11084 réponses à ce sujet

[RainyDayLover]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

At what exactly did you laugh?

Walder Frey is a funny guy

Modifié par RainyDayLover, 07 juin 2013 - 04:09 .

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

And none of them have any authority, power or vassals to fight in their name. The War of Five Kings, started a free for all with various factions making a grab for power. Procaliming themselves as the Starks of Winterfell only works if anyone bothers to listen, and no one is going to listen without an army to back them up at the moment. 

Again, you haven´t read ADWD, have you?

Please highlight how this is inaccurate.

[Nerevar-as]

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

And none of them have any authority, power or vassals to fight in their name. The War of Five Kings, started a free for all with various factions making a grab for power. Procaliming themselves as the Starks of Winterfell only works if anyone bothers to listen, and no one is going to listen without an army to back them up at the moment. 

Again, you haven´t read ADWD, have you?

Please highlight how this is inaccurate.

That would be quite spoilery, but both AFFC and ADWD show the Stark name still has a lot of pull, both for trying to use it as a banner (3 different sides try it), or out of simple loyalty.

Meanwhile Tywin is a walking Darwin award waiting to happen.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 07 juin 2013 - 04:35 .

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

And none of them have any authority, power or vassals to fight in their name. The War of Five Kings, started a free for all with various factions making a grab for power. Procaliming themselves as the Starks of Winterfell only works if anyone bothers to listen, and no one is going to listen without an army to back them up at the moment. 

Again, you haven´t read ADWD, have you?

Please highlight how this is inaccurate.

That would be quite spoilery, but both AFFC and ADWD show the Stark name still has a lot of pull, both for trying to use it as a banner (3 different sides try it), or out of simple loyalty.

Meanwhile Tywin is a walking Darwin award waiting to happen.

And each of those sides, Stannis. Tywin's plan to Mary Sansa to Tyrion and Baelish himself all have their own power base and force to back that up. A single Stark child trying to rally support amounts to nothing when every other faction has thousands of men and has made their own power play. As of now the Starks have become pawns in the Game of Thrones.

Tywin by the end of the War of Five Kings had effectively eliminated or neutralised every threat on Westeros. His tactics worked perfectly while his reputation kept his vassals in line. They either bent the knee to House Lannister or switched sides when they saw the way the war had turned.

[billy the squid]

Addai67 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Why would they? The Lannisters are quite content to let the Boltons, Starks (what's left of them) Karstarks and Iron born along with the Wildlings fight it out in the North. 

The Starks never forget would be a more apt discription, and there aren't many left. The Boltons were once kings of the North until they were overthrown by the Starks I believe. This is the point. It's not just the Lannisters the Starks have to contend with, it's every other faction which is now vying for control of the North. And they're are all Northern factions. 

I'm not talking about the Starks regaining their control, but about the Lannisters not being able to keep it.  And you're wrong that the Lannisters don't want that.  If they didn't, Tywin would never have forced Tyrion to marry Sansa.  He wants five kingdoms, not just the south, and he'll never hold it.  As has already been pointed out, the Starks have ruled in the North since anyone can remember, and have done it well for the most part, but when you take out the heir apparent, that leaves everyone wanting to try for top dog.

The Lannister's want control, but Lord Tywin isn't stupid. He's not going to invade the North when he's managed to secure the South. Nor has he ignored the ensuing anarchy once the Starks were removed as the dominant power in the North, and the situation there is a free for all between the various factions.

The marriage proves that Tywin has already anticipated that Sansa will produce a Stark heir and create a legitimate claim to the North. Why would he invade, when he can achive it via politics and marriage. It provides a legitimacy that the other factions don't have (Starks excluded, although Brandon and Rickon are dead for all Tywin knows) 

In the meantime the other competitors for the North exhaust themselves fighting it out and trying to control the North, while Tywin rebuilds in the south and holds the key to the North in Sansa, at least for now, which he can use to push for her son to take contol of the North, backed by Lannister and Tyrell forces. 

[Nerevar-as]

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

And none of them have any authority, power or vassals to fight in their name. The War of Five Kings, started a free for all with various factions making a grab for power. Procaliming themselves as the Starks of Winterfell only works if anyone bothers to listen, and no one is going to listen without an army to back them up at the moment. 

Again, you haven´t read ADWD, have you?

Please highlight how this is inaccurate.

That would be quite spoilery, but both AFFC and ADWD show the Stark name still has a lot of pull, both for trying to use it as a banner (3 different sides try it), or out of simple loyalty.

Meanwhile Tywin is a walking Darwin award waiting to happen.

And each of those sides, Stannis. Tywin's plan to Mary Sansa to Tyrion and Baelish himself all have their own power base and force to back that up. A single Stark child trying to rally support amounts to nothing when every other faction has thousands of men and has made their own power play. As of now the Starks have become pawns in the Game of Thrones.

Tywin by the end of the War of Five Kings had effectively eliminated or neutralised every threat on Westeros. His tactics worked perfectly while his reputation kept his vassals in line. They either bent the knee to House Lannister or switched sides when they saw the way the war had turned.

The side that gets a Stark gets practically all the North under them, if they are pawns, they are the ones just one move away from the other end of the board.

And Varys is laughing at Tywin´s successes. Again, Lannisters command through fear, convince the others they can fall and they´ll abandon them to their own luck at best. All he´s managed is leave Westeros ripe for the Targaryen.

Loyalty >>> Fear.

[Nerevar-as]

billy the squid wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Why would they? The Lannisters are quite content to let the Boltons, Starks (what's left of them) Karstarks and Iron born along with the Wildlings fight it out in the North. 

The Starks never forget would be a more apt discription, and there aren't many left. The Boltons were once kings of the North until they were overthrown by the Starks I believe. This is the point. It's not just the Lannisters the Starks have to contend with, it's every other faction which is now vying for control of the North. And they're are all Northern factions. 

I'm not talking about the Starks regaining their control, but about the Lannisters not being able to keep it.  And you're wrong that the Lannisters don't want that.  If they didn't, Tywin would never have forced Tyrion to marry Sansa.  He wants five kingdoms, not just the south, and he'll never hold it.  As has already been pointed out, the Starks have ruled in the North since anyone can remember, and have done it well for the most part, but when you take out the heir apparent, that leaves everyone wanting to try for top dog.

The Lannister's want control, but Lord Tywin isn't stupid. He's not going to invade the North when he's managed to secure the South. Nor has he ignored the ensuing anarchy once the Starks were removed as the dominant power in the North, and the situation there is a free for all between the various factions.

The marriage proves that Tywin has already anticipated that Sansa will produce a Stark heir and create a legitimate claim to the North. Why would he invade, when he can achive it via politics and marriage. It provides a legitimacy that the other factions don't have (Starks excluded, although Brandon and Rickon are dead for all Tywin knows) 

In the meantime the other competitors for the North exhaust themselves fighting it out and trying to control the North, while Tywin rebuilds in the south and holds the key to the North in Sansa, at least for now, which he can use to push for her son to take contol of the North, backed by Lannister and Tyrell forces. 

No it isn´t. It´s Bolton and Freys holding hostages and everybody else biding their time. The moment a Stark shows his head, Boltons are going to become their own banner and Freys, well, they´ve already started to deal with them.

Manderlay pies, yum.

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

And none of them have any authority, power or vassals to fight in their name. The War of Five Kings, started a free for all with various factions making a grab for power. Procaliming themselves as the Starks of Winterfell only works if anyone bothers to listen, and no one is going to listen without an army to back them up at the moment. 

Again, you haven´t read ADWD, have you?

Please highlight how this is inaccurate.

That would be quite spoilery, but both AFFC and ADWD show the Stark name still has a lot of pull, both for trying to use it as a banner (3 different sides try it), or out of simple loyalty.

Meanwhile Tywin is a walking Darwin award waiting to happen.

And each of those sides, Stannis. Tywin's plan to Mary Sansa to Tyrion and Baelish himself all have their own power base and force to back that up. A single Stark child trying to rally support amounts to nothing when every other faction has thousands of men and has made their own power play. As of now the Starks have become pawns in the Game of Thrones.

Tywin by the end of the War of Five Kings had effectively eliminated or neutralised every threat on Westeros. His tactics worked perfectly while his reputation kept his vassals in line. They either bent the knee to House Lannister or switched sides when they saw the way the war had turned.

The side that gets a Stark gets practically all the North under them, if they are pawns, they are the ones just one move away from the other end of the board.

And Varys is laughing at Tywin´s successes. Again, Lannisters command through fear, convince the others they can fall and they´ll abandon them to their own luck at best. All he´s managed is leave Westeros ripe for the Targaryen.

Loyalty >>> Fear.

At the moment Several Houses, or what's left of them are have sided with Stannis, You still Have the Boltons, Ironborn and Stannis aligned supporters competing for control. A Stark simply gives it legitemacy. The Parties involved are already fighting one another, that's not going to change because someone proclaims themselves a Stark.

They are pawns and have no effective power without the backing of Stannis, who seeks to rebuild. 

Wow, so utterly deluded. Tywin Lannister was killed, via Vary's manipulation becasue, he was too effective. He'd managed to unite the South and eliminate or neutralise the various factions in Westeros. It's the same reason that Kevan was removed by Varys. They were too dangerous and effective at consolidating control after the war.

Loyalty hasn't saved the Starks. Nor will it ever save a House Pramount, once they're seen as weak, they're a target for another house or their Vassals, just what happened when the Boltons and Freys turned on the Starks and Tullys.

Modifié par billy the squid, 07 juin 2013 - 05:17 .

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Why would they? The Lannisters are quite content to let the Boltons, Starks (what's left of them) Karstarks and Iron born along with the Wildlings fight it out in the North. 

The Starks never forget would be a more apt discription, and there aren't many left. The Boltons were once kings of the North until they were overthrown by the Starks I believe. This is the point. It's not just the Lannisters the Starks have to contend with, it's every other faction which is now vying for control of the North. And they're are all Northern factions. 

I'm not talking about the Starks regaining their control, but about the Lannisters not being able to keep it.  And you're wrong that the Lannisters don't want that.  If they didn't, Tywin would never have forced Tyrion to marry Sansa.  He wants five kingdoms, not just the south, and he'll never hold it.  As has already been pointed out, the Starks have ruled in the North since anyone can remember, and have done it well for the most part, but when you take out the heir apparent, that leaves everyone wanting to try for top dog.

The Lannister's want control, but Lord Tywin isn't stupid. He's not going to invade the North when he's managed to secure the South. Nor has he ignored the ensuing anarchy once the Starks were removed as the dominant power in the North, and the situation there is a free for all between the various factions.

The marriage proves that Tywin has already anticipated that Sansa will produce a Stark heir and create a legitimate claim to the North. Why would he invade, when he can achive it via politics and marriage. It provides a legitimacy that the other factions don't have (Starks excluded, although Brandon and Rickon are dead for all Tywin knows) 

In the meantime the other competitors for the North exhaust themselves fighting it out and trying to control the North, while Tywin rebuilds in the south and holds the key to the North in Sansa, at least for now, which he can use to push for her son to take contol of the North, backed by Lannister and Tyrell forces. 

No it isn´t. It´s Bolton and Freys holding hostages and everybody else biding their time. The moment a Stark shows his head, Boltons are going to become their own banner and Freys, well, they´ve already started to deal with them.

Manderlay pies, yum.

You have the Ironborn, the Boltons and Stannis aligned forces. The others are either too weak after fighting the Iron born or neutralised after the Red Wedding with the hostages taken. 

There is no unifying force in the North at the moment, a Stark popping his head up simply gives that faction a legitimate claim, which is moot, as The Boltons and Iron born don't care.

Loyalty to the starks isn't the what has moved the Houses to side with Stannis. It's the thousands of men at arms. They're not going to side with the Iron born and the Boltons betrayed and killed accompanying members of the house or hold them hostage. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

I wonder if we'll cover you know who heading up to you know where to fight you know what in this last episode.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 07 juin 2013 - 05:21 .

[Nerevar-as]

billy the s

Wow, so utterly deluded. Tywin Lannister was killed, via Vary's manipulation becasue, he was too effective. He'd managed to unite the South and eliminate or neutralise the various factions in Westeros. It's the same reason that Kevan was removed by Varys. They were too dangerous and effective at consolidating control after the war.

Tywin Lannister is dead for being an abusive, cruel son of a *****, both in the big and small scale. And treating the worst the person who was more dangerous out of spite. He got exactly what he deserved. So I don´t think it´s me the one deluded when his end is brought about by that ruthless personality you seem to admire so much. Always playing the thug just assures you´ll get in a situation where the other is over you and has no reason for mercy.

[Mr.House]

I love the Starks and their supporters. Always good for a laugh.

[Nerevar-as]

Mr.House wrote...

I love the Starks and their supporters. Always good for a laugh.

We´ll laugh last and best. While your time has already passed.

[Mr.House]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I love the Starks and their supporters. Always good for a laugh.

We´ll laugh last and best. While your time has already passed.

While it is true pawns do laugh last before the moment their master discards them.

[Nerevar-as]

Enjoy the pies.

[Milan92]

Mr.House wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I love the Starks and their supporters. Always good for a laugh.

We´ll laugh last and best. While your time has already passed.

While it is true pawns do laugh last before the moment their master discards them.

Are you guys for real? 

The Starks and Lannisters both have good and bad points. :happy:

Modifié par Milan92, 07 juin 2013 - 09:15 .

[Nerevar-as]

Milan92 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I love the Starks and their supporters. Always good for a laugh.

We´ll laugh last and best. While your time has already passed.

While it is true pawns do laugh last before the moment their master discards them.

Are you guys for real? 

The Starks and Lannisters both have good and bad points. :happy:

Even with fictional characters, I find it scary how people root for such people. It looks like badassery has become the measuring unit.  Next I´ll see someone rooting for Johan (Monster, makes Tyrion and Littlefinger together look like a Sansa).

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the s

Wow, so utterly deluded. Tywin Lannister was killed, via Vary's manipulation becasue, he was too effective. He'd managed to unite the South and eliminate or neutralise the various factions in Westeros. It's the same reason that Kevan was removed by Varys. They were too dangerous and effective at consolidating control after the war.

Tywin Lannister is dead for being an abusive, cruel son of a *****, both in the big and small scale. And treating the worst the person who was more dangerous out of spite. He got exactly what he deserved. So I don´t think it´s me the one deluded when his end is brought about by that ruthless personality you seem to admire so much. Always playing the thug just assures you´ll get in a situation where the other is over you and has no reason for mercy.

Yep, utterly deluded.

[Nerevar-as]

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the s

Wow, so utterly deluded. Tywin Lannister was killed, via Vary's manipulation becasue, he was too effective. He'd managed to unite the South and eliminate or neutralise the various factions in Westeros. It's the same reason that Kevan was removed by Varys. They were too dangerous and effective at consolidating control after the war.

Tywin Lannister is dead for being an abusive, cruel son of a *****, both in the big and small scale. And treating the worst the person who was more dangerous out of spite. He got exactly what he deserved. So I don´t think it´s me the one deluded when his end is brought about by that ruthless personality you seem to admire so much. Always playing the thug just assures you´ll get in a situation where the other is over you and has no reason for mercy.

Yep, utterly deluded.

Really? Varys wasn´t the one who had his son´s wife gang-raped, thrown away, and told him she was a wh***. Or then slept with the other who** (which looks so OOC for him that I´d say he only took her to his bed because she was Tyrion´s).

I don´t see Emhyr var Emreis doing any of that.

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the s

Wow, so utterly deluded. Tywin Lannister was killed, via Vary's manipulation becasue, he was too effective. He'd managed to unite the South and eliminate or neutralise the various factions in Westeros. It's the same reason that Kevan was removed by Varys. They were too dangerous and effective at consolidating control after the war.

Tywin Lannister is dead for being an abusive, cruel son of a *****, both in the big and small scale. And treating the worst the person who was more dangerous out of spite. He got exactly what he deserved. So I don´t think it´s me the one deluded when his end is brought about by that ruthless personality you seem to admire so much. Always playing the thug just assures you´ll get in a situation where the other is over you and has no reason for mercy.

Yep, utterly deluded.

Really? Varys wasn´t the one who had his son´s wife gang-raped, thrown away, and told him she was a wh***. Or then slept with the other who** (which looks so OOC for him that I´d say he only took her to his bed because she was Tyrion´s).

I don´t see Emhyr var Emreis doing any of that.

I'm trying not to be rude, but really are you making such a stupid point, that Tywin was killed because he was a bad man. Really? If you are, I have to question your intelligence or believe that your being deliberately obtuse.

Was Tywin a bad father, well duh. No one is arguing that. 

Did Varys manipulate Tyrion into killing Tywin because he was a bad man? If you say yes, you're simply being silly. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 07 juin 2013 - 09:49 .

[Nerevar-as]

Varys could point Tyrion to kill him because of his actions against his son, so yes. And the way Tyrion was treated didn´t differ from the way he aproached treating with anybody else, even Cersei and Jaime were just pawns for him.

And as interesting as this is, for me it´s the time to agree to disagree.

[billy the squid]

Varys used the hate between them to his advantage to remove Tywin Lannister who was the greatest threat to Varys' plans. That wasn't Varys' motivation, it's a huge difference. Or was Kevan a bad man too, who had to be removed, as Varys is on a mission to remove all the bad men from Westeros.

And do you think Varys wouldn't try to find another way to remove Tywin Lannister? Varys is intelligent and a master manipulator, for instance Kevan was intelligent and more than capable of continuing Tywin's work, but was clearly not as harsh as Tywin. It didn't save him did it?

Modifié par billy the squid, 07 juin 2013 - 10:09 .

[The Hierophant]

*spoiler* was outplayed by Varys who's arguably, and currently the greatest spy master in Westeros. Mind you Vary's only effective method of attack against *spoiler* during the past 20 years was the latter's relationship with *spoiler*. Varys even had a hand in *spoiler's* predicament at the time, and subtlely goaded *spoiler* into killing *spoiler*. It's amazing that it took Varys nearly 20+ years to get rid of *spoiler* since the former entered Aerys II's court.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 juin 2013 - 10:12 .

[billy the squid]

The Hierophant wrote...

*spoiler* was outplayed by Varys who's arguably, and currently the greatest spy master in Westeros. Mind you Vary's only effective method of attack against *spoiler* during the past 20 years was the latter's relationship with *spoiler*. Varys even had a hand in *spoiler's* predicament at the time, and subtlely goaded *spoiler* into killing *spoiler* It's amazing that it took Varys nearly 20+ years to get rid of *spoiler* since the former entered Aerys II's court.

Which is the pertinent point. Someone who is arbitrarily cruel doesn't survive and ascend to a position of power for long in Westeros. As Joffrey and Aerys II proved. 

Tywin is dangerous because he's as intelligent and almost as manipulative as Varys, has the political and social standing, financial power and military might to back it up. It's a nasty combination when one looks at how ruthless he can be. Saying he's cruel so he got what was coming to him, ignores the fact it took nearly 30 years, before he died.

Modifié par billy the squid, 07 juin 2013 - 10:16 .

[The Hierophant]

billy the squid wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

*spoiler* was outplayed by Varys who's arguably, and currently the greatest spy master in Westeros. Mind you Vary's only effective method of attack against *spoiler* during the past 20 years was the latter's relationship with *spoiler*. Varys even had a hand in *spoiler's* predicament at the time, and subtlely goaded *spoiler* into killing *spoiler* It's amazing that it took Varys nearly 20+ years to get rid of *spoiler* since the former entered Aerys II's court.

Which is the pertinent point. Someone who is arbitrarily cruel doesn't survive and ascend to a position of power for long in Westeros. As Joffrey and Aerys II proved. 

Tywin is dangerous because he's as intelligent and almost as manipulative as Varys, has the political and social standing, financial power and military might to back it up. It's a nasty combination when one looks at how ruthless he can be. Saying he's cruel so he got what was coming to him, ignores the fact it took nearly 30 years, before he died.

Exactly. If Tywin's fall was soley due to his supposed cruelty he would have died by dagger, or poison a long time ago as drawing the ire of everyone around you is bad for one's health.

So far i have my doubts Petyr Baelish is capable of achieving, and surviving as long as Tywin did under Varys' gaze.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 juin 2013 - 10:40 .