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[billy the squid]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Imagine Roose on the Iron Throne

Book Bolton? Bleh not inspiring.

Putin Bolton...now that's another case. Don't ge tme wrong I am firmly of the believe the characters are written far better in the books, but the way he is visually described in the novels leves something to be desired.

I think that the Likes of Tywin and Roose have benefited in from the actors cast to play them. For instance, I can't read GRRM's Tywin in the books without picturing Charles Dance now. 

I look at many of Tywin's scenes from the adaptation, and I like what I've seen so far, but I have to read in conjunction with the books. I think it works as we only have secondary knowledge of Lord Tywin from other characters, never a POV from him. Which is also what makes him so interesting, ruthless calculating and intelligent, Tyrion notes that his father never gives away what he's thinking, which works very well with the lack of a Tywin POV.

But scenes like skinning a stag in season one, Tywin's scenes at Harrenhall. Just cement him as one of the best characters in ASOIF, I know they're not in the books, but to hear Tywin reflecting on the failures of his father, seems to hit harder than hearing them a lot later after certain events from his brother Kevan and Grand Maister Pycel.

Other characters, well, some of the re writes make me wince. Robb's plan to besiege Casterly Rock. Bad, just bad. Not even Robb a green commander would be insane enough to besiege Casterly Rock, the most heavily fortified and largest fortress after Harrenhall. That made me *headdesk*

[LPPrince]

Consider that if Tywin hadn't stood up, taken control of the Lannister army and wiped out the rivals that his father was too much of a bother to deal with, the state of the Seven Kingdoms would be drastically different in its present state.

Tywin, whether you like him or not, earned some level of respect.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
That said, I contest you that tywin would have been the best ruler for the seven kingdoms. The man is obssessed with his legacy and image in history, and is willing to take steps or go along with plans that would lead to the deaths of many people just for his own sake, rather than the kingdoms. He is too self-obssessed to make a good ruler, at least that is my view on the situation.

It's not his legacy he cares about (something tha the show put which I find meh). He cares about the legacy of the Lannisters, which is a different thing.

It is very likely true that Tywin holds the Lannister name as more important than the common good. And yes, I will agree that this is not to me, the sign of an ideal ruler.

But compared to everyone else in the 7 kingdoms? Tywin was the best candidate, in large part because he already ruled the 7 kingdoms for 20 years as Hand of the King (he started when he was only 20 years old), and it was marked by peace, order, and prosperity (the treasure was full unlike now where the crown is in debt). Even the people loved him for what he brought to them, more than the king (which led to him being jealous).
 
So he may not put that much importance on the happiness of the people. But the outcome of his rule did lead to them being happy. 

Tywin is a good military commander. An excellent politician. A great admnistrator. One who can be extremily ruthless when needed, but also lenient:

"when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Else wise no man will ever bend the knee to you"  - Tywin Lannister

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2013 - 05:23 .

[billy the squid]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I agree with most of what you said, mainly because I see the use of the mountain in this war as a means of practicality and effectiveness than any sign of the lannistar's morality.

That said, I contest you that tywin would have been the best ruler for the seven kingdoms. The man is obssessed with his legacy and image in history, and is willing to take steps or go along with plans that would lead to the deaths of many people just for his own sake, rather than the kingdoms. He is too self-obssessed to make a good ruler, at least that is my view on the situation.

Tywin ruled the 7 kingdoms for twenty years under Aerys Targarean. He was the power behind the throne, not the Targareans. 

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
That said, I contest you that tywin would have been the best ruler for the seven kingdoms. The man is obssessed with his legacy and image in history, and is willing to take steps or go along with plans that would lead to the deaths of many people just for his own sake, rather than the kingdoms. He is too self-obssessed to make a good ruler, at least that is my view on the situation.

It's not his legacy he cares about (something tha the show put which I find meh). He cares about the legacy of the Lannisters, which is a different thing.

It is very likely true that Tywin holds the Lannister name as more important than the common good. And yes, I will agree that this is not to me, the sign of an ideal ruler.

But compared to everyone else in the 7 kingdoms? Tywin was the best candidate, in large part because he already ruled the 7 kingdoms for 20 years as Hand of the King (he started when he was only 20 years old), and it was marked by peace, order, and prosperity (the treasure was full unlike now where the crown is in debt). Even the people loved him for what he brought to them, more than the king (which led to him being jealous).
 
So he may not put that much importance on the happiness of the people. But the outcome of his rule did lead to them being happy. 

It's actually the sad thing when looking at Tywin Lannister, he brother really sums it up, that Tywin was a hard man, but no harder than he was forced to be. He lost his wife, but never remarried, so I think he really did love her, which goes a long way to explain his hatred of Tyrion.

He was insulted by the Mad king, and earned his envy. Forced to take control of his House because his father was too weak and bringing it to ruin, watched him marry off his sister to the Freys. Which Tywin's sister is eternaly greatful to him for openly disagreeing with their father for that. 

Ruled the Kingdoms for twenty years. 

Yet is seen as one of the most maligned Lords in Westeros. Hence "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinion of sheep" He's never going to earn the other Houses' friendship, but he has their fear. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 06 juin 2013 - 05:40 .

[Mr.House]

billy the squid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
That said, I contest you that tywin would have been the best ruler for the seven kingdoms. The man is obssessed with his legacy and image in history, and is willing to take steps or go along with plans that would lead to the deaths of many people just for his own sake, rather than the kingdoms. He is too self-obssessed to make a good ruler, at least that is my view on the situation.

It's not his legacy he cares about (something tha the show put which I find meh). He cares about the legacy of the Lannisters, which is a different thing.

It is very likely true that Tywin holds the Lannister name as more important than the common good. And yes, I will agree that this is not to me, the sign of an ideal ruler.

But compared to everyone else in the 7 kingdoms? Tywin was the best candidate, in large part because he already ruled the 7 kingdoms for 20 years as Hand of the King (he started when he was only 20 years old), and it was marked by peace, order, and prosperity (the treasure was full unlike now where the crown is in debt). Even the people loved him for what he brought to them, more than the king (which led to him being jealous).
 
So he may not put that much importance on the happiness of the people. But the outcome of his rule did lead to them being happy. 

It's actually the sad thing when looking at Tywin Lannister, he brother really sums it up, that Tywin was a hard man, but no harder than he was forced to be. He lost his wife, but never remarried, so I think he really did love her, which goes a long way to explain his hatred of Tyrion.

He was insulted by the Mad king, and earned his envy. Forced to take control of his House because his father was too weak and bringing it to ruin, watched him marry off his sister to the Freys. Which Tywin's sister is eternaly greatful to him for openly disagreeing with their father for that. 

Ruled the Kingdoms for twenty years. 

Yet is seen as one of the most maligned Lords in Westeros. Hence "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinion of sheep" He's never going to earn the other Houses' friendship, but he has their fear. 

And this is why Tywin is my fav character. You summed it up great.

[Nerevar-as]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Tywin is a SoB. Just for using the Mountain he deserves the most painful and humillating death possible.

It amazes me how badassery > morality for some people, not just with Tywin.

It amazes me that stupidity > intelligence for most people. Especially when talking about politics and war. 

Regardless of what you think of Tywin as a person, he is a great leader and the best ruler the 7 kingdoms could have had. The Mountain, despite his cruel excesses, is actually an effective military commander, something that the books show. He won several battles and is the perfect blunt instrument.

Tywin is fully aware of what kind of man the Mountain is and it is evidently clear that he does not respect him in the least. But he does find him useful, which he is. Every great leader must know how to use the stick (coercion) and the carrots (incentives). The Mountain is the perfect stick.  

Made more efficient thanks to plausible deniability. Tywin can plausibly deny ordering the Mountain to do anything, on account of the latter's sadism and mania. And indeed, it's not clear at all that Tywin did order the Mountain to perform some of his most brutal and horrific actions. 

If Tywin was that intelligent, he wouldn´t have needed the RW. Being ruthless is not always being smart, Tywin just does his best to crush his enemies, and as a result all the North besides the Boltons are biding their time. Take Littlefinger, who manages to betray 3 different sides in as many books, from Stark to Lannister, and nobody seems to be aware of what he´s cooking now.

And Tywin´s last scene in ASoS leaves clear he can be quite the fool.

[HoonDing]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Tywin is a good military commander. An excellent politician. A great admnistrator. One who can be extremily ruthless when needed, but also lenient:

Tywin is not a good military commander. In the books he's outsmarted by a 14-year old boy again and again.

He's also not an *excellent* politician. He orders the murder of Elia Martell and her children, earning the eternal enmiety of Dorne - especially precarious considering two other Targaryen children escaped. Even the Red Wedding, while a short term victory, is in reality a long term defeat.

Modifié par HoonDing, 06 juin 2013 - 05:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Billy
Yea Tywin is a product of his upbringing. He saw his family almost collapse because of his weak yet good father, his mother's memory insulted, his sisters sold off to unadvantageous and insulting marriages, his House threatened by rebellion from their bannermen and mocked openly.

But with that harsh lesson, Tywin forgot the importance of compassion in a leader, and I think a very crucial part to his 20 years of success as Hand of the King was thanks to the moderating influence of Joanna, his wife and adviser (and I think the only person he saw as an equal).

Her death severely impacted him, not only emotionally but also in his performance as a leader and father (he seemed a lot more fatherly when she was around, according to Cersei).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2013 - 05:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nerevar-as wrote...
If Tywin was that intelligent, he wouldn´t have needed the RW. 

What?
So you'd rather have him waste this great opportunity (which evidence seem to suggest he engineered to begin with), so that he can prove himself to be smarter?

Tha't's very silly. 

And Tywin´s last scene in ASoS leaves clear he can be quite the fool.

He definitely can be yes. He can underestimate people. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2013 - 06:00 .

[Nerevar-as]

billy the squid wrote...

Yet is seen as one of the most maligned Lords in Westeros. Hence "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinion of sheep" He's never going to earn the other Houses' friendship, but he has their fear. 

And that´s the mistake. When **** hits the fan, your friends will help, those who are afraid of you will likely get popcorn and see you fall.

I have far more respect for Kevan, and so did his enemies.

[KnightofPhoenix]

HoonDing wrote...
Tywin is not a good military commander. In the books he's outsmarted by a 14-year old boy again and again.

Yes he is. He completely obliterates the Riverlands with ease, and shows tactical understanding.

But yes, Robb is a military prodigy (alongside the lieks of Stannis and maybe Euron) and definitely Tywin's superior. 
But being a military commander is also havign a grasp of strategy, and in that Robb was a horrible strategist who compromise his most importance alliance. It's in strategy that Tywin excells. 

He's also not an *excellent* politician. He orders the murder of Elia Martell and her children, earning the eternal enmiety of Dorne, then completely ignores Viserys and Daenerys growing up in the Free Cities.

Even the Red Wedding, while a short term victory, is in reality a long term defeat.

The enmity of Dorne is irrelevent, they can't do anything about it were he still alive and he couldn't have possibly predicted that they had an ace up their sleeve. 

As for Daenyris, Tywin was fightign a multi-front war, of course he is not going to focus on her. But had his power been secured, he coudl have delt with her as well.

As for the Red Wedding being a logn term defeat. Nope and that's a big part of the genius of his plan. The fallout will fall on the Freys and Boltons, not him because very few peopel actually know he was behind it all. A very common tactic of Tywin is plausiuble deniability and he does it to eprfection in the Red Wedding. People hate the Freys, not him, for what happened. He couldnt' care less about the Freys after they've outlvied their usefullness. 

[Nerevar-as]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
If Tywin was that intelligent, he wouldn´t have needed the RW. 

What?
So you'd rather have him waste this great opportunity (which evidence seem to suggest he engirnned to begin with), so that he can prove himself to be smarter?

Tha't's very silly. 

It´s a matter of time before the Manderlays start using southern meat for their pies. Bolton was also quite a fool, being northener he should have known most of the other families would take him down ASAP. Although from his scenes of ADwD, neither Bolton seems to have planned for defeat.

[Nerevar-as]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for the Red Wedding being a logn term defeat. Nope and that's a big part of the genius of his plan. The fallout will fall on the Freys and Boltons, not him because very few peopel actually know he was behind it all. A very common tactic of Tywin is plausiuble deniability and he does it to eprfection in the Red Wedding. People hate the Freys, not him, for what happened. He couldnt' care less about the Freys after they've outlvied their usefullness. 

Freys and Boltons are campaigning against Stannis on the Lannisters´ orders. I doubt the north wouldn´t add 2 + 2. Just look at the Manderlays.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nerevar-as wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
If Tywin was that intelligent, he wouldn´t have needed the RW. 

What?
So you'd rather have him waste this great opportunity (which evidence seem to suggest he engirnned to begin with), so that he can prove himself to be smarter?

Tha't's very silly. 

It´s a matter of time before the Manderlays start using southern meat for their pies. Bolton was also quite a fool, being northener he should have known most of the other families would take him down ASAP. Although from his scenes of ADwD, neither Bolton seems to have planned for defeat.

The Manderlays are going to exhaust themselves on the Freys and the Boltons. 

Which Tywin doens't mind, he made it clear he planned to give the North to Tyrion, while giving it off to Bolton, who of course everyoen will hate and remove for him. 

Yes Bolton is not that smart, but I am talkign aobut Tywin. Tywin used both him and the Freys perfectly, and all the fallout of the RW will fall on them. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nerevar-as wrote...
Freys and Boltons are campaigning against Stannis on the Lannisters´ orders. I doubt the north wouldn´t add 2 + 2. Just look at the Manderlays.

Which does not at all mean that Tywin was behind the RW. It means that after the RW, they allied with the Lannisters. 

[Nerevar-as]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
Freys and Boltons are campaigning against Stannis on the Lannisters´ orders. I doubt the north wouldn´t add 2 + 2. Just look at the Manderlays.

Which does not at all mean that Tywin was behind the RW. It means that after the RW, they allied with the Lannisters. 

I hope nobody was left alive who heard Bolton say Jaime sent his regards (which ironically is going to bite Jaime back, despite him having nothing to do with it). And Lady Stoneheart also knows (hard to predict, but there it is). As long as Tywin is around, there´ll be strife, because he only accepts to see his enemies defeated.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nerevar-as wrote...
I hope nobody was left alive who heard Bolton say Jaime sent his regards (which ironically is going to bite Jaime back, despite him having nothing to do with it). And Lady Stoneheart also knows (hard to predict, but there it is). As long as Tywin is around, there´ll be strife, because he only accepts to see his enemies defeated.

Nobody was alive when he said that. Only Freys and his own men heard it. Stoneheart he could not have predicted. 

Of course Tywin would have to exhert himself to bring back peace and stability and yes he does have to deal with miscontentment. Which I think he is fully capable of doing and is willing to be lenient to those who bend the knee as he told Joffrey. 

When I say he is an excellent politician, I do not say he is god wo can forsee all possible outcomes and have the best of plans. That's not the kind of world ASoIaF is, thank the gods. He makes mistakes, and like all policies, there are cons he needs to deal with. 

But compared to everyone else in Westeros? He was the best politician. Yes even better than Petyr, who only excels at creating chaos and taking advantage of it, not in building anything substantial or great. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2013 - 06:18 .

[Nerevar-as]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But compared to everyone else in Westeros? He was the best politician. Yes even better than Petyr, who only excels at creating chaos and taking advantage of it, not in building anything substantial or great. 

You can´t know that, for the very reason we still have no idea what Littlefinger actually wants.

I´d say Kevan´s a better politician, he almost got peace despite Cersei being in full idiot mode. Tywin´s sister also seemed quite intelligent and more savvy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nerevar-as wrote...
You can´t know that, for the very reason we still have no idea what Littlefinger actually wants.

I´d say Kevan´s a better politician, he almost got peace despite Cersei being in full idiot mode. Tywin´s sister also seemed quite intelligent and more savvy.

It's pretty clear what Petyr wants. To move up the ladder. 

And what makes you think Tywin would not have been able to get that peace? Kevan is Tywin's pupil. There is nothing Kevan did that I do not think Tywin would have done. Indeed, it's very likely that Kevan was continuing Tywin's strategy which he was privy to, being the man's closest adviser. 

Kevan is great and I love him. And amognst the Lannisters, he is the cloest to being an equal to Tywin in political acumen. But not quite his equal. Where Kevan surpasses Tywin is in his lack of emotional baggage. 

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Billy
Yea Tywin is a product of his upbringing. He saw his family almost collapse because of his weak yet good father, his mother's memory insulted, his sisters sold off to unadvantageous and insulting marriages, his House threatened by rebellion from their bannermen and mocked openly.

But with that harsh lesson, Tywin forgot the importance of compassion in a leader, and I think a very crucial part to his 20 years of success as Hand of the King was thanks to the moderating influence of Joanna, his wife and adviser (and I think the only person he saw as an equal).

Her death severely impacted him, not only emotionally but also in his performance as a leader and father (he seemed a lot more fatherly when she was around, according to Cersei).

Exactly. His sister in the later books tells Tyrion, that "The best part of Tywin died with Joanna"

I don't think it may have impacted his decisions as a leader so much, rather she was a moderating force, his decisions would have still been prediicated on the ascendancy of House Lannister. But as a father certainly, It had a huge impact. I think he was always a hard, man and had to be, but where his wife could coach a gentler behaviour with his family, Tywin knows only ruthless discipline.

[LPPrince]

Basically, Joanna could keep Tywin in check.

[Nerevar-as]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
You can´t know that, for the very reason we still have no idea what Littlefinger actually wants.

I´d say Kevan´s a better politician, he almost got peace despite Cersei being in full idiot mode. Tywin´s sister also seemed quite intelligent and more savvy.

It's pretty clear what Petyr wants. To move up the ladder. 

And what makes you think Tywin would not have been able to get that peace? Kevan is Tywin's pupil. There is nothing Kevan did that I do not think Tywin would have done. Indeed, it's very likely that Kevan was continuing Tywin's strategy which he was privy to, being the man's closest adviser. 

Kevan is great and I love him. And amognst the Lannisters, he is the cloest to being an equal to Tywin in political acumen. But not quite his equal. Where Kevan surpasses Tywin is in his lack of emotional baggage. 

I have my doubts.

And do you think Tywin knew about Cersei & Jaime?

[LPPrince]

Tywin suspects. After all, Jaime and Cersei were caught with each other when they were veeery young, and were then moved to rooms far apart in their castle.

Part of the reason Tywin wants to marry Cersei off is to satisfy his own desire to get rid of the rumors.

[KnightofPhoenix]

billy the squid wrote...
Exactly. His sister in the later books tells Tyrion, that "The best part of Tywin died with Joanna" 

I don't think it may have impacted his decisions as a leader so much, rather she was a moderating force, his decisions would have still been prediicated on the ascendancy of House Lannister. But as a father certainly, It had a huge impact. I think he was always a hard, man and had to be, but where his wife could coach a gentler behaviour with his family, Tywin knows only ruthless discipline.

Yes I definitelydo not believe that Joanna would have made Tywin less admant about the predominance of Houe Lannister. I am not even sure it's not a goal she shared to begin with. But I think she would have been able to refine his plans a bit. 

A big flaw in Tywin's rationale is his belief that popular opinion is irrelevant (which is what the nobility always thought).  And yes people are like mud, but with proper leadership they can become a substantial leverage. And I feel that Tywin, like most of his peers, ignore that with the exception of House Tyrell. I think that maybe Joanna may have been able to make Tywin more empathetic towards the people.