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[Cainhurst Crow]

Ser Bones wrote...

Shepenwepet wrote...

If Game of Thrones Season 3: Episode 1 took place on Facebook

that was... Awesome

Indeed it was.

[TheBlackBaron]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So the tyrell's are the sane ones in the whole story?

The Tyrell's are best described as being opportunists. They've been fortunate enough to be mostly removed from the war (the only combat in the Reach has been the Ironborn invasion of the Shield Islands) and possess the largest army and fleet. They're arguably the most powerful House remaining since the only thing propping up the Lannisters in King's Landing is Tyrell food, money, and soldiers. 

I'm not sure if I'd call them the "sane" ones - they're really no more or less so than the Martels, Tullys, or Starks - so much as having the right mix of luck, PR, and realpolitik. 

[MisterJB]

Megaton_Hope wrote...
She murdered her children because they didn't belong to her brother,

I'm really hesitant to point out that all she did was have an abortion (this could get ugly) and through a method so widely used that even the Wildlings know about it.

and she's more personally responsible for all the horrible violence in Westeros than any other single person.

Personally, I'd blame Catelyn who thought capturing a member of the most powerful family in the Kingdoms while her husband and daugthers were surrounded by Lannisters was a good idea.
The only truly important person who cares about Joffrey's lineage is Stannins, anyway.

[Megaton_Hope]

MisterJB wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...
She murdered her children because they didn't belong to her brother,

I'm really hesitant to point out that all she did was have an abortion (this could get ugly) and through a method so widely used that even the Wildlings know about it.

Not just the one abortion, no. She was married to Robert for about 15 years. She definitely aborted the one child she mentioned with moon tea, and presumably many others during the ten to twelve years that she actually lay with Robert. Which isn't a big huge hairy deal, as you say; it's not like she strangled any in their cribs. Although I really wouldn't put it past her. It was, of course, her idea to kill Jon Arryn, itty-bitty Bran and Ned to protect her dark secret.

Of course, Jaime's men ambush Ned Stark when he's out verifying the identity of one of Robert's bastards (an infant at that time), because Cersei is also having all of them killed. And Gendry and Edric Storm are in danger of being killed for being Robert's bastards, which would endanger Joffrey or Tommen's claim to the throne.

Personally, I'd blame Catelyn who thought capturing a member of the most
powerful family in the Kingdoms while her husband and daugthers were
surrounded by Lannisters was a good idea.

Who had King Robert killed?

[Degs29]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Ser Bones wrote...

Shepenwepet wrote...

If Game of Thrones Season 3: Episode 1 took place on Facebook

that was... Awesome

Indeed it was.

Mance Rayder:  Good answer.  I would also have accepted 'Because bastards don't get to sit at the cool table.'

Awesome.

[Degs29]

Megaton_Hope wrote...
Not just the one abortion, no. She was married to Robert for about 15 years. She definitely aborted the one child she mentioned with moon tea, and presumably many others during the ten to twelve years that she actually lay with Robert. Which isn't a big huge hairy deal, as you say; it's not like she strangled any in their cribs. Although I really wouldn't put it past her. It was, of course, her idea to kill Jon Arryn, itty-bitty Bran and Ned to protect her dark secret.

Oh, you think so, do you?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Megaton_Hope wrote...
 It was, of course, her idea to kill Jon Arryn, itty-bitty Bran and Ned to protect her dark secret.

No, she did not at all want Bran dead, that was all Jaime. She was in fact quite furious at him.

And she opposed Ned Stark for only one reason: to protect her children. What do you think Robert would have done to them if he found out they are not his but a product of incest?

What Ned did was effectively give her two options:
a. either stay and you and your children would be killed (which Tywin would not take sitting down)
b. run away and live in perpetual exile with your children out of Westeros, while quite likely being hunted down

Of course Cersei was going to remove Ned from the picture although she did not want him killed. It was primarily to protect her children.

As for Jon Arryn. Well...let;s just say it's not what it seems. 
Although I would not doubt that she would have killed him, for the same reason: to protect her children. 

Of course, Jaime's men ambush Ned Stark when he's out verifying the identity of one of Robert's bastards (an infant at that time), because Cersei is also having all of them killed. 

No that is in fact ambiguous and there is no direct evidence that Cersei was the one who ordered these massacres. It is far more likely to be the work of Joffrey by myself. 

Who had King Robert killed?

Well considering how horrible a king, husband and father he was (he wins the award in all of them), the direct consequences of his idiocy on all fronts are quite disastrous and heavy in terms of body count. 


I love Cersei. She is very flawed and sadly her intellect is compromised by her rage (she is as Jaime described her, wildfire as opposed to Tywin's glacier). But I find her a tragic and sympathetic character who had been consistently abused and driven to rage by an unjust system that kept brushing her aside (incarnated primarily by a father she idolizes, and a husband she loaths). 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2013 - 04:49 .

[Megaton_Hope]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, she did not at all want Bran dead, that was all Jaime. She was in fact quite furious at him.

Where do you get that? In the moment, I see three things from Cersei.

The woman pushed the man away wildly, shouting and pointing.

He saw us, the woman said shrilly.

"What are you doing?" the woman demanded. (This is to Jaime, after he begins to pull Bran up after he falls the first time. Omitted on the show, where she only says "He saw us" twice.)

I do gather that the assassin who's sent later is in fact from Joff, but that's neither here nor there. Cersei seems to take no action regarding Bran, except to express outrage over his knowledge that she has sex with Jaime during that scene.

Okay, so maybe it was Littlefinger and crazylady Lysa who killed Jon Arryn, whatevs. This is still a secret she was busy killing people over.

What do you think Robert would have done to them if he found out they are not his but a product of incest?

Dunno. Maybe exile, maybe death. It's never actually proven they're the product of incest, though, just suspected and rumored. The thing that ultimately convinces Ned isn't quite a thorough-going study of Mendelian inheritance. (We don't know whether there are blond/blue-eyed genes in Robert's Baratheon genepool or not.) The strongest evidence in favor of that hypothesis is that Cersei apparently takes steps to prevent Robert from siring children with her, which if it includes regular consumption of abortifactants would make Robert's children very unlikely.

Probably he'd lean toward killing them, both from a male pride standpoint and to ensure the security of his throne for any heirs he might sire/name in the future.

Of course Cersei was going to remove Ned from the picture although she
did not want him killed. It was primarily to protect her children.

Oh, I think she'd have to have him killed sooner or later. What Joff did, as near as I can tell, is push up her timetable. Can't leave a factual bombshell like "The queen is cheating on the king with her brother" lying around (see: charges made against Anne Boleyn), and it'd be perfectly safe to have him murdered at Winterfell, given the multitude of methods available to somebody with her resources.

The motive for killing Robert, at least as presented in her conversation with Jaime, involves her belief that she would soon be "put aside."

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well considering how horrible a king, husband and father he was (he wins the award in all of them), the direct consequences of his idiocy on all fronts are quite disastrous and heavy in terms of body count.

I don't know that he's that bad of a king. He's not astounding, not even decent in his rule, but he was able to easily turn enemies into allies, which is a great trait in and of itself. Especially for rulers. I'd say he's less then decent, but not horrible. And that's ultimately from circumstance and how events played out, rather then anything about Robert's intelligence.

I mean, he didn't attend the meetings, sure. And that does strike a mark against his reign. And he did put the nation into severe debt because he wanted tourneys when he could get them, which is also a mark against his reign. Even so, I can understand why he did these things, if what I believe about his character is true.

He knew full well what the meetings entailed. Aside from humdrum day-to-day details, it was mostly a bunch of sycophants and flatterers telling him how his "decisions were golden" and supporting his moves, people who would just as soon stab the person they had lunch with earlier in the day right in the back, if it benefitted their own agenda. The former is irritating, the latter is something undesirable.

If you're going to rule, you'd want people who are actually going to help you rule by being stark with you, one would think. Certainly people you can rely on. But on the times where he did attend the meetings, he proved himself a decent enough ruler. The Targaryen issue in particular, noting that the Targaryens are indeed a threat to his rule, more so if they have a Dothraki army at their beck and call. 

Or at least, it would've been, had a certain someone not leaked such information to certain people, thus bringing the idea to kill the Targaryen children to a halt. Or so I suspect, given what I know of the man I'm referring to. Had that not happened, it would've been a wise move, but because of the leaked information it inadvertently set into motion Daenerys' resolve to retake Westeros.

I'd also note, and this is something that the Robert-Cersei scene explored but I'm unsure if the books touched upon it at all, that after Lyanna's death it's entirely possible that one thing furthered his disinterest in ruling, if not having caused it entirely. To Robert, Lyanna was perfect. And to lose her meant that he was broken inside, and seven kingdoms were a paltry reward for a rebellion fought primarily to free her from Rhaegar's grip.

One of my favorite scenes, for what it's worth. It shows Robert's brilliant knowledge of warfare, knowledge that without the peoples' love rule is worthless, shows Cersei and Robert making light of their failed marriage, foreshadows the War of the Five Kings, and so many other things. 

The other reason, of course, being retribution for the deaths of the Stark patriarch and elder brother.

Granted, some sources suggest that Rhaegar took Lyanna not out of kidnapping, but out of mutual love. And that this may have produced Jon Snow, whom Eddard promised to keep safe. But the evidence is fairly murky about the whole thing.

Anyway, Robert fought for Lyanna, and upon finding out she had died, there was no reason for him to really rule. I'm sure had Lyanna survived, had Lyanna married him, that he would have not only been faithful to her but may have been more inclined to attend meetings. Even if all he saw was her beauty, I'm sure her iron may have also been something he enjoyed.

I think he had the makings to be a decent enough king, but Lyanna's death took a heavy toll upon his soul, such that wine, women, and war were the only ways for him to feel alive again. 

In other words, he's dead inside.

A poor king, sure, for his actions. But it's not like he's a poor king simply because he's a poor king. There are legitimate reasons for it, and I think he could've been decent enough had events gone differently. But he was the one the banners rallied behind, so he could not just forsake the throne to his brother Stannis or even Renly upon Lyanna's death. Whether he wished to do such a thing or not, I dunno. 

Regarding his treatment of Cersei, it is abhorrent -- something he recognizes -- but I can understand why he kept drinking, knowing full well that he'd just do it again. I happen to think the drink made him do it as he believed, considering that when we drink our judgement falters and we do things we might not otherwise do when sober. Assuming, of course, my reasoning for it happens to be accurate to his character.

I think that after that first time he did it to Cersei and she brought it up with him, he drank because of the shame he felt. He may not have liked the Lannisters much, but he didn't bear them such ill will that he'd do anything to them.

Granted, it doesn't excuse his repeated abuse of her (even if it became less frequent, either because of him building up a tolerance to the drink or because of other reasons), but at least it's not like he did it deliberately in the sense of "Well, you're a **** so NYEH!". Deliberately in another form, perhaps, but of a different sort.

Indeed, he was ever the gentleman with her on the day of their wedding, even going so far as to whisper in her ear how the common folk adored her, something that brought Cersei joy in that wedding when all she could really think about was how she should've married Rhaegar.

I'd venture a guess some might consider his undying love of Lyanna a form of abuse as well, but the aforementioned Rhaegar moment -- that she perpetuated during their marriage by continuing to think of Rhaegar -- is more or less the same. She just never voiced it.

Though Cersei was abusive to people on her own part. She abused Tyrion when he was just a baby and she was eight or nine, give or take. I don't think anyone could excuse that by her life with Tywin Lannister. That was pure malice.

As for the consequences of his faults, well, for Joffrey I doubt that even had Robert been a loving father Joffrey would've been any better a king. The boy was borne of incest, which muddles the gene pool and doesn't leave one as being mentally capable. Tommen and Myrcella aren't pricks and ****es, thankfully, but that's an exception. 

Joffrey probably still would've been the cruel and idiotic brat that he was.

No that is in fact ambiguous and there is no direct evidence that Cersei was the one who ordered these massacres. It is far more likely to be the work of Joffrey by myself.

Are we talking the TV show or the books? If the books, I don't think Joffrey ordered that at all. Joffrey believes himself to be Robert's child, which would mean that there's no reason for him to really move to assassinate Robert's bastard, insofar as he believes about himself.

As a "Baratheon", he has the stronger claim to the throne then any bastard-born child. True, it's a lie, but he doesn't know that, and to kill them would kinda be an acknowledgement that he isn't Robert's heir. There's only one legitimate political reason I can think of why a boy who believes himself to be a Baratheon would kill them, and that's if he knew he was sowing discord amongst the people by his choices and didn't want the people rallying behind a bastard child as heir.

But then that'd make Joffrey aware of his ******-poor actions and continuing with them anyway instead of seeking support, which is somewhat contradictory to his character. He's oblivious to his choices being idiotic and thinks he's right and that he doesn't need support, so he can't be aware that he's making poor choices.

Sure, it could just be done out of malice and cruelty, but... you yourself say that Cersei will do anything to protect her children, more so after the prophecy. Well, Robert's bastards threaten her children's livelihood the longer they continue to exist.

If we're talking the TV show, then it does seem like Joffrey did it, simply because he is aware of the rumors and brings it up to Cersei (IIRC, such a scene did not occur in the books). 

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Dunno. Maybe exile, maybe death. It's never actually proven they're the product of incest, though, just suspected and rumored. The thing that ultimately convinces Ned isn't quite a thorough-going study of Mendelian inheritance. (We don't know whether there are blond/blue-eyed genes in Robert's Baratheon genepool or not.) The strongest evidence in favor of that hypothesis is that Cersei apparently takes steps to prevent Robert from siring children with her, which if it includes regular consumption of abortifactants would make Robert's children very unlikely.

Well, Cersei does think to herself that she actively prevented any of Robert's seeds from taking shape within her, not just from a moon tea act but from actually taking his sperm he had spent inside of her and swallowing it. If I remember the FFC chapter I read earlier correctly.

And having black hair, such as the Baratheons have, is a dominant trait. Hence the geneology book Ned was reading.

Of course Cersei was going to remove Ned from the picture although she
did not want him killed.

Ehh... I don't really buy into "not wanting him killed". I'll buy into "Not wanting him killed then and there", but Ned's the type of person who would feel honor bound to support the Baratheon claim to the throne through Stannis, even if he wasn't the Warden of the North anymore.

Stannis would eventually leak out the rumors of Cersei's incest-borne children, and even Renly was gearing up for war at this time because of that fact (indicating he had proof himself).

It would only be a matter of time before war hit the Seven Kingdoms. Robb would possibly be unsure of where he should stand and might go to his father for counsel. Ned would probably advise him on the matter and say he should declare for Stannis when the time was right, but also bring up Sansa's status in King's Landing as a hostage to the Lannisters.

I'm sure Ned's honor would have him still press the issue. Just more discreetly and from a world away, so that his daughter did not pay the price. It'd be funny, because Cersei would've probably made Ned into slightly more of a schemer, but with honor at its core.

It's interesting how Robert and Ned were the key points in the War of the Five Kings. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 avril 2013 - 07:55 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Incest doesn't screw you up quite that bad in one generation. In every case it's an issue because it pools recessive genes together, with fewer alternatives in every generation. Cersei and Jaime do practice exactly the worst type, being brother and sister (and possibly worse at that for being fraternal twins, depending whether the ovum divided or there was a second ovum). However, to experience the side effects people tend to associate with incest, like the Habsburgs or Targaryens, it'd have to continue generation after generation. Normally rare traits like hemophilia or congenital forms of madness become the only possibility, although normally some of these traits would be ameliorated or go unexpressed entirely thanks to more dominant genes being passed along as well.

[TheJediSaint]

The Lannisters could be victims of a phenomenon known as "remote inbreading". Basically, if you have enough cousin marriages over a few generations, it becomes functionally the same as brother-sister incest.

We know that Tywin Lannister married his first cousin, and it stands to reason that other generations of Lannisters engaged in such practices. So it's quite possible that Cercei and Jamie were simply accelerating a process that was already far along. It probably helps explain why Joffrey was such a little psycho. It may also be a reason for Tyrion's dwarfism.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 03 avril 2013 - 08:19 .

[Fiery Knight]

Could someone explain to me why Tywin is such an ignorant fool in this recent episode? Is he seriously not aware of everything Tyrion accomplished during his time as the Hand, everything between court matters and in the battle?

[TheJediSaint]

Hawke_12 wrote...

Could someone explain to me why Tywin is such an ignorant fool in this recent episode? Is he seriously not aware of everything Tyrion accomplished during his time as the Hand, everything between court matters and in the battle?

Tywin has a major blindspot when it comes to Tyrion.  No matter what Tyrion accomplishes, Tywin still blames him for the death of his wife.   And the fact that Tyrion is just as mentally able as Tywin only serves to make him hate his son more.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 03 avril 2013 - 08:45 .

[Fiery Knight]

That makes sense. Thank you for the answer.

[TheJediSaint]

Hawke_12 wrote...

That makes sense. Thank you for the answer.

No problem.

If Twyin Lannister has a fatal flaw, it's his loathing of the best of his children.

[TEWR]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Incest doesn't screw you up quite that bad in one generation. In every case it's an issue because it pools recessive genes together, with fewer alternatives in every generation. Cersei and Jaime do practice exactly the worst type, being brother and sister (and possibly worse at that for being fraternal twins, depending whether the ovum divided or there was a second ovum). However, to experience the side effects people tend to associate with incest, like the Habsburgs or Targaryens, it'd have to continue generation after generation. Normally rare traits like hemophilia or congenital forms of madness become the only possibility, although normally some of these traits would be ameliorated or go unexpressed entirely thanks to more dominant genes being passed along as well.

Fair enough. Still, Joffrey seemed like the type to skip all the required generations of incest to head to the finish line of madness, even with love from his father.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 avril 2013 - 08:57 .

[Megaton_Hope]

TheJediSaint wrote...

The Lannisters could be victims of a phenomenon known as "remote inbreading". Basically, if you have enough cousin marriages over a few generations, it becomes functionally the same as brother-sister incest.

We know that Tywin Lannister married his first cousin, and it stands to reason that other generations of Lannisters engaged in such practices. So it's quite possible that Cercei and Jamie were simply accelerating a process that was already far along. It probably helps explain why Joffrey was such a little psycho. It may also be a reason for Tyrion's dwarfism.

While this should be a problem in all the major Houses, especially more affluent and influential ones like the Lannisters that can more easily wrangle high-falutin' marriages, I'd lean toward other explanations for the likes of Joffrey. Lysa Tully, who should have roughly the same genetic mix as Catelyn Stark, comes up with a similarly horrible son by raising Robert indulgently and in isolation. Isolation is also part of the explanation for her malleability and extreme paranoia.

Tyrion's dwarfism would depend on just what the cause of Tyrion's dwarfism is. From what I can find online, Diastrophic Dysplasia would be one form of recessive dwarfism that could be inherited more easily in a heavily inbred royal family. It could also be a spontaneous mutation (transcription error, maybe), which wouldn't require either of his parents to have the gene. Giantism and dwarfism can also result from physical abnormalities in the pituitary gland.

Or, in Westeros, from non-human parentage; they have actual literal "giants," who are fairly clearly another race which interbreeds with humans, producing sports like Gregor Clegane. There may be other kinds, and incompatible genes could produce malformations like Tyrion's just as well as more formidable traits like Gregor's large, heavily muscled frame. (Which would be atypical for a giant as we know them.)

[Degs29]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Hawke_12 wrote...

That makes sense. Thank you for the answer.

No problem.

If Twyin Lannister has a fatal flaw, it's his loathing of the best of his children.

I'll add to that.  Tywin always loathed his father (Tytos) and believed he brought shame down on their house.  One thing that Tytos did was bring a mistress into his bed.  Over time, she became more and more powerful within the court, and Tywin couldn't abide that, either for the insult to his late mother or believing this mistress was upjumped.  When Tytos died, Tywin removed his mistress from court and humiliated her, if I remember correctly, by marching her out of town naked.  Ever since, he has had a deep abiding hatred of ****s being even remotely linked to the name of Lannister.  If you recall the story Tyrion tells Bronn and Shae in season 1 about his short-lived marriage, you once again see how Tywin reacts to family members associating with ****s.  He believes Tyrion's whoring brings shame to the house.

In the books, Tywin also references the fact that the wildfire that played such a critical role in Stannis' defeat was Cersei's idea, which is true, even if Tyrion did take over its operations later.  He only gives Tyrion credit for creating the massive chain that cut Stannis' fleet in two and increased the effectiveness of the wildfire attack.  Of course, in the show he never made that chain, so Tywin instead recognized his mounting the attack on the ram-bearers. 

Still, I think the biggest thing that Tywin dislikes about his son is that he's a dwarf.

EDIT: I didn't realize hoars would be censored, but not whoring I see lol.

Modifié par Degs29, 03 avril 2013 - 06:59 .

[Addai]

Joanna Lannister, Tywin's wife, was a favorite of Aerys the Mad King who had many, many bastards. Tywin fears, with justification, that not all of his children are his. But let's play a guessing game. Which is it, the dwarf who loves dragons or the brother and sister boinking each other? Hm...

Modifié par Addai67, 04 avril 2013 - 01:00 .

[Degs29]

Addai67 wrote...

Joanna Lannister, Tywin's wife, was a favorite of Aerys the Mad King who had many, many bastards. Tywin fears, with justification, that not all of his children are his. But let's play a guessing game. Which is it, the dwarf who loves dragons or the brother and sister boinking each other? Hm...

Interesting.  That's something I did not know or at least something I forgot.

[TheJediSaint]

Addai67 wrote...

Joanna Lannister, Tywin's wife, was a favorite of Aerys the Mad King who had many, many bastards. Tywin fears, with justification, that not all of his children are his. But let's play a guessing game. Which is it, the dwarf who loves dragons or the brother and sister boinking each other? Hm...

I think you may be confusing Aerys with Aegon the Unworthy.  Aerys had no basterds as far as I've read.   But he did have a thing for Joanna Lannister, that is true.

[Addai]

TheJediSaint wrote...
I think you may be confusing Aerys with Aegon the Unworthy.  Aerys had no basterds as far as I've read.   But he did have a thing for Joanna Lannister, that is true.

Oh, probably yes.

[Brockololly]

Excellent.