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[Brockololly]

Thankfully, it looks like they're casting Edmure Tully for season 3!

Hopefully that means Hoster and the Blackfish too.

[Seagloom]

They are probably casting Edmure Tully out of sheer necessity. He is, after all, pivotal to a later event I'm sure all readers of A Storm of Swords is familiar with. I'm not expecting the Blackfish to appear at all. Hoster will probably get the same treatment Selyse Florent did. We'll see one character mention to another how he's sick up in his room and hasn't left it since.

[TJPags]

AxisEvolve wrote...

I keep trying to convince myself that they're only making "small" changes from the book. Then I realize that in making Jamie kill Alton he is now a kinslayer as well as a kingslayer. Does this bother anyone else? This changes the entire perspective of the character.

Indeed.  HORRIBLE change, IMO.  As KoP and others have pointed out, there was no need for it - he could have beaten him without killing him, they could have faked it, etc.  IMO, it's not in character, especially since it was so clearly unnecessary.

And I hate things like this about the show.

Brockololly wrote...

Thankfully, it looks like they're casting Edmure Tully for season 3!

Hopefully that means Hoster and the Blackfish too.

I have mixed feelings.  I'm glad he's not totally forgotten, but what's his significance going to be now?  Why will we care?  Doing it late is likely to diminish his impact, to me.

[Brockololly]

TJPags wrote...
Indeed.  HORRIBLE change, IMO.  As KoP and others have pointed out, there was no need for it - he could have beaten him without killing him, they could have faked it, etc.  IMO, it's not in character, especially since it was so clearly unnecessary.

I'm not a great fan of that change, and making Jaime a kinslayer is a stretch, but my bigger problem with Jaime last episode is potentially how it ends up affecting Cat's motivations...regarding something...

But at this point in the story Jaime is still pretty self centered and kind of an ****. **** enough to kill a cousin? Probably not, but he isn't particularly remorseful in the books when Alton Lannister's analogue gets killed either.

But that moment felt like it was another "made for TV drama" type moment.

TJPags wrote...
I have mixed feelings.  I'm glad he's not totally forgotten, but what's his significance going to be now?  Why will we care?  Doing it late is likely to diminish his impact, to me.

You figure if they introduce him in episode 1 next year, that'll give them a good amount of time. And they could keep the Blackfish around too, maybe even expand his role? Hoster they could probably keep offscreen or really marginalize though.

[TJPags]

Well, I worry that Edmure wasn't there to acclaim Robb King. His later appearance will have less of an impact (unless they somehow stick in him claiming fealty). Blackfish's aid to Robb is somehow absent, making him less vital. Edmure's absence thus far creates less reason for Robb to attend the wedding, after all.

It was a dramatic entrance, mainly for Edmure, in the books since it came when Robb lifts the seige of Riverrun, defeating and capturing Jaime in the process. Where's the drama now?

I view this as a "oh, yea, we need him for that scene, let's find an actor" kind of casting.

[Addai]

They haven't even *mentioned* the Tullys this season. They should have had Tywin talking about the Riverlands instead of random lords we've never heard of.

[LPPrince]

Just to switch gears a bit-

A cup of tea, one of the novels, and the full soundtrack to the show equates to a wondrous experience.

[Druss99]

I just looked into being an extra for season 3. Apparently you need to be both rich and jobless, with too much time on your hands and your own transport. It's a logistically challenged set up they have going on there.

[RedArmyShogun]

lol that sounds awesome in a twisted, this is why we can't have nice things, way.

[ReallyRue]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Yes. I don't like it. It changes Jaime in fundamental ways. It's a theme of his character that he's not actually much like Tywin, a shadow that haunts him his whole life.

Meanwhile Tywin is becoming more and more sympathetic.

I noticed that too, and I can't figure out why they would do such a thing. Surely it would make more sense to make Jaime more sympathetic, if they are going to make any of the Lannisters (aside from Tyrion) more sympathetic. My brother (who's never read the books) even said that he doesn't know why people dislike Tywin so much, because he 'seems like a pretty decent bloke'.

[LPPrince]

Probably setting Tywin up that way to surprise viewers later with...

Well, hahahaha

[RedArmyShogun]

ReallyRue wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Yes. I don't like it. It changes Jaime in fundamental ways. It's a theme of his character that he's not actually much like Tywin, a shadow that haunts him his whole life.

Meanwhile Tywin is becoming more and more sympathetic.

I noticed that too, and I can't figure out why they would do such a thing. Surely it would make more sense to make Jaime more sympathetic, if they are going to make any of the Lannisters (aside from Tyrion) more sympathetic. My brother (who's never read the books) even said that he doesn't know why people dislike Tywin so much, because he 'seems like a pretty decent bloke'.

I know what your getting at LLP.

I think most people don't like him for the same reason ned didn't. The whole switching sides have my son kill the king. The guy was a madman, loyality, oaths, or not, he needed to go. Course in some aspects the Lannisters went too far or so they think, won't spoil that bit.

But he seems like most leaders and he demands the best of those under him.

Its not his attitude, or even his plots why I dislike Tywin, all of those were needed by some rational and I'ld have done the same.

Rather his pride, its what pretty much caused a big majority of his troubles and eventual fate. But then again given the houses sign, and its historica and current importance it should be no surprise.

[LPPrince]

Still, I LOVE what they're doing with him in the show.

Tywin's one of my favorite parts of the program.

[billy the squid]

ReallyRue wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Yes. I don't like it. It changes Jaime in fundamental ways. It's a theme of his character that he's not actually much like Tywin, a shadow that haunts him his whole life.

Meanwhile Tywin is becoming more and more sympathetic.

I noticed that too, and I can't figure out why they would do such a thing. Surely it would make more sense to make Jaime more sympathetic, if they are going to make any of the Lannisters (aside from Tyrion) more sympathetic. My brother (who's never read the books) even said that he doesn't know why people dislike Tywin so much, because he 'seems like a pretty decent bloke'.

I haven't read the books, but I've got the impression that he is a hard, ruthless, yet intelligent man. But also is somewhat sympathetic, if only in private with Aryia, maybe because she reminds him of his daughter. Or that he feels able to speak in her presence without the need to show himself as the implacable head of House Lannister.

What he says to Jamie, about weakness in the eyes of others, whilst he doesn't care about the opinions of other, to appear weak would perhaps remind him of his father and the way his house was once viewed. The legacy he will pass down seems to be paramount in his mind, being resigned to the fact that his time is passing. Perhaps he fears that there is still work to do, to secure Lannister's position, but it's slipping from his grasp as the war and time progresses. Especially if his view of Tyrion as a the lowest of the Lannisters, although that might of changed, and Jamie squandering his skills compunded by the "madness and stupidity" of his grandson Joffrey troubles him.

[LPPrince]

You have to understand- Tywin is THE reason the Lannisters are as powerful as they are.

THE reason. He had to flip the switch after his father brought their family nearly down to ruin.

Now look. Thanks to Joffrey's sheer idiocy, the Lannisters are in trouble. They risk losing EVERYTHING, everything that he worked so damned hard to do.

The Lannister Legacy. Capital L for emphasis.

He's a powerful man, an intelligent man, and not exactly the kindest of people in Westeros, but he is a leader, a leader who's back is almost up against the wall.

Tough situation to be in for anyone, to be honest. I like how they explore all sides to his character- not just the hard military man, but the father figure in him.

Both sides of the father figure in him. His wary kindness with Arya, his lack of care with Tyrion, his emphatic defense of Jaime(when appropriate).

He is a multi-faceted character, and a hell of a damned good one.

Sometimes I want to hate him. Sometimes I want to like him.

No matter what, I respect him.

Maybe its just me, but I love how the show explores all that.

[RedArmyShogun]

Yeah Joff is pretty much a giant screw up. If not for his dealing with Stark none of this would of happend. I mean the Kingdom would be far from stable, I'm sure the two brothers would have started crap, but the Starks at least would have set it out. And you still got the problem across the seas. But beats a war with every little state screaming I AM THE KING!

[LPPrince]

Funny thing is, everyone KNOWS Joffrey's a screw up.

But rules are rules, even if Joff's right as King is total bull.

[Addai]

Erm, I think they're changing Tywin significantly and I don't like it. How would you understand the terror that his kids have for him by how he's acting with Arya? They're good scenes, they're just not GRRM's material. He should be called Lywin Flannister or something.

Meanwhile Jaime is now homicidal psycho.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't quite agree with that. I think Tywin is softening up because his son is captured. In that scene when he was talking about how he taught Jaime how to read, I think his fatherly instincts and love are reemerging in the form of enjoying Arya's company. But he never acts soft or nice. He rarely even smiles.

I can see very well how Jaime, Cersei and especially Tyrion would fear their father. But I can also see how Tywin loves his children, especially Jaime, but doesn't like to show weakness. Also he's growing old. Old people can get sentimental like that.

[LPPrince]

Eh, some dads are like that.

My dad put me through hell and he knows it. Though he had good intentions.

Still, doesn't change the fact that I've got horrendous memories. Great terms still, since he's dad, but you know. Tough.

Same goes for Tywin and company. Don't know to what extent, but its there.

[billy the squid]

Addai67 wrote...

Erm, I think they're changing Tywin significantly and I don't like it. How would you understand the terror that his kids have for him by how he's acting with Arya? They're good scenes, they're just not GRRM's material. He should be called Lywin Flannister or something.

Meanwhile Jaime is now homicidal psycho.

I think that's why I'm going to hold off reading the books at least for a short spell, I may read the first on if I get time. Try and look at each one, TV and books seperately, rather than try and impose the facets of one upon the other, I'll just get disappointed, and I've liked the TV show so far, and from what I've heard the books are very good.

I don't think Jamie is homicidal. Look at the conversation he has with Catelyn Staark, regarding the knightly vows. He's a pragmatist, he doesn't view the world through the code of the knights. Look at the king's guard who serves Joffrey and beats Sansa, supposedly a knight.

His loyalty to his sister, when they tried to stop him entering the room when she was giving birth, he persues Ned Staark when his wife kidnaps his brother. I think he inherits, his father's ruthless streak, but he seems more overtly carring of his family, compaired to his father, Tywin, who remains aloof his main concern seemingly his name and how he and his House will be remembered.

Modifié par billy the squid, 17 mai 2012 - 08:27 .

[Seagloom]

Tywin's season two characterization muddies the history and development of his three children. It also runs contrary to how he was portrayed in season one. Remember that speech he gave Jaime about the Lannister name while cleaning that stag? That scene succinctly states everything anyone needs to know about who Tywin is.

He is not a caring father. All Tywin is concerned with is the success of his house. He dismisses Tyrion's potential solely for being a dwarf and killing his wife--an occurrence Tyrion had no control over. He dismisses Cersei for being a woman. Nevermind that she is a capable enough leader with a sharp grasp of politics in Westeros. Jaime, Tywin's former golden boy, is a disappointment for being something a dolt and joining the Kingsguard against his wishes.

A big part of the dynamic between the three Lannister children is rooted in Tywin's cold, loveless relationship with each of them--something his season two development threatens to hurl out a window.

If Tywin cared about his children as a father at all, the Tysha mess would not have gone down as it did. Cersei might not have grown up to be quite as twisted either. In a story full of bad fathers, he is one of the worst. The only thing Tywin has on someone like say, Randall Tarly, is bullheaded persistence.

Modifié par Seagloom, 17 mai 2012 - 09:04 .

[Addai]

What Seagloom said. Again, I don't think it'd be bad- if it were another show and another family. As it is, these aren't the Lannisters.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't know how Tywin is in the books and frankly I don't care. I find this Tywin very compelling. A strict father who perhaps didn't show affection to his children, but loved them nonetheless.

[Seagloom]

It isn't strictly about the books. It's about logical inconsistency within the program itself. The Tywin in season two shares very little in common with Tywin in season one. You know, the same guy that put his son in the vanguard of his forces where he would likely die? That is not the action of a strict but loving father.

Even if I overlooked that, the real issue is not so much Tywin himself. I could ignore his softening around Arya. The issue is his behavior makes some of Cersei, Tyrion, and Arya's characterization senseless.

Maybe these changes will not matter if future storylines in GoT are altered as drastically as where Dany's story has gone this season. If they take the same basic route as the books, however, I can guarantee Cersei, Tyrion, and Arya's future actions will include a few serious WTF disconnect moments. You can't change a character that much and leave everything else around him untouched. Not when he influences as many others as Tywin did. The groundwork just isn't there otherwise.

It will end up worse than how Jon Snow has been handled so far.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 mai 2012 - 02:57 .