11084 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nerevar-as wrote...
And do you think Tywin knew about Cersei & Jaime? 

Yes I think he does. I also think he acts in denial of it. I dont think he seems to realize that it's actually love, especially on Jaime's part. 

Joanna would have been more equipped, mehtinks, to deal with this situation. Tywin is a pretty bad father, much  like Ned Stark but on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yet is seen as one of the most maligned Lords in Westeros. Hence "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinion of sheep" He's never going to earn the other Houses' friendship, but he has their fear. 

And that´s the mistake. When **** hits the fan, your friends will help, those who are afraid of you will likely get popcorn and see you fall.

I have far more respect for Kevan, and so did his enemies.

Starks' friends didn't come to their aid when they were being exterminated by the Lannisters did they. They might not help, but they will never dare cross you, with the fate of House Reyne and Tarbeck still in living memory. 

[RedArmyShogun]

I lol'd

[KnightofPhoenix]

billy the squid wrote...
Starks' friends didn't come to their aid when they were being exterminated by the Lannisters did they. They might not help, but they will never dare cross you, with the fate of House Reyne and Tarbeck still in living memory. 

Spoilers highlight:
Yea let's just say that The Rains of Castamere is still effective even after Tywin's death. 

I am convinced these days that Jaime Lannister can become a very good leader and he should probably sit on the Iron Throne or at least rule Casterly Rock. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2013 - 06:50 .

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Exactly. His sister in the later books tells Tyrion, that "The best part of Tywin died with Joanna" 

I don't think it may have impacted his decisions as a leader so much, rather she was a moderating force, his decisions would have still been prediicated on the ascendancy of House Lannister. But as a father certainly, It had a huge impact. I think he was always a hard, man and had to be, but where his wife could coach a gentler behaviour with his family, Tywin knows only ruthless discipline.

Yes I definitelydo not believe that Joanna would have made Tywin less admant about the predominance of Houe Lannister. I am not even sure it's not a goal she shared to begin with. But I think she would have been able to refine his plans a bit. 

A big flaw in Tywin's rationale is his belief that popular opinion is irrelevant (which is what the nobility always thought).  And yes people are like mud, but with proper leadership they can become a substantial leverage. And I feel that Tywin, like most of his peers, ignore that with the exception of House Tyrell. I think that maybe Joanna may have been able to make Tywin more empathetic towards the people. 

Yeah, from what little we know I think she would have provided an effective alternative to Tywin's methods, being loved by people. With that gone, what was left was Tywin's brutal political accumen executed with ruthless efficiency.

I don't think Tywin underestimates popular opinion, rather he can't change how he's seen so he doesn't try. Instead he makes sure no one challenges House Lannister's dominance, through fear, intimidation, politics and military force. While incredibly effective at earning their respect had his wife been alive, she would have provided a counterweight to Tywin.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Seraph Cross wrote...
That's an understatement. I also see it a bit strange that he blames Tyrion for Joanna's death. I mean its not like Tyrion chose to be born. " You killed your mother " I mean.. really? I can understand the bitterness but still. 

Yes, I think that's very foolish of him.

That said, there might be something else about it, but it's very spoilerific. It's still a theory but, I find it appealing. 

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Starks' friends didn't come to their aid when they were being exterminated by the Lannisters did they. They might not help, but they will never dare cross you, with the fate of House Reyne and Tarbeck still in living memory. 

Spoilers highlight:
Yea let's just say that The Rains of Castamere is still effective even after Tywin's death. 

I am convinced these days that Jaime Lannister can become a very good leader and he should probably sit on the Iron Throne or at least rule Casterly Rock. 

I think so, his dealing with the siege of Riverrun later in the books made me laugh. Returning the son in a catapult if they don't surrender. 

After losing his hand, he seems to have sat up and taken note that he can be an effective politician and military commander, he doesn't have to be "just" a knight. Which is what Tywin always wanted. I hope he does become Lord of Casterly Rock, for all his problems he seems a better ruler that Cersi.

[billy the squid]

Seraph Cross wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yet is seen as one of the most maligned Lords in Westeros. Hence "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinion of sheep" He's never going to earn the other Houses' friendship, but he has their fear. 

And that´s the mistake. When **** hits the fan, your friends will help, those who are afraid of you will likely get popcorn and see you fall.

I have far more respect for Kevan, and so did his enemies.

Starks' friends didn't come to their aid when they were being exterminated by the Lannisters did they. They might not help, but they will never dare cross you, with the fate of House Reyne and Tarbeck still in living memory. 

And what will happen if and/or when Targeryn comes with her dragons?

Well friends wouldn't save the Starks, Baratheons, Tully's Lannisters etc. If Dayneris has any common sense, she'll let them bend the knee. Especially given the coming Winter. But given the mess she's making in upsetting the socio economic balance in the Free cites I have no idea.

[Nerevar-as]

LPPrince wrote...

Tywin suspects. After all, Jaime and Cersei were caught with each other when they were veeery young, and were then moved to rooms far apart in their castle.

Part of the reason Tywin wants to marry Cersei off is to satisfy his own desire to get rid of the rumors.

I think if Tywin had been told about the first time he would have been more careful with them, but if I remember well the one who caught them only told their mother, and she died shortly afterwards.

[Mr.House]

Seraph Cross wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
If Tywin was that intelligent, he wouldn´t have needed the RW. 

What?
So you'd rather have him waste this great opportunity (which evidence seem to suggest he engineered to begin with), so that he can prove himself to be smarter?

Tha't's very silly. 

And Tywin´s last scene in ASoS leaves clear he can be quite the fool.

He definitely can be yes. He can underestimate people. 

That's an understatement. I also see it a bit strange that he blames Tyrion for Joanna's death. I mean its not like Tyrion chose to be born. " You killed your mother " I mean.. really? I can understand the bitterness but still.

I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not change the fact he is a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

Modifié par Mr.House, 06 juin 2013 - 07:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mr.House wrote...
I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not changet he fact he was a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

SPoILERS:

I am leaning towards the theory that Tyrion is in fact not Tywin's son but Aerys' and that's why Tywin hates him so much, either because he knows or suspects. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2013 - 07:26 .

[Mr.House]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not changet he fact he was a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

SPoILERS:

I am leaning towards the theory that Tyrion is in fact not Tywin's son but Aerys' and that's why Tywin hates him so much, either because he knows or suspects. 

Ah that theory. Ya I also like that one too, would shed alot of light on the actions of Tywin.

[LPPrince]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not changet he fact he was a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

SPoILERS:

I am leaning towards the theory that Tyrion is in fact not Tywin's son but Aerys' and that's why Tywin hates him so much, either because he knows or suspects. 

Aye, that theory. A good one.

[Milan92]

Mr.House wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not changet he fact he was a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

SPoILERS:

I am leaning towards the theory that Tyrion is in fact not Tywin's son but Aerys' and that's why Tywin hates him so much, either because he knows or suspects. 

Ah that theory. Ya I also like that one too, would shed alot of light on the actions of Tywin.

Well atleast that would make Tyrion the first Lannister who is not the product of incest 

[Costin_Razvan]

That's some theory you have there, seems too far fetched to me.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2013 - 07:26 .

[LPPrince]

Aerys did have interest in Joanna.

[Costin_Razvan]

I am well aware of that, but even so it still seems rather unlikely as I see it.

[chcknwng]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
And do you think Tywin knew about Cersei & Jaime? 

Yes I think he does. I also think he acts in denial of it. I dont think he seems to realize that it's actually love, especially on Jaime's part. 

Joanna would have been more equipped, mehtinks, to deal with this situation. Tywin is a pretty bad father, much  like Ned Stark but on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

Tywin knew. I forgot where but it was strongly implied in the book that he knew what was going on. It would really surprise me if he didn't, given the person he was.

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yet is seen as one of the most maligned Lords in Westeros. Hence "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinion of sheep" He's never going to earn the other Houses' friendship, but he has their fear. 

And that´s the mistake. When **** hits the fan, your friends will help, those who are afraid of you will likely get popcorn and see you fall.

I have far more respect for Kevan, and so did his enemies. 

Starks' friends didn't come to their aid when they were being exterminated by the Lannisters did they. They might not help, but they will never dare cross you, with the fate of House Reyne and Tarbeck still in living memory. 

Robb didn't have anyone close. Bolton made sure of that. 

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not changet he fact he was a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

SPoILERS:

I am leaning towards the theory that Tyrion is in fact not Tywin's son but Aerys' and that's why Tywin hates him so much, either because he knows or suspects. 

Interesting, but I doubt it. Do we have any indication that he is infact Aery's bastard? Other than Aery's was jealouse of Tywin's marriage to Joanna.

[Nerevar-as]

LPPrince wrote...

Aerys did have interest in Joanna.

Then I´d bet more on Jaime & Cersei...