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[billy the squid]

Seraph Cross wrote...

Also, Tywin is pretty much a hypocrite

" A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinion of sheep "

But what does Tywin care about more than anything else?
The Lannister name. The Lannister legacy.

Yous seem to be mistaking Legacy for how Tywin and House Lannister is viewed by others. Don't. His Legacy is House Lannister's dominance and he says explicitly in that great sene in season one when he's skinning the stag. 

Tywin, is somewhat of a hypocrite, berating Tyrion on his whoring, but then sleeping with Shae. Though I think he's more concerned about the idea that Tyrion and his House will be derided and laughed at for his son's actions, something Tywin has never countenenced

[chcknwng]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not changet he fact he was a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

SPoILERS:

 

that's a very popular assumption. I'm on the fence as to that one. I don't think Tywin meant it when he said "you're not my son" to Tyrion but it could be literal.

On the other han, Jaime and the Hound were nice person born into unfortunate situations. I do like Jaime's POV a lot.

Seraph Cross wrote...

Also, Tywin is pretty much a hypocrite

" A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinion of sheep "

But what does Tywin care about more than anything else?
The Lannister name. The Lannister legacy.

I don't think he cared about how the world view him and the Lannisters, but he did work hard to make sure his family lived up to his standard. 

Tywin Lannister was a great man. His moves in the Baratheon uprising basically sealed the fate of the Targaeryns. That's how powerful he is. He also knew how to rule, and did so very effectively. He is also right that Westeros couldn't stand a long war with winter coming, and he had a great strategy to cut the war short. 

Spoiler if you haven't read through book 3.
And he succeed, as ever. I suspect there is only one wrong move in his whole life, and that cost his life. 

Modifié par wngmv, 06 juin 2013 - 07:39 .

[Mr.House]

Also Tyrions whoring is publicly knowing, Tywin sleeping with ****s is not public knowledge.

[billy the squid]

Seraph Cross wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Starks' friends didn't come to their aid when they were being exterminated by the Lannisters did they. They might not help, but they will never dare cross you, with the fate of House Reyne and Tarbeck still in living memory. 

Spoilers highlight:
Yea let's just say that The Rains of Castamere is still effective even after Tywin's death. 

I am convinced these days that Jaime Lannister can become a very good leader and he should probably sit on the Iron Throne or at least rule Casterly Rock. 

I think so, his dealing with the siege of Riverrun later in the books made me laugh. Returning the son in a catapult if they don't surrender. 

After losing his hand, he seems to have sat up and taken note that he can be an effective politician and military commander, he doesn't have to be "just" a knight. Which is what Tywin always wanted. I hope he does become Lord of Casterly Rock, for all his problems he seems a better ruler that Cersi.

Tywin always wanted him to be a miitary commander/politician?

Also, lol@cercei. She's so borderline.

Damn i need to order the books

He wanted him to be Lord of Casterly Rock and take his place. Something that Tywin rails against when Jamie refuses to renounce his vows to the Kingsguard. He's always been disapointed in Jamie.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I find that theory very unlikely. Even before Aerys became the deranged lunatic he was, I'd imagine Joanna was a proud woman like most Lannisters. It seems Tywin really loved her, perhaps the only thing he loved other than family legacy. If he suspected such a thing, he would have surely acted upon that. I'm sure that even Tywin knows that people like Varys have their uses here.

If anything Tyrion is the most like Tywin, he shares his intellect and cunning but is not so proud and certain of his actions, not so jaded and cold either.

[chcknwng]

billy the squid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not changet he fact he was a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

SPoILERS:

I am leaning towards the theory that Tyrion is in fact not Tywin's son but Aerys' and that's why Tywin hates him so much, either because he knows or suspects. 

Interesting, but I doubt it. Do we have any indication that he is infact Aery's bastard? Other than Aery's was jealouse of Tywin's marriage to Joanna.

Not really. You'd have to count (spoiler for book 5):







1. Tywin said "You are not my son" right before he died.
2. According to Ser Barristan, Aery said out loud in Tywin's wedding that he had hoped the King would still have the right of the first night.
3. At this point it's pretty clear that Tyrion, Dany and Jon (duh) are the protagonists ot the book and are supposed to ride the 3 dragons. As far as we know only Targaeryns can ride dragons. Jon was/is/should be a Targ. So that leaves Tyrion to be the bastard of Aerys.

Modifié par wngmv, 06 juin 2013 - 08:03 .

[Mr.House]

Jons true parentage is a massive debate with several theories.

[chcknwng]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

I find that theory very unlikely. Even before Aerys became the deranged lunatic he was, I'd imagine Joanna was a proud woman like most Lannisters. It seems Tywin really loved her, perhaps the only thing he loved other than family legacy. If he suspected such a thing, he would have surely acted upon that. I'm sure that even Tywin knows that people like Varys have their uses here.

If anything Tyrion is the most like Tywin, he shares his intellect and cunning but is not so proud and certain of his actions, not so jaded and cold either.

Tywin detested Varys. He was very against the idea of bringing in Varys to Aerys in the first place. Tywin had never acknowledged the fact that Tyrion was most like him. Actually whenever someone brought that up you can tell he's annoyed. The fact that Tyrion was like Tywin didn't prove that he's Tywin's son.

Tyrion being Aerys' son is not the wildest assumptin out there. I've seen more baseless assumptions coming into fruit with this series. 

[LPPrince]

Mr.House wrote...

Jons true parentage is a massive debate with several theories.

R+L=J

[chcknwng]

Seraph Cross wrote...

Also, if Tyrion is not Tywin's son then is he still Joanna's?

How is Jon a Targaeryn?

That's why I stopped watching TV series. There is nothing wrong with the series, but the books contained so many hints. It's just downright impossible to act them out. 


It's strongly suspected that Jon is not Ned's bastard. His parents are Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. It's almost a known fact now that those two are in love with each other. Lyanna was not crazy about Robert because she had knew Robert was a philander in nature. 

Google R+L=J and you'll get the full story.

[Mr.House]

LPPrince wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Jons true parentage is a massive debate with several theories.

R+L=J

Oh you.

[LPPrince]

Mr.House wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Jons true parentage is a massive debate with several theories.

R+L=J

Oh you.

Oh me.

[chcknwng]

Thanks to you guys I'm back to ASOIAF forum reading conspiracies....

[billy the squid]

wngmv wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not changet he fact he was a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

SPoILERS:

I am leaning towards the theory that Tyrion is in fact not Tywin's son but Aerys' and that's why Tywin hates him so much, either because he knows or suspects. 

Interesting, but I doubt it. Do we have any indication that he is infact Aery's bastard? Other than Aery's was jealouse of Tywin's marriage to Joanna.

Not really. You'd have to count (spoiler for book 5):







1. Tywin said "You are not my son" right before he died.
2. According to Ser Barristan, Aery said out loud in Tywin's wedding that he had hoped the King would still have the right of the first night.
3. At this point it's pretty clear that Tyrion, Dany and Jon (duh) are the protagonists ot the book and are supposed to ride the 3 dragons. As far as we know only Targaeryns can ride dragons. Jon was/is/should be a Targ. So that leaves Tyrion to be the bastard of Aerys.

1) I doubt it, it's not literal, it's the disinheritence of Tyrion by Tywin, who is defiant to the last and despises him. If he wasn't his son he would have disinherited him far earlier. 

2) Yeah, I know that one, but I think it's a huge stretch to jump from Aerys' jealousy of Tywin's marriage to Joanna, to Tyrion being his bastard son. Aerys was already envious of Tywin's power, the respect he was held in and the rumours that he was running the kingdom, not Aerys. 

3) Is it? We still have Stannis as the prince who was promised (possibly), the Second Targaryean and Jon's fate remains to be seen. It's quite a jump to conclude that Jon and Tyrion are bastard Targayeans. 

[Nerevar-as]

billy the squid wrote...

Starks' friends didn't come to their aid when they were being exterminated by the Lannisters did they. They might not help, but they will never dare cross you, with the fate of House Reyne and Tarbeck still in living memory. 

The North Remembers. And prepares meat pies.

And it´s not like they had the chance. Their loyal troops were massacred at the RW, and several important people taken hostage. But most are still loyal.

[legion999]

Well this thread has just turned into a spoiler fest. I thought that was the point of the other thread.

[Nerevar-as]

wngmv wrote...

Seraph Cross wrote...

Also, if Tyrion is not Tywin's son then is he still Joanna's?

How is Jon a Targaeryn?

That's why I stopped watching TV series. There is nothing wrong with the series, but the books contained so many hints. It's just downright impossible to act them out. 


It's strongly suspected that Jon is not Ned's bastard. His parents are Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. It's almost a known fact now that those two are in love with each other. Lyanna was not crazy about Robert because she had knew Robert was a philander in nature. 

Google R+L=J and you'll get the full story.

It´s very clear (or a hell of a mislead) that Lianna died from complications in childbirth. And it would be strange for Ned to remember 16 years later if the child had also died. It´s also confirmed Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, but not if she felt the same.

In the books Dany (CoK - Tv didn´t, so a certain development is going to look like an ***pull in season 5) has a vision where Rhaegar, I think, talks about the 3 heads of the dragon while holding Aegon, so I don´t bet for Tyrion to be a Targ. Besides, he´s more awesome if he isn´t.

[Nerevar-as]

legion999 wrote...

Well this thread has just turned into a spoiler fest. I thought that was the point of the other thread.

Actually most are theories from reading the material adapted so far.

[chcknwng]

billy the squid wrote...

wngmv wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
I see it because Tywin loved her alot, and because she died giving birth to Tyrion who is a dwarf he decides to put his grief on his son which does lead to issues in the future. It's one of Tywins biggest mistakes. Tywin is not perfect. He is a flawed man who did make mistakes, mistakes that will cost him but that does not changet he fact he was a great leader and warrior who was the true king for 20 years.

SPoILERS:

I am leaning towards the theory that Tyrion is in fact not Tywin's son but Aerys' and that's why Tywin hates him so much, either because he knows or suspects. 

Interesting, but I doubt it. Do we have any indication that he is infact Aery's bastard? Other than Aery's was jealouse of Tywin's marriage to Joanna.

Not really. You'd have to count (spoiler for book 5):







1. Tywin said "You are not my son" right before he died.
2. According to Ser Barristan, Aery said out loud in Tywin's wedding that he had hoped the King would still have the right of the first night.
3. At this point it's pretty clear that Tyrion, Dany and Jon (duh) are the protagonists ot the book and are supposed to ride the 3 dragons. As far as we know only Targaeryns can ride dragons. Jon was/is/should be a Targ. So that leaves Tyrion to be the bastard of Aerys.

1) I doubt it, it's not literal, it's the disinheritence of Tyrion by Tywin, who is defiant to the last and despises him. If he wasn't his son he would have disinherited him far earlier. 

2) Yeah, I know that one, but I think it's a huge stretch to jump from Aerys' jealousy of Tywin's marriage to Joanna, to Tyrion being his bastard son. Aerys was already envious of Tywin's power, the respect he was held in and the rumours that he was running the kingdom, not Aerys. 

3) Is it? We still have Stannis as the prince who was promised (possibly), the Second Targaryean and Jon's fate remains to be seen. It's quite a jump to conclude that Jon and Tyrion are bastard Targayeans. 

1. I agree. But at that point what's the use to disinherit Tyrion?

2. It shows Aerys wanted to have sex with Johanna. But it's a long stretch to go from there to her carrying a son for Aerys. But again, how much warning we had for Young Griff?

3. You don't really believe Stannis as TPWP right? It's a farce. R+L=J has been floating around for 17 years so it's not really a jump. I gave YG some credit that maybe he's a real Targ but personally I don't give a dime if he lived or died.

Those are the theories. I myself are skeptical of them. If you visit westeros.org at all you know what kind of theories they come up with. But again, a guy managed to guess exactly the deal with Young Griff the day before aDwD was released. So you never know.

[Nerevar-as]

wngmv wrote...

2. It shows Aerys wanted to have sex with Johanna. But it's a long stretch to go from there to her carrying a son for Aerys. But again, how much warning we had for Young Griff?

Since A Clash of Kings. In plain sight when you know what it was.

[chcknwng]

Nerevar-as wrote...

It´s very clear (or a hell of a mislead) that Lianna died from complications in childbirth. And it would be strange for Ned to remember 16 years later if the child had also died. It´s also confirmed Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, but not if she felt the same.

In the books Dany (CoK - Tv didn´t, so a certain development is going to look like an ***pull in season 5) has a vision where Rhaegar, I think, talks about the 3 heads of the dragon while holding Aegon, so I don´t bet for Tyrion to be a Targ. Besides, he´s more awesome if he isn´t.

She is. I remember reading (not sure where) Lyanna told someone that Robert is handsome and all, but he was not a reliable man. Rhaegar on the other hand is a great man. Or something similar. At that point she was already promised to Robert. 

Here's the original text as to what Dany saw:

She also sees a man (Rhaegar Targaryen) and overhears him talking to a woman nursing a baby (Elia Martell). "Aegon…What better name for a king…He is the prince that was promised, and his isthe song of ice and fire"; and when Rhaegar's eyes meet Dany’s, he says either to her or Elia, "There must be one more…The dragon has three heads", and he picks up a silver harp and begins to play.

But the thing is Rhaegar was wrong before about TPWP. So Aegon is not necessrily the third head.