11084 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Stannis is the worst claimant of them all.

He inspires no loyalty or allegiance whatsoever, as the book point out, most of the bannerman who follow him actually follow his wife and not him, who herself is fanatically loyal to Melisandre.
He inexplicably takes up a religion that demands that the traditional faiths are squashed, instantly making an already uncharismatic bloke even more susceptible to being hated and rejected by the common people.
And all it took is for someone to dress up in Renly's armor for a sizeable part of his army to defect.

Heck, he even makes Davos Hand of the King, which is possibly the dumbest decision one can make. Davos is a loyal and good admiral, but Hand of the King? What does he know of court intrigue and administration? The guy is illiterate you ******! 
It would make sense as a decison if Stannis deliberately chose someone who can't challenge him, but seeing how Stannis is also a ****** in court politics, he'd need a much better Hand than this. 

Stannis is a good general, in fact probably one of the best. But he's a ****** poor politician and leader.

Robb may not be that great, but at least he only wants the North and the Riverlands and not 7 kingdoms. And unlike Stannis, Robb can actually inspire some loyalty.

The only thing on Stannis' side is right, but based on an accusation that is yet to be substantiated to Westeros. Renly was 10 times the leader he was.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 avril 2013 - 06:09 .

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Stannis is the worst claimant of them all.

He inspires no loyalty or allegiance whatsoever, as the book point out, most of the bannerman who follow him actually follow his wife and not him, who herself is fanatically loyal to Melisandre.
He inexplicably takes up a religion that demands that the traditional faiths are squashed, instantly making an already uncharismatic bloke even more susceptible to being hated and rejected by the common people.
And all it took is for someone to dress up in Renly's armor for a sizeable part of his army to defect.

Heck, he even makes Davos Hand of the King, which is possibly the dumbest decision one can make. Davos is a loyal and good admiral, but Hand of the King? What does he know of court intrigue and administration? The guy is illiterate you ******! 
It would make sense as a decison if Stannis deliberately chose someone who can't challenge him, but seeing how Stannis is also a ****** in court politics, he'd need a much better Hand than this. 

Stannis is a good general, in fact probably one of the best. But he's a ****** poor politician and leader.

Robb may not be that great, but at least he only wants the North and the Riverlands and not 7 kingdoms. And unlike Stannis, Robb can actually inspire some loyalty.

The only thing on Stannis' side is right, but based on an accusation that is yet to be substantiated to Westeros. Renly was 10 times the leader he was.

I've not seen this episode yet, so I daren't delve into this thread, for it's dark and full of spoilers.

3 problems I see with your points. 

1) When did the love of the common people ever worry Stannis? He may have chaifed at it in the books, the Robert could command such loyalty in defeated foes and his bannermen, but he certainly doesn't go out of his way to address it.

2) Being charged in the flank by the Tyrell and Lannister Vanguard of mounted Cavalry, with a siege in front and the Blackwater on one flack tends to cause armies to break. I hardly think it was Renly's ghost, more the fact being taken by surprise be several thousand heavily armoured horse tends to shatter moral.

3) He makes Davos Hand, why? He favours honest words above courtly intreague. Davos has been straight with him. Stannis detests the likes of Varys, because he sees them as craven creatures, Varys himself has said. There is nothing so terrifying as a truly just man. That is Stannis. Why would he ever have men of politics in  the Court about him, he's more likely to remove their heads than pardon them. When his own banner men bend the knee to Joffrey in the books, his advisor, a Florrent I believe tells him to assault their holdings. Davos argues against it, and Stannis conceeds, that whole conversation when Davos reaches Dragonstone, in the books, shows Stannis for the man he is and why Davos is the logical choice for him as hand.

You point out that he is a poor political leader, ipso facto he should appoint someone who is versed in courtly politics. Failing to recognise that it would be anathema to Stannis' character as an implacable, ruthless battlehardened man to consider the possibility of negotiation, as happened in the books on Dragonstone and engage in courtly intreague in the first place. It's just not who Stannis is. 

[Addai]

Have you finished A Dance with Dragons yet KoP? Stannis is looking better and better to me. He is establishing his claim in his own way, using his own strengths, and they are formidable ones considering where the kingdom is and what threatens it. I won't say more because of spoilers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

billy the squid wrote...
1) When did the love of the common people ever worry Stannis? He may have chaifed at it in the books, the Robert could command such loyalty in defeated foes and his bannermen, but he certainly doesn't go out of his way to address it.

That's because he's a poor leader and king. If he wants to forcebly change people's religion, he better know how to earn their loyalty. 

2) Being charged in the flank by the Tyrell and Lannister Vanguard of mounted Cavalry, with a siege in front and the Blackwater on one flack tends to cause armies to break. I hardly think it was Renly's ghost, more the fact being taken by surprise be several thousand heavily armoured horse tends to shatter moral.

Except some didn't break, but defected and joined the other side, because they saw Renly's ghost. 
It's the bannermen who joined Stannis only because Renly was killed. 

3) He makes Davos Hand, why? He favours honest words above courtly intreague.

Poor politician, exactly my point.

You point out that he is a poor political leader, ipso facto he should appoint someone who is versed in courtly politics. Failing to recognise that it would be anathema to Stannis' character as an implacable, ruthless battlehardened man to consider the possibility of negotiation, as happened in the books on Dragonstone and engage in courtly intreague in the first place. It's just not who Stannis is. 

Exactly, Stannis is not a politician and leader, and thus the worst claimant of the lot.

I am not saying he is a bad character or a bad person. Or that he is being inconsistent, he's not. I am saying he's a poor leader and politician. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 avril 2013 - 06:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Have you finished A Dance with Dragons yet KoP? Stannis is looking better and better to me. He is establishing his claim in his own way, using his own strengths, and they are formidable ones considering where the kingdom is and what threatens it. I won't say more because of spoilers.

No I haven't started, wating for the paperback edition. 

I do know what he is doing though, and that's the only good decision he's done so far that I know of. Still would not make him suitable to be king in my eyes. He's a great general and that's about it. 

[Addai]

KOM_95 wrote...
Agreed, he owes his allegiance to Robert and Ned(now either Stannis or Robb), most Lords would have killed him after the Battle of the Trident. But they let him live and keep his position. I don't see why anyone is loyal to Dany because she is a Targaryen. What the Mad King did to Rickard and Brandon was disgusting. I'd be loyal to Dany as she could be a good ruler not because she is a Targaryen.

Why?  He was Kingsguard, they owe allegiance to the king.  Joffrey- Robert's appointed heir, as far as he knows- has proven himself unworthy.

Nobody liked Aerys, but the Targaryens had a long dynasty and everyone did love Rhaegar.  Granted in the books he has a longer time to observe Dany before declaring himself, so it makes more sense, but I guess you could say that he sees Jorah Mormont at her side and that tells him enough.  And, she has dragons.  That is the kind of power that can sweep away all the other claimants and restore peace and order in the Seven Kingdoms.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 avril 2013 - 06:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Nobody liked Aerys, but the Targaryens had a long dynasty and everyone did love Rhaegar.  Granted in the books he has a longer time to observe Dany before declaring himself, so it makes more sense, but I guess you could say that he sees Jorah Mormont at her side and that tells him enough.  And, she has dragons.  That is the kind of power that can sweep away all the other claimants and restore peace and order in the Seven Kingdoms.

Well if anything, Jorah being with her would make him more skeptical, one would think.

But in any case, it's not a huge problem for me. It makes more sense in the books, not so much in the show, but eh I can deal with it. 

[Straw Nihilist]

Anyone else going to like Ramsay Snow because of Iwan Rheon?

[legion999]

Ser Bones wrote...

Anyone else going to like Ramsay Snow because of Iwan Rheon?

I might start watching Game of Thrones just to see that.

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
1) When did the love of the common people ever worry Stannis? He may have chaifed at it in the books, the Robert could command such loyalty in defeated foes and his bannermen, but he certainly doesn't go out of his way to address it.

That's because he's a poor leader and king. If he wants to forcebly change people's religion, he better know how to earn their loyalty. 

2) Being charged in the flank by the Tyrell and Lannister Vanguard of mounted Cavalry, with a siege in front and the Blackwater on one flack tends to cause armies to break. I hardly think it was Renly's ghost, more the fact being taken by surprise be several thousand heavily armoured horse tends to shatter moral.

Except some didn't break, but defected and joined the other side, because they saw Renly's ghost. 
It's the bannermen who joined Stannis only because Renly was killed. 

3) He makes Davos Hand, why? He favours honest words above courtly intreague.

Poor politician, exactly my point.

You point out that he is a poor political leader, ipso facto he should appoint someone who is versed in courtly politics. Failing to recognise that it would be anathema to Stannis' character as an implacable, ruthless battlehardened man to consider the possibility of negotiation, as happened in the books on Dragonstone and engage in courtly intreague in the first place. It's just not who Stannis is. 

Exactly, Stannis is not a politician and leader, and thus the worst claimant of the lot.

I am not saying he is a bad character or a bad person. Or that he is being inconsistent, he's not. I am saying he's a poor leader and politician. 

Poor leader and King? Hmmm I don't think so. Poor politician certainly, but then again so was Robert Baratheon, while Stannis lacks the man's charisma and gregarious nature, he's certainly more concerned with duty, laws and justice than any other man, to a fault. He doesn't approach the levels of Tywin lannister in terms of governance and leadership, but, people of any social status wouldn't criticise stannis for being unjust, which is important for a leader, to be seen to be just and do his duty. I think it becomes a problem when it comes to issues of rebellion or civil disobedience, because it never occurs to Stannis to be merciful, because he wouldn't countanence the same.

Has it been stated that he wants to change people's religion? Davos never changes his, and is made king's hand. His circle of advisors change their religion as a way to advance themselves because of the Stannis' wife is a follower of the Lord of Light.

There's several of the Bannermen that were captured and bent the knee to Joffrey, I don't think they did that because of Renly's Ghost, although it's certainly something that would be  perpetuated among the ignorant masses, but Lords bending the knee, becuae of Renly's ghost? I think they did that because of Tywin Lannister's strategy of divide and conquer. 

I think he's probably a better claimant that Robb Stark, the Greyjoy's and Joffrey. But, considering the power behind the throne, for now is Tywin Lannister, he's certainly not going to outmatch the man who ruled the 7 kingdoms for over 20 years.

[TheBlackBaron]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Stannis doesn't reeeaaaally have standing. He may be "of the blood royal," whatever that means with the Targaryens out of the picture, but you need men to follow you if you plan to press a claim for the throne, and he is just not popular enough. Actually, is makes the most sense to let Cersei keep the throne and let the House of Lannister choose her a husband, since that requires the least bloodshed.

Robb's claim isn't stellar, but at least the Starks were Kings in the North before their ancestor swore fealty to the throne at King's Landing.

Stannis technically has Targ blood through at least his paternal grandmother, and possible farther back than that if the in-universe rumor that Orys Baratheon (the founder of the house) was Aegon I's half-brother are true. 

Nerevar-as wrote...

And did someone define Roose Bolton as a good man? It was clearly early on the books he was the North´s Token Evil Teammate.

We're cracking jokes about Roose. I actually think he's a great character, and his actor reminds of me of Vlad Putin, but certainly he's not a good person.

That said, Roose is just a sociopath who hides it well, while Ramsay is, well ... yeah. 

[Costin_Razvan]

Thus far I've found Putin Bolton a lot better then his book counterpart.

[LTD]

Much liked the season opener.
...Minus beyond-the-wall stuff. I have great difficulties in getting over the complete lack of forests or even trees. Also I've come to realize I don't like Jon Snow's actor or his douchebag 'stache. (no offense, BlackBaron;p )  Mance seemed pretty great, I'm glad they didn't take lazy way out and roll with some dashin 30  year old  one liner machine when writing him.  Dragon CGI was really finely done. CGI team has nice low-fantasy approach to dragons, if that makes any sense. They actually move and  behave like animals, rather than some completely otherworldy and incomrehensible  OMG IM DRAGON DOING DRAGON STUFF - creatures.  They don't feel any more otherworldy or supernatural  than stuff in Jurassic Park.

Actors remain awesome.
Littlefinger remains annoyingly dumb.
Margaret was awesome.


I wonder if series keeps remaining very loyal to books after the next two seasons. Even though I quite dislike many of the chnages made I'd like to think I do so because many of them are stupid, not because I'd expect some 1:1 version of books. It'd do the series good to get little more brave in this regard imho.

Modifié par LTD, 01 avril 2013 - 07:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

billy the squid wrote...
Poor leader and King? Hmmm I don't think so. Poor politician certainly, but then again so was Robert Baratheon, while Stannis lacks the man's charisma and gregarious nature, he's certainly more concerned with duty, laws and justice than any other man, to a fault. 

Robert was a horrible king, no one is going to deny that. 
And that does not make a good king. They are important attributes, but not nearly enough. 
Otherwise Eddard Stark would have been the best Hand, but he was awful.

A poor politician is by definition a poor king (though a great politician is not necessarily a good king, like Baelish), especially in such a context as Westeros. A poor king could certainly survive though, if he had a brilliant hand, like Baelor or Tywin, but instead he picks Davos.  

Has it been stated that he wants to change people's religion? Davos never changes his, and is made king's hand. His circle of advisors change their religion as a way to advance themselves because of the Stannis' wife is a follower of the Lord of Light.

He burned the 7 in dragonstone and Melisandre, the real power behind him, wants to spread her faith. 
And even if he didn't want to, that's not how the people of Westeros are going to see it after his act of blasphemy in dragonstone. 

There's several of the Bannermen that were captured and bent the knee to Joffrey, I don't think they did that because of Renly's Ghost, although it's certainly something that would be  perpetuated among the ignorant masses, but Lords bending the knee, becuae of Renly's ghost? I think they did that because of Tywin Lannister's strategy of divide and conquer. 

Because during the battle they didn't think it was a ghost, but Renly himself, hence they defected *during* the battle. 

I think he's probably a better claimant that Robb Stark, the Greyjoy's and Joffrey. But, considering the power behind the throne, for now is Tywin Lannister, he's certainly not going to outmatch the man who ruled the 7 kingdoms for over 20 years.

Robb Stark can at least inspire some loyalty, though like an idiot compromises it later on. Stannis can't even do that. 

Balon Greyjoy doesn't want the 7 kingdoms, for ruling the Iron Islands and maybe the North, he could do fine, though he is not a good king either. All 3 Robb, Balon and Stannis are very bad candidates. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 avril 2013 - 07:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Thus far I've found Putin Bolton a lot better then his book counterpart.

Less obvious.

Book Roose screamed SPOILERS a mile away. 

[LPPrince]

Thats cause Book Roose held a neon sign reading you know what

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well if anything, Jorah being with her would make him more skeptical, one would think.

But in any case, it's not a huge problem for me. It makes more sense in the books, not so much in the show, but eh I can deal with it. 

I can't recall one way or another from the books, but I think probably Selmy would recognize Mormont as a warrior and honorable man who made a mistake.  They don't know about his double dealing with Robert over Daenerys.

Selmy is in the Ned vein.  Not conniving, honorable to a fault, nobility in the true sense, and thus chewed up and spit out by Westeros.  Ser Duncan from the Dunk and Egg stories is another of these.

@KoP What you're saying about Melisandre's religious "reforms" is certainly borne out later on.  Extremism breeds extremism.

Anyway... I liked the 1st episode, but I'm far more absorbed in Vikings atm.  GoT has lost its shine for me.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 avril 2013 - 07:32 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Wait until the show gets to the Dance with Dragons chapters.

Stannis -is- a poor politician, and may never actually sit on the Iron Throne, but for the nonce he's exactly the king that Westeros needs right now, with Dany's dragons still not full grown and her, quite frankly, almost making as a big a mess of Meereen as Cersei does of King's Landing.

[TheBlackBaron]

Addai67 wrote...

I can't recall one way or another from the books, but I think probably Selmy would recognize Mormont as a warrior and honorable man who made a mistake.  They don't know about his double dealing with Robert over Daenerys.

Selmy is in the Ned vein.  Not conniving, honorable to a fault, nobility in the true sense, and thus chewed up and spit out by Westeros.  Ser Duncan from the Dunk and Egg stories is another of these.

Barristan is part of the Small Council in the books, isn't he? And I'm fairly sure that Robert reveals to them at once point that Mormont is the mole feeding them information about Dany's whereabouts and actions. 

In all honesty, it doesn't make much sense that he reveals himself right away, but there's really no way they could have concealed it and Selmy's return was delayed from the end of ACoK as it is. Just something that show sort of has to deal with. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

So, king's landing almost fell, the man who helped defend it has been pretty much shooed back to the back curtain of the royalty, Greyjoy's and the iron islands to the west are going after the north, Batheraon's and a psychotic pyro/umbra mancer to the...south? South-east?, The politics of the land are still in an ever downward spiral, almost everyone is burning through their provisions and arimes before winter's snow has even begun to fall, dragons in the east with a targaryen hellbent on taking back the throne, magic coming back into the world en mass, and as if that weren't all enough, the white walkers are back, with an army, and nobody but the night's watch is taking the threat seriously, who are mostly composed of convicts, cowards, dishonored nobles, misguided fools, and samwell.

I haven't read the books yet, and only saw all of season 1, 2, and the first ep of 3, over this last week, but I can only imagine that the cowpie hasn't even begun to hit the princes face yet, and that something even worse is coming.

I can't wait to see if all of this ends up clustering together at once and everyone ends up taking eachother out.

[TheJediSaint]

Don't worry,, Brotarian, it gets worse.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Wait until the show gets to the Dance with Dragons chapters.

Stannis -is- a poor politician, and may never actually sit on the Iron Throne, but for the nonce he's exactly the king that Westeros needs right now, with Dany's dragons still not full grown and her, quite frankly, almost making as a big a mess of Meereen as Cersei does of King's Landing.

Meh, that's why I hate the white walker and all this ancient evil crap.

I'll see. Suffice to say that in a non-supernatural  interventon context, Stannis would make a horrible king. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

So. Who do you think has the best house crest of the show?

I'm going with house targaryen, because dragons.

[KOM_95]

^ Stark then Lannister. Who do you think will sit on the Iron Throne from now until the end? I think Dany and Jon Snow.

[Straw Nihilist]

Greyjoys or the lannisters, both sigils are awesome