11084 réponses à ce sujet

[chcknwng]

Nerevar-as wrote...

wngmv wrote...

2. It shows Aerys wanted to have sex with Johanna. But it's a long stretch to go from there to her carrying a son for Aerys. But again, how much warning we had for Young Griff?

Since A Clash of Kings. In plain sight when you know what it was.

Not really. Tell me. I haven't gone back to re-read the book after I finished aDwD.

[LPPrince]

http://www.vulture.c...ings-chart.html

[Addai]

MisterJB wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Tywin is a SoB. Just for using the Mountain he deserves the most painful and humillating death possible.

It amazes me how badassery > morality for some people, not just with Tywin.

I believe that is called "warfare". Tywin releases Gregor Clegane and he pillages his way through the Trident. Robb sends his mean in search of Jaime and they kill anyone who assisted the Lannisters. The Tyrell close the roads South which causes an immense surge of hunger in King's Landing, Daenerys has naught bu good intentions but she leaves naught but destruction and death in her path.
I don't really believe anyone in GRRM's world can claim the moral high ground. Maybe Stannis, I remember him gelding his own soldiers.

It's no accident that Tywin is known for some of the worst atrocities in the books apart from the Targaryens.  Tywin ordered the wanton terrorizing of civilians and sent the best man for that job- Robb was looking for Jaime and some of his men committed atrocities in the process- there is a big difference.  The Rains didn't need to be eliminated down to the last woman and child.  Slaughtering all the men would do the same job.  Elia Martell didn't need to be raped and watch her babies die before her eyes.  That was Tywin's doing.  Stannis has a ways to go to catch up.

[RobRam10]

Seraph Cross wrote...

Who do you guys consider the main characters in the series? I know this show has several POV's but still. Name 3-5 if you want to

Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon

[Mr.House]

Seraph Cross wrote...

Who do you guys consider the main characters in the series? I know this show has several POV's but still. Name 3-5 if you want to

Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon

[KOM_95]

Seraph Cross wrote...

Who do you guys consider the main characters in the series? I know this show has several POV's but still. Name 3-5 if you want to

Jon Snow, Daenerys and Tyrion. I cant see them all living until the end of the series.
At least one will die, probably Dany as she seems the least like an outcast and is the most cliched and Martin loves killing off the cliche characters eg Robb Stark.

[Nerevar-as]

wngmv wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

wngmv wrote...

2. It shows Aerys wanted to have sex with Johanna. But it's a long stretch to go from there to her carrying a son for Aerys. But again, how much warning we had for Young Griff?

Since A Clash of Kings. In plain sight when you know what it was.

Not really. Tell me. I haven't gone back to re-read the book after I finished aDwD.

Dany´s vision in fact. After ADWD, I consider Rhaegar meant the baby and her, and there´s still an unrevealed one, although it looks to be Jon, there´s even a white dragon after all.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I wonder how long it will take for the boltons, freys, and lannistar's to turn on eachother. These alliances don't really tend to hold up once the enemies are dealt with, the prizes are dealt out, and greed + lust for power begin to seep into people.

[Nerevar-as]

KOM_95 wrote...

Seraph Cross wrote...

Who do you guys consider the main characters in the series? I know this show has several POV's but still. Name 3-5 if you want to

Jon Snow, Daenerys and Tyrion. I cant see them all living until the end of the series.
At least one will die, probably Dany as she seems the least like an outcast and is the most cliched and Martin loves killing off the cliche characters eg Robb Stark.

So for ASoI&F her surviving would be the surprise.

Martin has stated he´s going for a bittersweet ending, but I have no idea what he considers bittersweet. Let´s hope it´s not the same as Walters & Hudson, but I wouldn´t be surprised if no main character survives the ending.

[BellPeppers&Beef023]

Addai67 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Tywin is a SoB. Just for using the Mountain he deserves the most painful and humillating death possible.

It amazes me how badassery > morality for some people, not just with Tywin.

I believe that is called "warfare". Tywin releases Gregor Clegane and he pillages his way through the Trident. Robb sends his mean in search of Jaime and they kill anyone who assisted the Lannisters. The Tyrell close the roads South which causes an immense surge of hunger in King's Landing, Daenerys has naught bu good intentions but she leaves naught but destruction and death in her path.
I don't really believe anyone in GRRM's world can claim the moral high ground. Maybe Stannis, I remember him gelding his own soldiers.

It's no accident that Tywin is known for some of the worst atrocities in the books apart from the Targaryens.  Tywin ordered the wanton terrorizing of civilians and sent the best man for that job- Robb was looking for Jaime and some of his men committed atrocities in the process- there is a big difference.  The Rains didn't need to be eliminated down to the last woman and child.  Slaughtering all the men would do the same job.  Elia Martell didn't need to be raped and watch her babies die before her eyes.  That was Tywin's doing.  Stannis has a ways to go to catch up.

Thank you for reminding me how awesome it felt to read Tyrion's chapters in ASOS. Tywin is ruthless, if not outright sadistic, even to his own family. I tend to regard characters like this as scum, irregardless of how "effective" of a ruler he is.

[billy the squid]

Addai67 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Tywin is a SoB. Just for using the Mountain he deserves the most painful and humillating death possible.

It amazes me how badassery > morality for some people, not just with Tywin.

I believe that is called "warfare". Tywin releases Gregor Clegane and he pillages his way through the Trident. Robb sends his mean in search of Jaime and they kill anyone who assisted the Lannisters. The Tyrell close the roads South which causes an immense surge of hunger in King's Landing, Daenerys has naught bu good intentions but she leaves naught but destruction and death in her path.
I don't really believe anyone in GRRM's world can claim the moral high ground. Maybe Stannis, I remember him gelding his own soldiers.

It's no accident that Tywin is known for some of the worst atrocities in the books apart from the Targaryens.  Tywin ordered the wanton terrorizing of civilians and sent the best man for that job- Robb was looking for Jaime and some of his men committed atrocities in the process- there is a big difference.  The Rains didn't need to be eliminated down to the last woman and child.  Slaughtering all the men would do the same job.  Elia Martell didn't need to be raped and watch her babies die before her eyes.  That was Tywin's doing.  Stannis has a ways to go to catch up.

He did what needed to be done. Removed the Targaryans, something Robert understood, but wouldn't do, and something Ned refused to understand. Heroes can't be seen to kill children.

Tywin himself says Elia Martell, didn't need to die, but he simply hadn't thought to give that command to spare her, he was more preoccupied with protecting Jamie from Aery's retaliation and making sure he was on the winning side of the War. He hadn't yet realised that Gregor was a brutal sadist, and commented that Aemory Lorche was a fool, the killing was done far too brutally.

It's a war, he brings the Riverlands to it's knees. Tywin has never done things by half measures, of course he used the Mountain. It's the oldest medieval tactic there is, the English used it in the 100 years war against France to cripple France's ability to fight.

The Reynes were exterminated as an example that a Lannister always pays his debts, House Tarbeck had rebelled once already, holding hostage Lannisters. They then did it again with House Reyne. To show mercy would be weak and invite other rebellions. Destroying them root and stem, made sure no other vassals would dare turn against House Lannister. Tywin only had to send a bard to play the Rains of Castamere, to quel any notion of rebellion. Or do you think when their children grew up they would forget what House Lannister did to their parents?

Modifié par billy the squid, 06 juin 2013 - 09:58 .

[Nerevar-as]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I wonder how long it will take for the boltons, freys, and lannistar's to turn on eachother. These alliances don't really tend to hold up once the enemies are dealt with, the prizes are dealt out, and greed + lust for power begin to seep into people.

Not really. The Boltons got the North, the Freys the middle and the Lannisters removed a threat to their power.

Of course, most of the north is really angry now, wants revenge, and have patience.

[Addai]

billy the squid wrote...

The Reynes were exterminated as an example that a Lannister always pays his debts, House Tarbeck had rebelled once already, holding hostage Lannisters. They then did it again with House Reyne. To show mercy would be weak and invite other rebellions. Destroying them root and stem, made sure no other vassals would dare turn against House Lannister. Tywin only had to send a bard to play the Rains of Castamere, to quel any notion of rebellion. Or do you think when their children grew up they would forget what House Lannister did to their parents?

Now everyone remembers, and rather than treat with the Lannisters the Starks know they have to fight to the death.  Half measures sometimes mean people meet you halfway.

[Nerevar-as]

billy the squid wrote...

He did what needed to be done. Removed the Targaryans, something Robert understood, but wouldn't do, and something Ned refused to understand. Heroes can't be seen to kill children.

Tywin himself says Elia Martell, didn't need to die, but he simply hadn't thought to give that command to spare her, he was more preoccupied with protecting Jamie from Aery's retaliation and making sure he was on the winning side of the War. He hadn't yet realised that Gregor was a brutal sadist, and commented that Aemory Lorche was a fool, the killing was done far too brutally.

It's a war, he brings the Riverlands to it's knees. Tywin has never done things by half measures, of course he used the Mountain. It's the oldest medieval tactic there is, the English used it in the 100 years war against France to cripple France's ability to fight.

The Reynes were exterminated as an example that a Lannister always pays his debts, House Tarbeck had rebelled once already, holding hostage Lannisters. They then did it again with House Reyne. To show mercy would be weak and invite other rebellions. Destroying them root and stem, made sure no other vassals would dare turn against House Lannister. Tywin only had to send a bard to play the Rains of Castamere, to quel any notion of rebellion.

And with that policy of making friends look where the kingdom is now. Most houses in the north and quite a few elsewhere are just biding their time to strike, and when the surviving Targy returns, the job will be half done.

And good job forgetting the Others beyond the wall. One would say such a threat would be better documented everywhere.

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I wonder how long it will take for the boltons, freys, and lannistar's to turn on eachother. These alliances don't really tend to hold up once the enemies are dealt with, the prizes are dealt out, and greed + lust for power begin to seep into people.

Not really. The Boltons got the North, the Freys the middle and the Lannisters removed a threat to their power.

Of course, most of the north is really angry now, wants revenge, and have patience.

Meh. The North is in anarchy, and most of their forces have been slaughtered or are bottled up by Lannister and Tyrell forces in the Riverlands.

Boltons will recieve the North, The Frey's take the heat for the Red Wedding and the Lannisters walk away free, as anyone who knows is already dead. 

The North is in no position to retaliate, with a Wildling invasion, fighting the Iron Born and fighting between Bolton and Stark Loyalist Forces, and the Karstarks splitting off after Robb executes their Lord. On top of that Tywin has Sansa Stark so can lay claim to Winterfell after the dust settles and the Lannisters and Tyrells regroup as they have already won the fighting in the South.

The Red Wedding is a master stroke and effetively leaves any threats neutralised of unable to retaliate.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I wonder how long it will take for the boltons, freys, and lannistar's to turn on eachother. These alliances don't really tend to hold up once the enemies are dealt with, the prizes are dealt out, and greed + lust for power begin to seep into people.

Not really. The Boltons got the North, the Freys the middle and the Lannisters removed a threat to their power.

Of course, most of the north is really angry now, wants revenge, and have patience.

True, but things are still pretty turbulant, not even just with the local lords, but the power balance of westeros is starting to shift, and fast.

And envy over what one lord got, or what another lord feels they didn't get, can be quite a powerful thing. I'm just saying I can easily see them turning on eachother, given the oppurtunity to get away with it.

[Addai]

billy the squid wrote...

The North is in no position to retaliate, with a Wildling invasion, fighting the Iron Born and fighting between Bolton and Stark Loyalist Forces, and the Karstarks splitting off after Robb executes their Lord. On top of that Tywin has Sansa Stark so can lay claim to Winterfell after the dust settles and the Lannisters and Tyrells regroup as they have already won the fighting in the South.

The Red Wedding is a master stroke and effetively leaves any threats neutralised of unable to retaliate.

And is a Lannister offspring ever going to hold the North?  Never.

[Nerevar-as]

Seraph Cross wrote...

The only reason Tywin keeps the mountain is because lots O people fear him.The guy is freaking huge and a great enforcer. It was the mountain who killed baby and Elia. Not Tywin. I don't see why he should be blamed for that.

At the end of the day Tywin is just pragmatic. He's no sadist. He does treat Tyrion like **** though and he uses his children as pawns

Pragmatism taken too far usually ends badly for everybody involved. If there comes a time for the Lannister where they are in a weak position, they have nobody to turn to. You don´t help somebody you fear if the odds are they fall. That´s why loyalty is better. Even Rickon could raise the North under the wolf banner, just for being Eddard´s son.

[billy the squid]

Addai67 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

The Reynes were exterminated as an example that a Lannister always pays his debts, House Tarbeck had rebelled once already, holding hostage Lannisters. They then did it again with House Reyne. To show mercy would be weak and invite other rebellions. Destroying them root and stem, made sure no other vassals would dare turn against House Lannister. Tywin only had to send a bard to play the Rains of Castamere, to quel any notion of rebellion. Or do you think when their children grew up they would forget what House Lannister did to their parents?

Now everyone remembers, and rather than treat with the Lannisters the Starks know they have to fight to the death.  Half measures sometimes mean people meet you halfway.

The Starks were never going to treat from a position of strength. They had to be crippled first. The North is in no position to challenge Lannister and Tyrell forces. Riverrun has been pacified, as the Frey's hold Edmure, and the Blackfish is besiged in River run again.

While the Starks had enough force to strike back and retake the North they were still a Threat, along with the River Lords. Now they're not. 

[Nerevar-as]

billy the squid wrote...


The North is in no position to retaliate, with a Wildling invasion, fighting the Iron Born and fighting between Bolton and Stark Loyalist Forces, and the Karstarks splitting off after Robb executes their Lord. On top of that Tywin has Sansa Stark so can lay claim to Winterfell after the dust settles and the Lannisters and Tyrells regroup as they have already won the fighting in the South.

There are no Bolton loyalists... just the Karstarks. All the others are pro-Starks. Guess who they´ll join.

Next season you´ll see who´s the best at the Game of Thrones. Under Tywin´s nose. Hell, even under Tyrion´s.

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

He did what needed to be done. Removed the Targaryans, something Robert understood, but wouldn't do, and something Ned refused to understand. Heroes can't be seen to kill children.

Tywin himself says Elia Martell, didn't need to die, but he simply hadn't thought to give that command to spare her, he was more preoccupied with protecting Jamie from Aery's retaliation and making sure he was on the winning side of the War. He hadn't yet realised that Gregor was a brutal sadist, and commented that Aemory Lorche was a fool, the killing was done far too brutally.

It's a war, he brings the Riverlands to it's knees. Tywin has never done things by half measures, of course he used the Mountain. It's the oldest medieval tactic there is, the English used it in the 100 years war against France to cripple France's ability to fight.

The Reynes were exterminated as an example that a Lannister always pays his debts, House Tarbeck had rebelled once already, holding hostage Lannisters. They then did it again with House Reyne. To show mercy would be weak and invite other rebellions. Destroying them root and stem, made sure no other vassals would dare turn against House Lannister. Tywin only had to send a bard to play the Rains of Castamere, to quel any notion of rebellion.

And with that policy of making friends look where the kingdom is now. Most houses in the north and quite a few elsewhere are just biding their time to strike, and when the surviving Targy returns, the job will be half done.

And good job forgetting the Others beyond the wall. One would say such a threat would be better documented everywhere.

See my previous post about the utter anarchy in the North. 

As usual the Targaryans have to contend with all the other houses, it depends on what state Daynares leves the East however. 

What does crippling the Starks as a political threat have anything to do with the Others?

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


The North is in no position to retaliate, with a Wildling invasion, fighting the Iron Born and fighting between Bolton and Stark Loyalist Forces, and the Karstarks splitting off after Robb executes their Lord. On top of that Tywin has Sansa Stark so can lay claim to Winterfell after the dust settles and the Lannisters and Tyrells regroup as they have already won the fighting in the South.

There are no Bolton loyalists... just the Karstarks. All the others are pro-Starks. Guess who they´ll join.

Next season you´ll see who´s the best at the Game of Thrones. Under Tywin´s nose. Hell, even under Tyrion´s.

Bolton has his forces Largely intact. Most Stark forces have been either killed, seperated or ambushed in the Riverlands. The Starks as a military power are broken. And they still have to contend with a full scale Wildling invasion and the Iron born under Euron running amock in the North.