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[KnightofPhoenix]

He never liked Tyrion, this much is evident and his actions with Arya do not show that he ever liked Tyrion, so there is no inconsistency there. The way I see it, he's seeing Jaime when he was a boy in her. I don't believe this ruined Cersei's characterization either.

I really do not see any contradiction between Tywin in season 1 and 2. Him showing a bit of emotion doesn't suddenly make him a lovey dovey awesome cool dad. He's saying all this in the context of losing and probably missing his son.

No I am glad they took a more multi-dimensional approach, instead of make characters one-sided.

[Addai]

He doesn't much like Jaime, either, who was always too soft and went the disappointing route of being a Kingsguard so that he could be near Cersei.

[Savber100]

Seagloom wrote...

It isn't strictly about the books. It's about logical inconsistency within the program itself. The Tywin in season two shares very little in common with Tywin in season one. You know, the same guy that put his son in the vanguard of his forces where he would likely die? That is not the action of a strict but loving father.

"Let the boy win his spurs" - Edward III

The quote relates in how Tywin sees his son (in the HBO series anyways). While Tywin assumedly loves Jaime, he still desires to set his son up in a position of leadership. Tywin not only wants Jaime to see his own potential but also those around him. With Jaime's prowess in battle, it's a clever move to set Jaime up as a leader and a warrior, winning the admiration of those around him. A strict, loving father will not hesitiate to put his son into hardship and danger especially if his son goes stronger from it. 

Modifié par Savber100, 18 mai 2012 - 05:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

He doesn't much like Jaime, either, who was always too soft and went the disappointing route of being a Kingsguard so that he could be near Cersei.

Being dissapointed does not mean disliking.

Yes obviously Tywin who nearly saw the death of his house wants to make sure he is succeeded properly, so of course he is going to be dissapointed in Jaime whose only skill that is worth mentionning is dueling. That does not necessarily mean he does not love him.

[Addai]

Well, whatever. It doesn't ring true. Softening Cersei and Tywin while making Jaime more despicable and Joffrey more powerful are odd character choices.

Also it makes Tywin look like a dolt that he has Arya under his nose and doesn't realize it, when she's telegraphing very plainly who she is.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 mai 2012 - 05:24 .

[Tirigon]

Seagloom wrote...

It isn't strictly about the books. It's about logical inconsistency within the program itself. The Tywin in season two shares very little in common with Tywin in season one. You know, the same guy that put his son in the vanguard of his forces where he would likely die? That is not the action of a strict but loving father.

That's what happens if you make changes compared to the novels but still keep some things intact, even if they dont make sense in light o the changes.


By the way, that is exactly why I am not a friend of making ANY change at all in a movie adaptation of novels.

[Seagloom]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't know how Tywin is in the books and frankly I don't care. I find this Tywin very compelling. A strict father who perhaps didn't show affection to his children, but loved them nonetheless.

Children. Plural. I'm quoting this older post instead of your others because I still haven't read an explanation of when and where he has shown any shred of love for Cersei or Tyrion. Since you mentioned he does not care for Tyrion in a later post, I don't know where you this strict but loving father idea comes from when it only applies to Jaime at best.

Savber100 wrote...

"Let the boy win his spurs" - Edward III

The quote relates in how Tywin sees his son (in the HBO series anyways). While Tywin assumedly loves Jaime, he still desires to set his son up in a position of leadership. Tywin not only wants Jaime to see his own potential but also those around him. With Jaime's prowess in battle, it's a clever move to set Jaime up as a leader and a warrior, winning the admiration of those around him. A strict, loving father will not hesitiate to put his son into hardship and danger especially if his son goes stronger from it.

The difference here is one of perspective. What you see as tough love from a caring father, I see as calculating indifference from a proud man. Ignoring the books entirely, Tywin's every move even on GoT has been about elevating his house, maintaining its status, and satisfying his pride.

I do not see the love in any of his actions we have seen or been told of through his children. All I see is a megalomaniacal man who is suddenly being characterized as misunderstood where none of his past actions line up with it. An example of a tough love father and son relationship done right on this program is the relationship between Jeor Mormont and Jon Snow--and they aren't even related.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 mai 2012 - 11:28 .

[Eski.Moe]

I think the way you're seeing Tywin on the show is coloured by your perceptions of his character from his book. We know he's a cold hardass, who's ambitious and calculating and allow that to seep into the scenes that we see in the show. He can appear as merely pragmatic and hard but caring to some who view the show without any prior knowledge of the character. He also doesn't seem quite as nasty to Tyrion. Yes, he sends him with the vanguard but the way in which he speaks to him doesn't seem as cold or distant.
My dad's only exposure is to the show and he doesn't view Tywin the way I do.

In any case, I've managed to enjoy to show in a different way this season than I did last. It's sad and good at the same time. Previously, I had seen it as a projection of the books. Highly faithful with necessary cuts and was excited to see scenes play out. Now, I've had to distance the show from the books as a completely different beast in order to enjoy it. Otherwise, I would go mad with the changes that have happened and that will happen. Now, I just view it as a different interpretation of events. Still miffed about the exclusion of the Tullys. They're pretty big players in Westeros.

[Addai]

In other news, via Wic-net there was a season 3 casting call for extras under 5 feet tall. Speculation is that they are casting crannogmen and we could see Meera and Jojen Reed next season after all.

[Seagloom]

That may be true to an extent. However, it's a lose-lose situation regardless. Were I to accept Tywin is this warmer, misunderstood guy than he seems to me, it doesn't change that Cersei and Tyrion are played straight from the books. It makes some of their behavior come across as confusing because the influence from Tywin wouldn't be there if he is the character KnightofPhoenix and Savber100 believe him to be.

It's the same problem I have with Tyrion and Shae in GoT. In the books, I could understand why Tyrion was so smitten with her. On GoT, his personal attachment makes very little sense given her demanding and flippant attitude toward him at times.

Ditto with Jon Snow. In AGoT Catelyn tells him to his face it should have been him who broke his body instead of Bran. There is this palpable sense that Jon is not welcome at Winterfell in that conversation, and at the dinner feast prior. We get a bit of that on the program, but it is so subdued comparably it makes Jon come across as an ungrateful whiner. I mean, he doesn't seem to have it so bad at Winterfell in GoT compared to the novel.

The Shae and Jon examples are minor to me, though. Things I kind of groan about and move on from. Tywin's stuff is harder to sweep under the rug because his actions have a bigger ripple effect on the overall story.

---

As for the show being a seperate entity and separating oneself from the books to enjoy it. Well, I've been doing that since season one. The problem is I'm not enjoying GoT as its own entity even when I try my hardest not to compare it to the books. I enjoyed the books because of its characters and stories. When those characters and stories are shifted around in ways that aren't as compelling to me, they start to grow dull. It's as simple as that really. If the changes were improvements across the board I wouldn't care. I like what GoT has done with Varys, for example. Sadly not everyone feels so improved to me.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 mai 2012 - 03:51 .

[Eski.Moe]

Yeah, I agree with the Shae thing. Can't stand her in the show. She's just so abrasive and combative and I can't see why Tyrion would want to confide in her. She seems the opposite of what you'd want in a ****, lol.
Also, I disagree that Cersei is played straight from the books. She's a lot more sympathetic and understandable in the show. She displays a vulnerability that makes one empathise a bit with her. She's full on moustache twirling in the books.

[Seagloom]

I agree she is more sympathetic on the show, but oddly enough it hasn't done much to humanize her for me. Her actions are still mostly lifted from the books with the exception of not ordering the deaths of Robert's bastards. She still seems like one of the most unambigious characters in the story.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 mai 2012 - 04:17 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Seagloom wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't know how Tywin is in the books and frankly I don't care. I find this Tywin very compelling. A strict father who perhaps didn't show affection to his children, but loved them nonetheless.

Children. Plural. I'm quoting this older post instead of your others because I still haven't read an explanation of when and where he has shown any shred of love for Cersei or Tyrion. Since you mentioned he does not care for Tyrion in a later post, I don't know where you this strict but loving father idea comes from when it only applies to Jaime at best.

Plural because it's referring to Jaime and Cersei. Tyrion is a different matter, a dwarf who normally are killed after birth.

Love does not need to be shown. We never even see Tywin and Cersei in the same room. But for Tywin, family is everything. It may not be love as you understand it. But to suggest that he does not care for Cersei in the slightest and only sees her as an instrument? Then I haven't seen any explanation of that in the show either. I don't care about the books. 

@ Addai
Sure what they did with Jaime was stupid.
Not what they are doing with Tywin. Your book version sounds boring and one-sided to me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mai 2012 - 04:19 .

[Aeowyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't know how Tywin is in the books and frankly I don't care. I find this Tywin very compelling. A strict father who perhaps didn't show affection to his children, but loved them nonetheless.

Children. Plural. I'm quoting this older post instead of your others because I still haven't read an explanation of when and where he has shown any shred of love for Cersei or Tyrion. Since you mentioned he does not care for Tyrion in a later post, I don't know where you this strict but loving father idea comes from when it only applies to Jaime at best.

Plural because it's referring to Jaime and Cersei. Tyrion is a different matter, a dwarf who normally are killed after birth.

Love does not need to be shown. We never even see Tywin and Cersei in the same room. But for Tywin, family is everything. It may not be love as you understand it. But to suggest that he does not care for Cersei in the slightest and only sees her as an instrument? Then I haven't seen any explanation of that in the show either. I don't care about the books. 

@ Addai
Sure what they did with Jaime was stupid.
Not what they are doing with Tywin. Your book version sounds boring and one-sided to me.

How exactly is it boring and one-sided?

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Aeo

Seagloom wrote...
He is not a caring father. All Tywin is concerned with is the success of his house.

If Tywin cared about his children as a father at all

That, to me, sounds boring.

I prefer a Tywin who does care about his family (except Tyrion), but in his strictness and expectations, in addition to his father's weakness that nearly destroyed the family, acted in a way that did not convey love and affection explicitly. It's pretty clear, even from his talks with Arya, that he is an emotionally introverted man who doesn't like BS.  So I can see how the Lannisters ended up like they did, without having Tywin be an emotionless stone.

[Seagloom]

Oh, it isn't that Tywin is an emotionless stone in the books. It's that he's a ****** and a hypocrite. I can't explain why without ruining Tyrion's story in "A Storm of Swords", though.

[Aeowyn]

Edit: Seaglooms reply was better.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 18 mai 2012 - 04:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Seagloom wrote...

Oh, it isn't that Tywin is an emotionless stone in the books. It's that he's a ****** and a hypocrite. I can't explain why without ruining Tyrion's story in "A Storm of Swords", though.

Oh I am sure he is a ****** with Tyrion. He was clearly a ****** to him in season 1 as well, before Tyrion proved himself capable, because Tywin was so blind that he refused to see his talent.

[Eski.Moe]

You can't really judge Tywin's character in the books as 'boring' without having read them. Of course, most descriptions don't do him justice here. You just have to see him in action as you can't really sum him up adequately. The fact that he's a hardass through and through doesn't really make him a less interesting character than one that truly, deep down has a gooey centre and loves his kids very, very much.

You can still be a complete douche and be a multifaceted character.

@Seagloom - I found myself sympathising with her a lot more in the show. In the books, I always got the impression that she was really the puppetmaster behind Joff (the Ned beheading aside). He seemed much more amenable to her. Martin himself was surprised that people could sympathise with her at all in the books, so he made her a complete **** in AFFC.
She seems to be a complete narcissist in the books and I find that that aspect of her character has been toned down. I mean, she's quite obviously painted as one of the 'baddies', so to speak, but it's easier to find common ground.

[RedArmyShogun]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

Oh, it isn't that Tywin is an emotionless stone in the books. It's that he's a ****** and a hypocrite. I can't explain why without ruining Tyrion's story in "A Storm of Swords", though.

Oh I am sure he is a ****** with Tyrion. He was clearly a ****** to him in season 1 as well, before Tyrion proved himself capable, because Tywin was so blind that he refused to see his talent.

Thats mainly what leads to you know what. He's so blinded by his own pride that he can't see who is the best kid he has. Well in terms of a suitable Heir.

From what we've read and seen, its Obvious Tyrion was treated poortly and nothing much was expected of him. In fact I feel in the roles we've seen him in, most of them more so the Barbarian Attack was done by his father to purely get him killed. And then his sons diplomatic skills, and later commanding skills on the battlefield. He just scoffs at and thinks of as luck.

Even as hand he has to use his skills and even a bit of force to make the family listen to him, or least tolerate him. If not for his skills also at politics he wouldn't even have that, as most people we've seen him with from the "common" stock see him as nothing untill he proves himself. I dare say out of everyone we've seen in the books and show he might be the best to sit on the Iron throne, though higly unlikely, he did and does make an Effective hand.

[LPPrince]

Again, I'll say that they are setting Tywin up in the show so that a lot of fans who haven't read the books tend to be wary of him.

Leading up to the plotline with Tyrion in A Storm of Swords. Which I'm re-reading now, actually. haha

[The Hierophant]

LPPrince wrote...

Again, I'll say that they are setting Tywin up in the show so that a lot of fans who haven't read the books tend to be wary of him.

Leading up to the plotline with Tyrion in A Storm of Swords. Which I'm re-reading now, actually. haha

Oh boy, if they follow that plotline closely then alot of people will s*** bricks. That plotline cemented Tyrion as a triple OG for me. Since i haven't gotten a chance to watch the show since episode 1, a marathon viewing is in order.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 18 mai 2012 - 06:10 .

[RedArmyShogun]

They better keep his parts in line. Those were among the best in the whole book. More so the final bits. If they changed or done away with those, I would be highly Pissed.

[Costin_Razvan]

Seagloom wrote...

Oh, it isn't that Tywin is an emotionless stone in the books. It's that he's a ****** and a hypocrite. I can't explain why without ruining Tyrion's story in "A Storm of Swords", though.

However he treats Tyrion is irrelevant when you argue whether or not he cares about his entire family. I've finished reading book 3 recently and I thought he did obviously care about Jaime quite a bit, as well as getting the feeling he cared about his departed wife whose death he blames on Tyrion ( she died giving birth to him ).

Knight: Before you criticize the books I'd advise you to read them to know what exactly you are talking about not reach conclusions based on some words here.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 mai 2012 - 06:23 .

[Seagloom]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

However he treats Tyrion is irrelevant when you argue whether or not he cares about his entire family.

It is relevant to the argument of whether he cares or not about his *entire* family. Tyrion is a *part* of his family. Pfft.