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[LPPrince]

No way in hell is Littlefinger dumb. He can be outsmarted, sure. But he is definitely not dumb. He's very much a manipulator, and things fall into place over time.

Littlefinger plays the long game.

[TheJediSaint]

LPPrince wrote...

No way in hell is Littlefinger dumb. He can be outsmarted, sure. But he is definitely not dumb. He's very much a manipulator, and things fall into place over time.

Littlefinger plays the long game.

So does the Spider, and he's been playing the game longer.  He also doesn't have a weakness for girls with Auburn hair.

[MisterJB]

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS.

While that is true, it seems to me that Littlefinger has had to make little to no modifications to his plans. Seed discord between Starks and Lannisters, Win the Tyrells over and earn Harrenhall thus becoming lord of one of the Seven Kingdoms. Have Lorenna kill Joffrey. Smuggle Sansa out of the city. Marry Lysa Arryn which makes him lord of two of the Seven Kingdoms. Get rid of Lysa (probrably faster than he had intended, the Vale wasn't secure in his hands yet), get rid of Robert, marry Sansa to Harry the heir and through her rule three of the Seven Kingdoms.

Meanwhile, Varys just stumbles from plan to plan. First, he failed to delay the War of the Five Kings; Viserys is killed and Daenerys loses her Khalazar. She gives birh to three dragons by pure chance but when Illyrio sends for her, she turns the ships around to the Slaver's Bay and decides to stay there while making enemy after enemy. Meanwhile, not only did Tyrion never make it to Meeren, he actually convinced Aegon Blackfyre to sail for Westeros before he is ready.

Between the two, I think Petyr Baelish is the more sucessful one. Varys has good plans, these crazy Targaryens just keep ruining them.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 avril 2013 - 05:20 .

[Degs29]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Heck, he even makes Davos Hand of the King, which is possibly the dumbest decision one can make. Davos is a loyal and good admiral, but Hand of the King? What does he know of court intrigue and administration? The guy is illiterate you ******! 
 

Littlefinger understands court intrigue and administration.  Would he be a good Hand?  Frankly, Tyrion is the best Hand so far in the show.  He understand the way the game is played, but at the same time he empathizes with the masses and works to help them.  Tywin, at least in the books, would make a decent Hand as well.  Maybe a little ironhanded. 

Was anyone else disappointed the battle at the Fist of the First Men was relegated to sound effects and a black screen?  And poor Sam didn't even get the ravens off.  Follow that up with the disappointment of Tyrion's scar being pretty much a bad scratch, rather than an appearance altering gash and finally the all-too-expected and immediate reveal of Selmy.  I liked the episode overall, but of all the episodes so far it had the most disappointments.  The only other time I've really been disappointed was when Jaime killed his cousin when he was imprisoned.  Jaime's actually one of my favourite characters in the books and this seems entirely out of character.  At least when he pushed Bran out the window, he was doing it for Cersei.  This killing of his cousion was entirely for his own benefit.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Ser Bones wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I'm not sure if this was posted yet, but I think it was pretty funny.

Again, sorry if repost.

*snip*

Oh Jorah, the walking friendzone. Btw, am I the only one that actually likes Cercei? 

Cercei will be likeable when Jorah get's laid, which should be just half-past never.



A more realistic goal, is that she will be likeable when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves.

[Silcron]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Ser Bones wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I'm not sure if this was posted yet, but I think it was pretty funny.

Again, sorry if repost.

*snip*

Oh Jorah, the walking friendzone. Btw, am I the only one that actually likes Cercei? 

Cercei will be likeable when Jorah get's laid, which should be just half-past never.



A more realistic goal, is that she will be likeable when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves.

I don't watch the series a lot but I've read the five books. Jorah has a wife, and several children, and he is faithful to her. Guess Cersei is likable now.

If you mean getting laid in the series they probably want to show the hookers rather than Jorah's wife.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I meant more with Daenerys than with anyone else, since he seems to have the most feelings for her.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 02 avril 2013 - 09:50 .

[Degs29]

Silcron wrote...
I don't watch the series a lot but I've read the five books. Jorah has a wife, and several children, and he is faithful to her. Guess Cersei is likable now.

If you mean getting laid in the series they probably want to show the hookers rather than Jorah's wife.

You mean the wife that left him for a rich man after he was exiled for trying to sell people into slavery to pay for her expensive tastes?  I don't think he cares that much for her any more!  Also, to the best of my knowledge (and after doing some research to confirm) he doesn't have any children.  Plus, the books make it quite obvious he is interested in Daenarys. 

Modifié par Degs29, 03 avril 2013 - 12:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Degs29 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Heck, he even makes Davos Hand of the King, which is possibly the dumbest decision one can make. Davos is a loyal and good admiral, but Hand of the King? What does he know of court intrigue and administration? The guy is illiterate you ******! 
 

Littlefinger understands court intrigue and administration.  Would he be a good Hand?  Frankly, Tyrion is the best Hand so far in the show.  He understand the way the game is played, but at the same time he empathizes with the masses and works to help them.  Tywin, at least in the books, would make a decent Hand as well.  Maybe a little ironhanded. 

Decent? Tywin was the best Hand since Baelor. 
Tywin is the perfect Hand, and in fact was the man who would have been the best king of the lot. 

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Degs29 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Heck, he even makes Davos Hand of the King, which is possibly the dumbest decision one can make. Davos is a loyal and good admiral, but Hand of the King? What does he know of court intrigue and administration? The guy is illiterate you ******! 
 

Littlefinger understands court intrigue and administration.  Would he be a good Hand?  Frankly, Tyrion is the best Hand so far in the show.  He understand the way the game is played, but at the same time he empathizes with the masses and works to help them.  Tywin, at least in the books, would make a decent Hand as well.  Maybe a little ironhanded. 

Decent? Tywin was the best Hand since Baelor. 
Tywin is the perfect Hand, and in fact was the man who would have been the best king of the lot. 

Tywin is inept at one of the most fundamental levels of leadership: recognizing and giving people  the respect they need to remain invested behind you. This isn't simply a case of being a little brisque or stepping on sensitive feelings: Tywin turned an exceptionally talented, intelligent, and capable ally who not only could do well but wanted to be accepted... and effectively drove and allowed him to be driven against him.

Tywin could lead his estate, but he couldn't lead his own household. Crushing enemies from a position or safety is fine and all, but if you drive your eager-to-be-accepted child to shoot you on the lou, you've done something wrong.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 avril 2013 - 12:54 .

[TheJediSaint]

simfamSP wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Jonathan28 wrote...

LTD wrote...
Littlefinger remains annoyingly dumb.

Littlefinger is many things, but dumb is not one of them. The dude is the best player of the Game of Thrones. 

The spider may have something to say about that.

Don't be hard on the Littlefinger, a singer murdered his wife you know

I hear they had a......falling out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Tywin is inept at one of the most fundamental levels of leadership: recognizing and giving people  the respect they need to remain invested behind you. This isn't simply a case of being a little brisque or stepping on sensitive feelings: Tywin turned an exceptionally talented, intelligent, and capable ally who not only could do well but wanted to be accepted... and effectively drove and allowed him to be driven against him.

Tywin could lead his estate, but he couldn't lead his own household. Crushing enemies from a position or safety is fine and all, but if you drive your eager-to-be-accepted child to shoot you on the lou, you've done something wrong.

He is a bad father and yes, his failure with Tyrion is a great one.

But it is only with regards to Tyrion and to an extent Jaime (though neither are completely innocent either, they bear responsability for their actions). We have no other evidence of Tywin driving potential assets away. If anything, the man seems a natural at forging alliances and giving them incentives to give their allegiance. A lot of people are loyal to him for different reasons. Indeed, that's what he taught Joffrey, but the lesson fell on deaf ears. 

Tywin's failure with regards to Tyrion was due to his too aggressive emotions towards him for a whole mess of personal reasons, which I agree is his fatal flaw (which coupled with Tyrion being also very flawed, results in a disaster).

But in general, Tywin was the best man for the job given all other contenders.  Certainly far beyond being just "decent" given his record, both past and present. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2013 - 01:42 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

I would argue that tywin screwed up his daughter pretty badly as well. It makes me wonder if he was captured and killed the same way stark was, if the lannister's would go to nearly as much to rescue and avenge him as the starks are.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I do not subscribe to the idea that Tywin carries all the blame for how his children turned out.

Tywin was raised by a weakling man, and Tywin alone understood what he needed to be. Neither Jaime, or Cersei, or Tyrion understood what they needed to be.

Yea Tywin failed to guide them properly, seeing how he was never guided into it himself, but rather had reality slap him across the face when he was at least as young as 8. But his children also carry part of the blame for failing to realize what he realized even as a boy. It is no doubt in large part because he was a domineering control freak who barely showed affection if any, whose iron grip backfired. But it's also due, imo, to Jaime and Cersei being spoiled, never having to experience what Tywin experienced, and Tyrion being, understandly, a man full of envy and self-inferiority. 

The Lannisters seem to be an almost exact incarnation of the scenario of a man building, his children stagnating, and then his grandchildren plummeting.

EDIT and yes all 3 of his children would have done what the Starks did if Tywin was captured or harmed, if not more. If not out of love, then out of family pride and loyalty. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2013 - 02:02 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

I blame more the entire family, than tywin himself. This type of thing takes multiple generations of people screwing up their children and them turning out poorly to bring about this messed up dynamic.

Tywin was too harsh on his children because of how he was raised, Cersei too lenient because of how she was raised, and thus Joffery becomes a spoiled brat of a king, and a sadist to boot.

In short, I agree with you KOP, and that is a very good analysis.

[Straw Nihilist]

God would Ramsay get some screen time already, I've been waiting to upload an avi of him ever since I heard Iwan Rheon was playing him.

[Shepenwepet]

If Game of Thrones Season 3: Episode 1 took place on Facebook

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I blame more the entire family, than tywin himself. .

Exactly. 

I've always regarded the Lannisters and Starks both being very flawed families, but from the opposite ends of the spectrum.

The Lannister household in general lacked warmth, affection, and was ruled by an ineffectual iron grip. But the Lannister kids, all 3 of them, display way above average intelligence, a stronger grasp of reality, and are quite resourceful.

The Stark household is in general warm, affectionate, and accepting (barring to an extent Jon Snow). But the Stark children turned out completely unprepared to deal with the real world (as was Ned), being too naive and idealist.

Granted the Stark kids generally being much younger also played a part, but seeing how Ned also suffered from these attributes, it's likely that all of them would have turned out the same under normal circumstances.  

EDIT: come to think of it, all major households are very dysfunctional, the only possible exception being the Tyrells. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2013 - 02:19 .

[TheJediSaint]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Granted the Stark kids generally being much younger also played a part, but seeing how Ned also suffered from these attributes, it's likely that all of them would have turned out the same under normal circumstances.  

The problem with the Starks is that they are decent, honorable people in a world that is neither decent nor honorable.

Edit: Even in the books, the Tyrells are unusually sane.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 03 avril 2013 - 02:20 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Silcron wrote...

I don't watch the series a lot but I've read the five books. Jorah has a wife, and several children, and he is faithful to her. Guess Cersei is likable now.

If you mean getting laid in the series they probably want to show the hookers rather than Jorah's wife.

Jorah's wife left him and is now a hooker in Lys. I don't think he's seen much action on that front for a while. 

[Megaton_Hope]

Why would anybody like Cersei Lannister? She murdered her children because they didn't belong to her brother, and she's more personally responsible for all the horrible violence in Westeros than any other single person.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So the tyrell's are the sane ones in the whole story?

They're all either going to die, or their going to be revealed to be the worst of the bunch.

Also, found out what happened to theon from the wiki. My entire outlook on him has changed from hating him to just pure pity and hoping he get's out of this somehow.

[Straw Nihilist]

Shepenwepet wrote...

If Game of Thrones Season 3: Episode 1 took place on Facebook

that was... Awesome