11084 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

I'm quite curious to see where this goes in Season 3.

[sheppard7]

TJPags wrote...

10 extra minutes my hairy arse . . . .

Waste of 10 minutes of HD recording on my DVR for ads for other things. HBO trolled us.

[TJPags]

LPPrince wrote...

I'm quite curious to see where this goes in Season 3.

I am also.

But in the same way that I'm curious if anyone died in that accident delaying traffic . . . it's a morbid curiosity now.

[TJPags]

And why the hell did Robb get married by a Septon, reciting the Seven, instead of in front of a heart tree???

[LPPrince]

Because it was a minor detail they figured people would overlook.

[Brockololly]

TJPags wrote...

And why the hell did Robb get married by a Septon, reciting the Seven, instead of in front of a heart tree???

Same reason a couple episodes back when Karstark was confronting Cat about letting Jaime go, I remember he made some remark or something about praying to the Warrior....except he's a Northerner and should be praying to the Old Gods.

Sure, it seems like a small detail, but its those small details when added together that makes the whole thing hopefully make sense.

[TJPags]

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And why the hell did Robb get married by a Septon, reciting the Seven, instead of in front of a heart tree???

Same reason a couple episodes back when Karstark was confronting Cat about letting Jaime go, I remember he made some remark or something about praying to the Warrior....except he's a Northerner and should be praying to the Old Gods.

Sure, it seems like a small detail, but its those small details when added together that makes the whole thing hopefully make sense.

which is why so little makes sense to me . . . .

[LPPrince]

Oh for God's sake.

So a friend of mine is like, "Duhh...umm...who r teh snow zombies lol"

I explain.

Then she's like, "so r tehy going to war"

I sarcastically respond that no, they're actually going to have a massive tea party.

I then tell her that she'd of known who they were(The Others/White Walkers) if she remembered them from the beginning of the first episode or if she read the novels.

Not only did she never watch the first three episodes of the GoT, but she didn't even know...it...is...based...on...books.

Argh.

*flips desk*

Modifié par LPPrince, 04 juin 2012 - 04:41 .

[LPPrince]

I know why I'm so pissed.

Its not that she didn't know the books exist or that she missed the first three episodes and didn't think to go back and watch them.

Its her spelling and grammar.

That is DEFINITELY it.

Moving on...

EDIT-

She must be GMag.

Modifié par LPPrince, 04 juin 2012 - 04:41 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that 20 men burnt most of Winterfell to the ground, and the 500 men who were laying siege had no problem with that and evidently let them just walk away once they handed over Theon?

[chunkyman]

Hahahaha stupid Theon. That was priceless.

Not a great episode, they did a somewhat poor job of both pacing things and wrapping things up. I was confused about multiple things as well.

Why did the whitewalkers leave Samwell alive? Do fat people make poor wights?

[Gibb_Shepard]

ReconTeam wrote...

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that 20 men burnt most of Winterfell to the ground, and the 500 men who were laying siege had no problem with that and evidently let them just walk away once they handed over Theon?

That didn't make any sense at all. 

Also, does anyone know if Jon and the other guy planned out the killing before hand? Or was Jon completely ignorant and just killed him because he got his feelings hurt?

I know the other guy told him that he had to gain their trust, but i don't know if Jon understood that that meant the other guy's death.

[Brockololly]

Anyway, it was a decent finale with some very nice moments, but I can't help but feel like the various small liberties they've taken along the way in the season have now snowballed up where I'm not as excited for the show from an adaptation standpoint.

A lot of time in watching an adaptation of something I get my enjoyment out of it from seeing characters or events or locations onscreen that I had imagined. And part of my issue with some of season 2 is that they're either skipping memorable moments I had from A Clash of Kings or drastically changing characters or character motivations.

This episode is a pretty good example where smaller changes from the books culminate in what I thought was a pretty convoluted episode, talking to a couple of my friends who haven't read the books.


Like the lack of Ramsay/Reek on screen completely deflates the Theon storyline and the sacking of Winterfell. Theon's story was one of the better adaptations this season but what should be a mult-twist ending just sort of deflates like a sad balloon without Reek/Ramsay on screen. The shot of Winterfell burning and Maester Luwin's death is poignant, sure, but its more poignant in the book when the Bran/Rickon reveal that they're alive is saved until they emerge from the crypts, finding Luwin at the Godswood and him being happy to see them alive.

And the whole burning of Winterfell thing is something I'm seeing people confused about, when its not at all a point of confusion in the books, because of the Ramsay reveal which is shocking, as is his turn on Theon. Instead, the show finishes Theon's arc with a whimper. They should have had it more clear what Ramsay's role was, but they felt it best to basically keep the plot point from the book the same but leave out the person triggering the plot point.

The House of the Undying stuff was ok. In retrospect I'm ok with them not showing some of the visions from the book since they'd likely be too obvious. But they could have tossed in some more just to make it more bizarre and truly otherworldly. Again, its ok, but what I imagined was so much more interesting.

I guess thats the difference between HBO and a Hollywood movie though: you'll ideally get the character depth but not the spectacle. Certainly something like Blackwater was spectacle, but the great thing about the books is how as the books keep going, you get more fantastical stuff and more spectacle. How is the show going to cope with that? But then on the flip side, you negate the positives of characterization when you squander certain plotlines like Arya and Jon.

Oh, Jon. What were the producers thinking in royally screwing up his arc? Qhorin and his rangers are supposed to be some of the most badass Night's Watch guys around. This was supposed to be Jon's time to get a solid grounding in that he is a man of the Night's Watch and when he learns from Qhorin how to be a leader. Instead he mopes around being Mr. Indecisive getting told sex jokes by Ygritte. The thing that irks me that Jon will spend boat loads of time with Ygritte next season and they screwed over Qhorin. Not to mention, in the books, Jon cannot beat Qhorin without the timely intervention of Ghost biting Qhorin. WHERE THE HELL IS GHOST?!

Arya...eh. Yeah, we got the face changing Jaqen and the coin. But by this point, Arya should have orchestrated her escape from Harrenhal by HERSELF. And she kills a guy to do so, BY HERSELF. Her experience in Harrenhal was supposed to harden her up considerably and be truly damaging to her little kid psyche. Thats what needs to happen for her future developments to not seem forced and ridiculous.

And then stuff like the ending. Great! Very cool moment. I loved seeing the zombie horse and the Other, although I wish they made the actual Others more visually distinct from the Wights. Just make the Others have some icy armor so they look a little more dangerous and distinct from the ragged Wights. I always pictured the Others/White Walkers as more like Icy Nazgul- they're not zombies at all as GRRM has said, yet their show depiction makes it seem like they aren't much different than the Wights.

And I guess the imagery of the Wights coming out to attack the Fist isn't quite as cool as I pictured it in the book. Doesn't that happen at night or dawn in the books? And then of course in the books, the Fist is surrounded by trees, which cover up the Wight's advance. Cool addition to mask their advance with the snow storm though.

What else...
No Loras joining the Kingsguard? I did like Sansa's happiness at getting her betrothal broken off, quickly followed by creeper Littlefinger.

I get how they want Brienne to be a badass, but she is straight up murderous, when in the books, its a point of her character that despite being a badass fighter its not for a while that she actually kills a man. Show Brienne has killed tons of people by now.

Nobody cares about Ros, producers. Please. Stop.

The show is making Cat look incredibly stupid. Not only does she let Jaime go without the trigger of Bran and Rickon being "dead" (by the way when are they going to tell Cat and Rob that?) but she lets Robb get married? Its a point in the books that Robb does that on his own while Cat is away and she can't do anything about it. And of course, the King in the North gets married under the Seven, not the Old Gods. Sure, that makes sense...?

TV Stannis is awesome. Kind of curious they didn't do anything with Davos...

I actually liked TV Shae and Tyrion this episode. *sigh*

And Dany kills more characters that are still among the living in the books.


My issue with the show is that basically they're taking liberties with some things that are likely going to end up screwing things majorly down the road, and with not much good reason. They're hitting main plot points more or less but then rearranging and excising certain things that weaken characterization of certain characters and make certain events that are easy to understand and exciting and thrilling in their reveals and conclusions in the book, sort of putter out and become matter of fact on the show.

Hopefully they don't screw up A Storm of Swords too badly, since its the best book. But part of the problem is how they're already off track based on some of the changes they made this season.

Not a bad season by any stretch, but faaaaaar less faithful to the books than season 1. Some changes were certainly necessary but many (mostly ones of characterization) were not, and I think the show suffered for it.

[Han Shot First]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that 20 men burnt most of Winterfell to the ground, and the 500 men who were laying siege had no problem with that and evidently let them just walk away once they handed over Theon?

That didn't make any sense at all. 

Also, does anyone know if Jon and the other guy planned out the killing before hand? Or was Jon completely ignorant and just killed him because he got his feelings hurt?

I know the other guy told him that he had to gain their trust, but i don't know if Jon understood that that meant the other guy's death.

In the book it is more or less planned out a ahead of time though the encounter with the Wildings plays out differently. In the book Jon and Quorin are both trying to evade capture by the Wildings, and Qhorin makes Jon swear that if they get cornered, that he'd yield and pretend to be a deserter so that the Wildings will take him in and Jon can get intel on them. They do get captured and Jon does as he's ordered, but the Wildings make him fight and kill Qhorin to prove his sincerity.

In the series the 'plan' seems more one sided with Jon being caught somewhat off guard by Qhorin attacking him.

In both however Qhorin is intentionally sacrificing his life so that they'll believe Jon is a traitor to the Night's Watch, and take him in.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 04 juin 2012 - 06:17 .

[Addai]

ReconTeam wrote...

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that 20 men burnt most of Winterfell to the ground, and the 500 men who were laying siege had no problem with that and evidently let them just walk away once they handed over Theon?

Well.... yes, think about it.  That's all I'm going to say. 

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...
The House of the Undying stuff was ok. In retrospect I'm ok with them not showing some of the visions from the book since they'd likely be too obvious. But they could have tossed in some more just to make it more bizarre and truly otherworldly. Again, its ok, but what I imagined was so much more interesting.

No Rhaegar.  That's all I've got to say about that. 

[Brockololly]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that 20 men burnt most of Winterfell to the ground, and the 500 men who were laying siege had no problem with that and evidently let them just walk away once they handed over Theon?

That didn't make any sense at all. 

Also, does anyone know if Jon and the other guy planned out the killing before hand? Or was Jon completely ignorant and just killed him because he got his feelings hurt?

I know the other guy told him that he had to gain their trust, but i don't know if Jon understood that that meant the other guy's death.

I want to explain this to you guys because its 2 things I think the show handled very poorly, whereas in the books they not only make sense, but when you get to these big moments they're damn good.



CLASH OF KINGS SPOILERS




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In the books with Jon, he decisively lets Ygritte go. Halfhand is ok with this and gives Jon a little lesson in being a leader- that knowing your men is the most important thing for a leader and Qhorin knows more about Jon than he did before since he let Ygritte go as opposed to killing her. They then see an eagle following them...turns out this eagle is a skinchanging Wildling.  Jon wargs into Ghost in a dream (like Bran does) to see the giant Wildling camp that has giants and mammoths and shadowcats and chariots of bone- crazy stuff. The eagle catches Ghost spying and slashes him, waking up Jon. He tells Qhorin what happened and they agree to get Ghost and get the hell back to the Fist of the First Men as they've been spotted by the Wildlings (the eagle). As they're starting to leave, they hear horns behind them- its the Wildlings chasing them. The other Rangers stay back at certain points to hold off the Wildlings to give Jon and Qhorin extra time to escape, but eventually Jon and Qhorin are cornered and they talk. Qhorin has Jon recite the Night's Watch oath again and they get cornered by Rattleshirt, Ygritte and some wildlings. Its fairly clear here that Qhorin trusts Jon to be a double agent and they fight, with Ghost having to bite Qhorin to give Jon an opening to kill him, because Qhorin is that good.



As for Winterfell, it was Ramsay Bolton and the Northmen that burned down Winterfell, not Theon's men. In the books, Ramsay Bolton is an ****. He forcefully marries a woman so he can become heir to her lands and then he tosses her in his dungeon. Rodrick takes some men to straighten that situation out  and they supposedly kill Ramsay and take Ramsay's servant, Reek, captive and bring him back to Winterfell. Once Theon takes over, Reek helps Theon. When Yara refuses to give Theon men to reinforce Winterfell, Reek volunteers to go out and bribe or otherwise recruit  men to help Theon's cause. Theon is desparate and agrees. In the books at this point, Rodrick has been out with the Winterfell men fighting the decoy force Theon left by the shore. But Rodrick comes back with a good number of men and surrounds Winterfell. Theon thinks he is screwed. But out of no where a force under the banner of house Bolton comes and destroys the Northern army laying siege to WInterfell and Rodrick is killed. Theon is glad for the help and lets the Bolton force into Winterfell. The leader of the Bolton force takes off his helmet to reveal himself as...Reek. "Reek" reveals to Theon that he is actually Ramsay Bolton and he switched places with his servant Reek back when Rodrick was after Ramsay. And Ramsay is the type of guy that makes Joffrey look like a saint. Ramsay then knocks out Theon, kills just about everyone and burns Winterfell to the ground.

[Brockololly]

Oh, and the White Walker guy totally reminded me of Draugr from Skyrim.

And while HotU lacked Rhaegar, I wonder if that scene in the throne room looking all overtaken by winter has any bearing on the books?

Modifié par Brockololly, 04 juin 2012 - 06:45 .

[Chewin]

Well I enjoyed this episode. Though the pacing was a bit poor imo, but they managed to bring the pieces together and set up some plot point for season three. As a non book reader, my expectations weren't that high for most of the major scenes (obviously since I don't know what to expect). But I heard David and Dan have talked about how they are now adapting the series as a whole and how things are being moved around -- so maybe we'll see more down the line that some people think should've be in Season 2 - maybe they'll pop back up again, or not I have no clue.

ReconTeam wrote...
Am I the only one bothered by the fact that 20 men burnt most of Winterfell to the ground, and the 500 men who were laying siege had no problem with that and evidently let them just walk away once they handed over Theon?

A bit derp, but they seemed to have followed Robb's orders passionately. Though I as well think it was dumb.

Modifié par Chewin3, 04 juin 2012 - 09:06 .

[twincast]

TJPags wrote...

I'm close to tears myself . . .that they so destroyed Dany and the House of the Undying in favor of . . well, whatever it is they did in there on the show. 

QFT. I can't eat enough to vomit as much as I want to.

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...
And Ros . . . my god, someone eviscerate that woman

My hope is that since the show killed off Marillion in season 1, they'll find a way to use her for Marillion's role in A Storm of Swords...[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]

Well, frankly ASoS's bard being Marillion is merely a nice bit of continuity, nothing crucial by any means, so let them cast another bard for that. Ros would make less sense than in anything she's done before -- which is saying quite a lot. I still don't get why she let Cersei take her when she had no bond at all with Tyrion and more importantly without his threat to do to Tommen any harm Cersei does to her she wasn't even remotely safe. As for Irri's part... using one of her later "children" would work, but the comparative lack of history between them does somewhat diminish it.

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Oh, and Robb's wedding . . .

Yeah, I got up and stirred the curry during that.  What a maroon.

I think that's the problem- every time there's something good, the next scene switches to something that makes me facepalm or just bored.

@ TJ Pags- I'm sure they thought Dany's visions would confuse the TV audience, so they had "tender family moment" instead.

Blegh.

sheppard7 wrote...

I can't see how they can be remotely close to ASoS for season 3.

Too
bad too. Season 1 was pretty close to the first book but this season had too many changes. I guess Rickon and Shaggydog will be around more than in the books since I doubt Bran and Hodor goes one way and Rickon goes with Asha in another.

And wasn't Ghost in book 2 a LOT more than season 2 of the show or was that my imagination?

They appear so rarely by now I tend to forget they even exist, but yeah, Jon being an unwilling captive would not got over well with Ghost if he actually bothered to show up again.  ... in short: Blegh.

ReconTeam wrote...

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that 20 men burnt most of Winterfell to the ground, and the 500 men who
were laying siege had no problem with that and evidently let them just walk away once they handed over Theon?

Actually that's not what happened. They were betrayed in trademark Bolton fashion. Oddly enough it's one of the very few things the show doesn't spell out clearly three times over, but it's there if you pay attention to it.

chunkyman wrote...

Hahahaha stupid Theon. That was priceless.

Not a great episode, they did a somewhat poor job of both pacing things and wrapping things up. I was confused about multiple things as well.

Why did the whitewalkers leave Samwell alive? Do fat people make poor wights?

Yeah, that's so ... Hollywood. Blegh.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Also, does anyone know if Jon and the other guy planned out the killing before hand? Or was Jon completely
ignorant and just killed him because he got his feelings hurt?

I know the other guy told him that he had to gain their trust, but i don't know if Jon understood that that meant the other guy's death.

Yeah, in the books Qhorin has to do some major convincing while they prepare their stand-off in a cave to get Jon to do the deed, but on the show he merely hints at it, so I'm not sure if duncey show!Jon understood and frankly it came across as Jon getting actually overpowered by battle rage. Meh.

Brockololly wrote...
Oh, and the White Walker guy totally reminded me of Draugr from Skyrim.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Heh, me too!

All in all: some good moments, some bad moments. To be honest I was plain bored throughout most of the episode. Meh.

Modifié par twincast, 04 juin 2012 - 09:35 .

[Dave of Canada]

I was excited for House of the Undying all season.

I was disappointed.

[Fiery Knight]

Chewin3 wrote...
(...) But I heard David and Dan have talked about how they are now adapting the series as a whole and how things are being moved around -- so maybe we'll see more down the line that some people think should've be in Season 2 - maybe they'll pop back up again, or not I have no clue.

That's great! Where did you get this info? Not doubting you or anything, but just wanna know.

[Chewin]

From the internet, SO IT HAS TO BE LEGIT!

Nah, just heard it from somewhere. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Costin_Razvan]

I am afraid to even watch this episode...