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[LPPrince]

Dat armor

[slimgrin]

After red wedding, I've lost hope anyone in the story has a soul. Maybe Brienne does. But it's all too grim and pessimistic for me when any character would sell their own mother for pennies. Also, Vikings does fight choreography way better.

Modifié par slimgrin, 02 septembre 2013 - 10:33 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Yeah you can't get too attached to anybody, but that's not the point. That was the greatest wedding ever.

[LPPrince]

Reek.

It rhymes with leek.

[mybudgee]

Gee thanks for all the answers

[LPPrince]

"Dat armor" was your answer.

Look at the armor Loras was wearing after he rode in with Tywin.

[GodWood]

slimgrin wrote...
After red wedding, I've lost hope anyone in the story has a soul. Maybe Brienne does.
 
But it's all too grim and pessimistic for me when any character would sell their own mother for pennies.

It's probably worth pointing out that contrary to popular belief the actions of the Freys weren't as petty or evil as the common fan would make them out to be.

Robb promised to marry one of the Frey's daughters in exchange for some Frey soldiers, instead he gets the Frey's soldiers killed and then refuses to marry Walder's daughter.  After that he then comes crawling back demanding more from him. At this moment the Walder could:

a) Join the losing side and have a high chance of being decimated by the superior Lannister armies resulting in the loss of land, wealth and heads.

b ) Deny Robb access and have to go to war with the army on his doorstep resulting in an attack on the Twins that would bring death to his family and people.

or

c) Get rid of the army on his doorstep in one fell swoop and gain prestige with the more powerful Lannisters.

It's pretty clear what the logical course of action is. Yes it was brutal, but it was in the best interests of not only Walder Frey himself but also his house and his people.

[LPPrince]

Yeah, Robb was young and going up against a bigger and more experienced threat in Tywin and his forces.

Robb may have been winning battles, but Tywin had an endgame in mind. Robb made a few critical mistakes that really weakened his position, and all the blame is pretty much on his head.

Its like chess. Robb moved a few pieces to where they shouldn't have been, and seeing the opportunity to strike, Tywin moved a winning set of pieces and hey,

checkmate.

[Fortack]

slimgrin wrote...

After red wedding, I've lost hope anyone in the story has a soul. Maybe Brienne does. But it's all too grim and pessimistic for me when any character would sell their own mother for pennies.

The fact that every character isn't either an invincible super hero or uber evil villain is one of the things I like best about this show. Go and watch the scene where Jaime and Brienne share a bath, and he explains why he killed the Mad King to the get the idea (and tell me what you'd have done in his place).

Brienne might look like an honorable wench, but she too will have to make a difficult choice later on. Just like Jaime she has to betray someone or something.

[TheBlackBaron]

GodWood wrote...

It's probably worth pointing out that contrary to popular belief the actions of the Freys weren't as petty or evil as the common fan would make them out to be.

It's pretty clear what the logical course of action is. Yes it was brutal, but it was in the best interests of not only Walder Frey himself but also his house and his people.

These things are not mutually exclusive. 

Was the Red Wedding the most logical thing for Frey to do, in order to get back into Twyin's good graces and prevent any further bloodshed on his family? Yes.

Was it incredibly evil, esepcially given the emphasis Westeros puts on sacred hospitality? Also yes. 

George introduced the story of the Rat King in the same book for a reason. 

[Fortack]

GodWood wrote...

It's pretty clear what the logical course of action is. Yes it was brutal, but it was in the best interests of not only Walder Frey himself but also his house and his people.

For the present, perhaps. In the long run, not so much.

The Freys aren't exactly the most popular of Houses among Westorosi nobility. Blackening their name with one of the worst things imaginable (sh*tting on the sacred laws of hospitality) is not going to help increase their influence & power (or trustworthiness obviously). Walder Frey has tried (obsessively) to marry his offspring into other powerful families with little success. I don't think the Red Wedding helped improve the odds for a long, long time.

The logical thing to do was to break the alliance when Robb broke the agreement and hide behind his walls. He would have honored his nickname which would have made sense when looking at his behavior in the past and without much risk. Walder desired bloody vengeance only. That's understandable, but still a stupid thing to do. Not something I would call a logical course of action.

[GodWood]

Fortack wrote...
For the present, perhaps. In the long run, not so much.

The Freys aren't exactly the most popular of Houses among Westorosi nobility. Blackening their name with one of the worst things imaginable (sh*tting on the sacred laws of hospitality) is not going to help increase their influence & power (or trustworthiness obviously). Walder Frey has tried (obsessively) to marry his offspring into other powerful families with little success. I don't think the Red Wedding helped improve the odds for a long, long time.

So long as they're partnered with one of the major power players (the Lannisters) they'd get what they want.

Of course the Lannisters did eventually begin to lose power and prestige thanks to Tyrion's selfishness and Cercei's political incompetence but Walder had no way of predicting what would happen the way it did.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Was it incredibly evil, esepcially given the emphasis Westeros puts on sacred hospitality? Also yes.

If I was to label something as 'evil' it'd sooner be Eddard's willingness  to throw the seven kingdoms into all out war because of his feels rather then Walder ending a war.

[slimgrin]

^ Wuss.

[TobiTobsen]

According to his wikipedia site the guy is 50kg heavier than Conan Stevens.

I bet, combined with the Mountains armor, he will look like a total beast.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So why didn't we have this guy playing the mountain before?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 05 septembre 2013 - 08:27 .

[Captain Obvious]

slimgrin wrote...

After red wedding, I've lost hope anyone in the story has a soul. Maybe Brienne does. But it's all too grim and pessimistic for me when any character would sell their own mother for pennies. Also, Vikings does fight choreography way better.

That's not really the case with the series at all. Many of the characters just have what lots of what people would describe as good qualities and bad qualities(although, that's really a matter of point-of-view). Jaime, Brienne, Jon Snow, and even Theon are capable of love but they run into moral dilemmas. There are many good people in Westeros. Just look at Davos, Sam, Barristan, Beric Dondarion, Thoros of Myr, Sandor Clegane, and Tyrion. These people aren't perfect, but they do what they do for justice, duty, honor, and compassion. Even Hot Pie's a pretty nice guy. But again, you got to remember that for the most part, a lot of the characters are pretty grey, such as Jaime, and one of the characters I just mentioned will do some actions that some may find disagreeable. Beric and Thoros selling Gendry(although that didn't happen in the books) to Melisandre could be seen as the wrong thing to do or it could be seen as the right thing to do because it was necessary. They're good people, but it's their actions that are subjectively moral.

Modifié par Cap. Obvious, 05 septembre 2013 - 12:12 .

[slimgrin]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

After red wedding, I've lost hope anyone in the story has a soul. Maybe Brienne does. But it's all too grim and pessimistic for me when any character would sell their own mother for pennies. Also, Vikings does fight choreography way better.

That's not really the case with the series at all. Many of the characters just have what lots of what people would describe as good qualities and bad qualities(although, that's really a matter of point-of-view). Jaime, Brienne, Jon Snow, and even Theon are capable of love but they run into moral dilemmas. There are many good people in Westeros. Just look at Davos, Sam, Barristan, Beric Dondarion, Thoros of Myr, Sandor Clegane, and Tyrion. These people aren't perfect, but they do what they do for justice, duty, honor, and compassion. Even Hot Pie's a pretty nice guy. But again, you got to remember that for the most part, a lot of the characters are pretty grey, such as Jaime, and one of the characters I just mentioned will do some actions that some may find disagreeable. Beric and Thoros selling Gendry(although that didn't happen in the books) to Melisandre could be seen as the wrong thing to do or it could be seen as the right thing to do because it was necessary. They're good people, but it's their actions that are subjectively moral.

I'd say they are too often capable of extremes. In short, too many people are ruthless bastards.

[Volus Warlord]

slimgrin wrote...

I'd say they are too often capable of extremes. In short, too many people are ruthless bastards.

Well, what fun is prudence and empathy?

[Volus Warlord]

GodWood wrote...
If I was to label something as 'evil' it'd sooner be Eddard's willingness  to throw the seven kingdoms into all out war because of his feels rather then Walder ending a war.

It's hard to blame any single party for the war. Saying it's Eddard's fault ignores most of the situation that caused it.

I mean, you got:

-Jaime and Cersei's incest (more particularly Cersei's infidelity with the king)
-Robert's infidelity in general
-Cersei arranging for the death of Jon Arryn
-Cersei arranging for the death of Robert
-Robert's idiocy with royal power
-Renly's oppurtunism
-Balon's oppurtunism
-Stannis's hardheadedness
-Tywin's power mongering
-Joffrey's jackassery (if he did not execute Ned, the war may have been much shorter or never happened. Also, he could have used Sansa to negotiate and did not.)

And then Ned figures out what is going on and sends out a few ravens, taking the "honorable" and rather by-the-book approach. He had no idea what kind of war would begin. He is definitely the evil one here.