11084 réponses à ce sujet

[LTD]

I'm really curious to see where HBO takes the story once the first three books are done.I'm guessing nobody is all that eager to see/film the whole Feast/Dance clusterhump on screen. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a " 5 years later.." type of a time jump right after Storm.

[Costin_Razvan]

Aeowyn: And who are you to tell me I am arrogant, why is your opinion so damned important over others? What just because you like some character and argue that their motivations means their actions are not stupid? This is not about justifications for their actions but classification. 

Here's a bloody fact: I don't give a spit for most of the Starks, except Sansa and Jon, and I do not have to care to enjoy the books because there are many more characters in them, and yes most if not all of them do stupid things, as every single human does in real life. 

You have no argument to show that Catelyn's actions were not idiotic, as were Ned's and Robb's with Jeyne. You do not excuse actions based on motivations alone. I did feel sympathy for all of them though, Ned when his guard was slaughtered and he was executed. Catelyn when she....welll you know well what, but that doesn't mean I should ignore the fact that they are responsible for where they ended, because they ALL are and that is why I don't care a huge amount for their fates. Sansa is different because she ended up in a **** situation not of her own personal doing. Yes she was partly responsible for that, but Ned was going to be betrayed by Littlefinger one way or another.

Saying Catelyn's actions are not stupid is like saying Cersei's are not stupid. Cersei also has her reasons for doing what she does, that does not make her actions any less destructive or idiotic.

Also because a person does an idiotic thing doesn't mean I can't feel compasion for them. To me the main draw of the novels, or one of the main draws at any rate, is seeing these characters make choices, proactive and reactive, seeing their motivations, their feelings on their choices, the consequences in how people react and how those choices end. I don't like many choices any of the characters make ( from Daenerys and Tyrion who are my favorites to my least favorite character Arya ), but I do like seeing them play out for good or ill.

Of course you don't have to share my views, but neither do I have to share yours.

 
I'm guessing nobody is all that eager to see/film the whole Feast/Dance clusterhump on screen. 

I wanted to punch Cersei in the face for the stupid **** she did in Feast, and Dany at certain points in Dance.

But really I heard complaints about those two books being a borefost, especially Feast...but in the end I liked them. I lked reading Sansa, Jon, Cersei, Jaime, Danny, Arianne.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 juin 2012 - 11:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

How can anyone argue that what Robb did wasn't stupid?

It may be understandable and sympathetic, that doesn't stop it from being stupid. That single act sabotaged the war effort for jeopardizing the single most important geo-strategic point for the Starks, and it wasn't even *necessary.* It was very easily avoidable. He could have just ****ed her without marriage and be done with it. And don't tell me he cared about honor, it's clear he didn't when he decided to break a vow and put at risk his entire army, for a woman. Either way he was losing his honor, he could have lost it in a less idiotic fashion.

That doens't mean I don't like Robb, because I do, and I like this turn of events. That doesn't absolve Robb for being a sentimental idiot. I dare say it was even more stupid than what MAric did with Katriel, because the risks were so much more obvious in GoT. 

PS: China's Three Kigndoms 2010 pwns GoT as a show.
I got so addicted to it that I haven't even watched season 2 finale and I am not that interested to.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 juin 2012 - 02:54 .

[Addai]

Both Catelyn's and Robb's actions are more understandable the way they're presented in the books- that they both think Bran and Rickon are dead. The Stark name is close to being extinguished.  Robb is the only remaining male heir and he's out front in battle.  Think about Ned's statement "Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years" and consider what that thought could make you do when you're the ones responsible. The Starks aren't like the Lannisters- they won't do anything to win- but they do know how to survive. Cat is desperate to get the girls back, Robb initially just has a moment of weakness but then gets obsessed with the idea of having a son. It's somewhat a repeat of Rhaegar Targaryen, actually.

In the TV show, they're just dumb.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juin 2012 - 03:16 .

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

Both Catelyn's and Robb's actions are more understandable the way they're presented in the books- that they both think Bran and Rickon are dead. The Stark name is close to being extinguished.  Robb is the only remaining male heir and he's out front in battle.  Think about Ned's statement "Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years" and consider what that thought could make you do when you're the ones responsible. The Starks aren't like the Lannisters- they won't do anything to win- but they do know how to survive. Cat is desperate to get the girls back, Robb initially just has a moment of weakness but then gets obsessed with the idea of having a son. It's somewhat a repeat of Rhaegar Targaryen, actually.

In the TV show, they're just dumb.

More understandable, more sympathetic, yes.

Still dumb,

Cat's distress is completely understandable in the books - Bran and Rikkon dead, Sansa and Arya prisoners (as she thinks), Robb in danger due to battle.  However, freeing Jaime as she did - dumb.  Send a message, offer to trade the girls for him.  That's at least smarter then letting him go with no guarantees.  And without thinking how this will effect Robb's support and position.  She's supposed to be the adult here.

Robb - Again, yes more understandable.  Brothers dead, sisters captive, himself wounded, he's still young, remember (younger than in the show), he falls for this sweet girl, etc.  However, again, love?  No, infatuation at best, which people his age (16 in the books?  15?) can mistake for love easily.  And protecting her honor at the expense of the war effort, his men, showing up Walder Frey - a man who can't be trusted, he's told that repeatedly - that way, and then . . .well, doing what he does (trying to avoid spoilers).

Understandable?  Sure.  Still dumb, and shortsighted.  Both of them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The obsession with an heir is not a good excuse, he could have married the woman he was supposed to marry and father a son with her.

And if he doesn't want to be related to the lord of the bridge, he can betray him after he no longer needs the bridge.

[Dave of Canada]

The obsession with an heir sort of stems more from the fact that the marriage isn't for any time soon, Robb wants to father an heir asap (incase he falls in battle between then and the marriage) and Starks--being creatures of idealistic stupi- honor--wouldn't ever want to father a bastard (Including Eddard, as it's pretty much certain he's not Jon's father).

Does Robb appear stupid in both versions? Of course.

Does the TV show version make him appear far worse? Yup.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juin 2012 - 03:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

If he was that worried about it, he could have gone to the bridge, demanded a marriage and had sex asap. Anything other than compromising the war effort and putting at risk his own life and the lives of his men.

But yea, it seems the show version is more stupid, though I won't say by that much. Both versions are very stupid and for their mistake, I'd say the Starks deserve to lose.

[Costin_Razvan]

I'd conclude Robb is worse in the TV show whereas Catelyn is better for why she freed Jaime ( the Karkstarks were going to kill him that night ).

And if he doesn't want to be related to the lord of the bridge, he can betray him after he no longer needs the bridge. 

There is another crossing other then the bridge, what's important is that a quarter of Robb's army came from Walder Frey. A bloody ****ing quarter.

Robb is a good general but I wouldn't call him great either. I was thinking that instead of rushing for Riverrun he could have outflanked Tywin's army at Green Fork and likely ( since Tywin did not expect Walder Frey to join Robb ) won due to that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 juin 2012 - 03:56 .

[Savber100]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

PS: China's Three Kigndoms 2010 pwns GoT as a show.
I got so addicted to it that I haven't even watched season 2 finale and I am not that interested to.

This intrigues me... Being a sucker for historical/political/war dramas (and Asian), do you know where I can find copies of this? Also do they have dubbed versions or is it just subs? :happy:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
There
is another crossing other then the bridge, what's important is that a
quarter of Robb's army came from Walder Frey. A bloody ****ing quarter.

*facepalm*

But I see the show is terrible at this, as I didn't know either fact.

Savber100 wrote...
This intrigues me... Being a sucker for historical/political/war dramas (and Asian), do you know where I can find copies of this? Also do they have dubbed versions or is it just subs? :happy:

http://www.ancientch...msg5728#msg5728

And I am sure you can find a place to stream it if you google search. And I only looked for subs, I don't like most dubbing and I doubt there is one.

It's awesome. I'm a bit disappointed in some omissions since I studied the period. But overall, it's brilliant.

[Costin_Razvan]

*facepalm*

But I see the show is terrible at this, as I didn't know either fact.

Robb has 16.000 men with which he marches south, after Catelyn makes the arrangement with Walder Frey they join Robb with their 4.000 men, I believe it is mentioned that Frey does have 4.000 men at least.

In regards to the other crossing, it's called Green Fork. It's south of the Twins.

Tywin positioned his army there to stop Robb Stark from reaching Riverrun, since that crossing is the closest one that would lead in the Riverlands from the North besides the Twins themselves. In the book Robb takes his entire cavalry, crosses the twins and moves on Riverrun, all in all 4.000 riders with him. Meanwhile Roose Bolton takes the entire infantry, 16.000 men and attacks Tywin. Twyin wins, decimates a third of Bolton's army but does not pursue them since he gets a message that Robb is moving to Riverrun.

Tywin force marches his army to stop Robb, but since Robb has a full on cavalary force he manages to get there first and defeat Jaime Lannister's 15.000 men, capturing or killing all of them except 2.000 who managed to escape to link up with Tywin. 

In the show instead Robb sends a diversion force of 2.000 men against Tywin while he marches with both cavalary and infantry on Riverrun....well show creators are idiots if they think that's a plausible battle scenario. Tywin could just said **** it right there, left his infantry ( which numbered over 10.000 ) and marched his over 8.000 horsemen against Robb and stopped him from reaching Jaime.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 juin 2012 - 04:09 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The obsession with an heir is not a good excuse, he could have married the woman he was supposed to marry and father a son with her.

And if he doesn't want to be related to the lord of the bridge, he can betray him after he no longer needs the bridge.

He's afraid he won't survive that long.

[Costin_Razvan]

Robb did not marry Jeyne because of that. Blackwater had not occurred, Winterfell had not yet been sacked by Ramsay and he still had his alliance with the Freys. 

The conversation between Catelyn and Robb where he states he is afraid occurs much latter.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 juin 2012 - 07:29 .

[Seagloom]

I'm surprised this is an argument. Everyone in this story has their glaring moments of human error. From Robb and his failings as a leader to Tywin and the repercussions of his arrogant blindness toward his children. Unsurprisingly, everyone in this story also suffers to some degree sooner or later.

Part of what makes ASoIaF compelling reading is that you can see the motivations behind everyone's actions, and understand why characters do what they do. You may not always be able to sympathize with their decisions, but you can at least understand them.

The only difference I see between the two sides of this argument is that one side is willing to forgive two characters their foibles while the other is not.

For my piece, I think Robb and Catelyn were blockheads. Always have. I also think, especially in Catelyn's case, that her actions were completely justified from her perspective. She was a desperate mother that lost two of her children, then discovers two more are dead while the last is on the front lines of a war. She was desperate, plain and simple. It doesn't make what she did right, but it does make sense when examined from her perspective. None of these characters possess the omniscient viewpoint we do as readers.

This all applies to the novel versions, by the way. GoT's counterparts are such pale shadows that some character's actions come across as wholly illogical on every level.

Modifié par Seagloom, 15 juin 2012 - 10:24 .

[TheChris92]

Finished Season 1 recently. I gotta say that I liked how it was wrapped, definitely made me beg for more and not too soon. I think I'm gonna put season 2 on hold 'till I've actually finished reading the first book. Good thing too, considering there'll be some time yet 'till season 3 is out anyway. Lots of time to spend on reading the first book.

Modifié par TheChris92, 15 juin 2012 - 10:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The obsession with an heir is not a good excuse, he could have married the woman he was supposed to marry and father a son with her.

And if he doesn't want to be related to the lord of the bridge, he can betray him after he no longer needs the bridge.

He's afraid he won't survive that long.

And like I said 2 comments after, if it was that urgent, he could have gone back to the bridge, demanded a marriage asap and did the deed.

However you spin it, what he did was stupid and there is no avoiding that.

[Sarquindi]

Almost have book three finished in the series... I wonder how they will do Bran's story in season three of the HBO series. :/ They haven't mentioned him being a skinchanger once, and they excluded the reeds. This has probably been mentioned previously. There's just a lot of pages to read. I was really sad to see all of that left out... and I'm curious to see how they work around it.

[HoonDing]

Robb should've married Fugly Frey and just kept Whatshername as mistress/concubine. She came from a nobody noble family anyway. Like any self-respecting noble would do.

Even his oh so honourable Daddy had messed around before Catelyn henpecked him.

Marrying out of 'love' is the surest way to destroy your House (and that is from Dune).

Modifié par HoonDing, 15 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The obsession with an heir is not a good excuse, he could have married the woman he was supposed to marry and father a son with her.

And if he doesn't want to be related to the lord of the bridge, he can betray him after he no longer needs the bridge.

He's afraid he won't survive that long.

And like I said 2 comments after, if it was that urgent, he could have gone back to the bridge, demanded a marriage asap and did the deed.

However you spin it, what he did was stupid and there is no avoiding that.

I never said it wasn't.  I said the way it's presented in the books it is more understandable.  He is in the Westerlands, not the Riverlands, and is wounded by an arrow, finds out about Bran and Rickon- Jeyne Westerling nurses him- and there is also speculation that her family uses a love charm on him.   What I'm saying is that GRRM set it up better than the TV show did.  Much better.  In the TV show you have a guy following his dick.  In the books it is more complicated.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juin 2012 - 03:06 .

[Brockololly]

Seagloom wrote...
Part of what makes ASoIaF compelling reading is that you can see the motivations behind everyone's actions, and understand why characters do what they do. You may not always be able to sympathize with their decisions, but you can at least understand them.

*applaudes*

Thats what makes most of the characters in ASoIaF interesting- they're human and they make human mistakes. They screw up. And the interesting thing is seeing how they try to fix their screwups or how those screwups come back to screw them over.

That said, I think the books do a far better job at letting the reader understand the motivations of the characters whereas the show makes it harder to sympathize with some of the characters.

Seagloom wrote...
For my piece, I think Robb and Catelyn were blockheads. Always have. I also think, especially in Catelyn's case, that her actions were completely justified from her perspective. She was a desperate mother that lost two of her children, then discovers two more are dead while the last is on the front lines of a war. She was desperate, plain and simple. It doesn't make what she did right, but it does make sense when examined from her perspective. None of these characters possess the omniscient viewpoint we do as readers.

Exactly- its easy to point fingers and exclaim how stupid some characters are but thats only because the reader can see the big picture. Somebody like Cat can't and makes a decision based on what info is available to them.  Even somebody like Robb- he makes a stupid decision- but from his POV , its totally understandable as to why he made it. Dumb decision, but its understandable.

Uinen03 wrote...

Almost have book three finished in the  series... I wonder how they will do Bran's story in season three of the
HBO series. :/ They haven't mentioned him being a skinchanger once, and they excluded the reeds. This has probably been mentioned previously.  There's just a lot of pages to read. I was really sad to see all of that left out... and I'm curious to see how they work around
it.

They're going to cast the Reeds for season 3. It is known.

HoonDing wrote... Robb should've married Fugly Frey and  just kept Whatshername as mistress/concubine. She came from a nobody  noble family anyway. Like any self-respecting noble would do.

The irony is that the Frey girl Robb could end up with is actually fairly pretty, at least according to the books.

Addai67 wrote...
I never said it wasn't.  I said the way it's presented in the books it is more understandable.  He is in the Westerlands, not the Riverlands, and is wounded by an arrow, finds out about Bran and Rickon- Jeyne  Westerling nurses him- and there is also speculation that her family  uses a love charm on him.   What I'm saying is that GRRM set it up  better than the TV show did.  Much better.  In the TV show you have a  guy following his dick.  In the books it is more complicated.

Yup, in the books its far more understandable yet still stupid. But I think Robb realizes after the fact that he screwed up but is going to deal with it. Whereas in the show, they make him into an obstinate idiot defying his mother's advice out of love. The book makes it far more understandable- he's only a teenager; gets wounded, is all alone without the advice of his mother; learns of Bran and Rickon's "death"; falls for the pretty noble lady taking care of him; ends up bedding her; out of a sense of honor, he marries her. After the fact when he gets back to Cat, he realizes he sort of screwed up. Doesn't make it better but makes it more understandable.

Modifié par Brockololly, 15 juin 2012 - 04:28 .

[UpDownLeftRight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
PS: China's Three Kigndoms 2010 pwns GoT as a show.
I got so addicted to it that I haven't even watched season 2 finale and I am not that interested to.

Have you read the novel? It's worth a read.

I started watching the show today. It's pretty mediocre but the story is handled well enough.

[Costin_Razvan]

Exactly- its easy to point fingers and exclaim how stupid some characters are but thats only because the reader can see the big picture.

I disagree. I don't need to see the big picture to realize freeing the Kingslayer, kidnapping Tyrion, marrying Jeyne etc. are dumb actions based on what Catelyn and Robb know.  Catelyn knows Jaime is a dangerous soldier and commander, Catelyn knows Tywin is very dangerous and Robb knows exactly what brought him the Frey troops. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 juin 2012 - 09:53 .

[LPPrince]

I decided to go back and watch some clips of GoT on youtube and man, I forgot how many gems there are.

For example, Tywin skinning the stag and trying to motivate Jaime

[KnightofPhoenix]

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
PS: China's Three Kigndoms 2010 pwns GoT as a show.
I got so addicted to it that I haven't even watched season 2 finale and I am not that interested to.

Have you read the novel? It's worth a read.

I started watching the show today. It's pretty mediocre but the story is handled well enough.

I read it.

How is it mediocre? For sure they can't follow the book precisely, not when the book itself is an extremily romanticized version of events to begin with that is best used as a source of inspiration and framework not a script. But as a show, based on a pretty complicated setting, it's good.