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[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

either use a tag or let's move this to the ASoIaF book discussion,,, if there is one

 

We're fine, these are all theories. No spoilers.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

/snip

Spoiler

Cersei's a possibility, too.

I hope.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Spoiler

Cersei's a possibility, too.

I hope.

 

No, she's in it till ADOS. Either Tyrion or Jaime is going to be the valonqar. Or it's going to be more figurative (Cleganebowl, Jon Snow, etc).

 

Of course, the death I fear most of all:

 

 

I'm terrified this guy will kick the bucket before he finishes the series, especially since he's explicitly stated that, sans the show, he has it in his will and estate not to let the series be finished.

 

He's admitted his health isn't the greatest and that, while he doesn't plan on making any 6 year gaps between books again (let alone an 11 year gap between 'important' books), he's stated it's possible GOT's entire run might go by before he puts out a TWoW. 

[Steelcan]

No, she's in it till ADOS. Either Tyrion or Jaime is going to be the valonqar. Or it's going to be more figurative (Cleganebowl, Jon Snow, etc).

 

Of course, the death I fear most of all:

 

 

I'm terrified this guy will kick the bucket before he finishes the series, especially since he's explicitly stated that, sans the show, he has it in his will and estate not to let the series be finished.

 

He's admitted his health isn't the greatest and that, while he doesn't plan on making any 6 year gaps between books again (let alone an 11 year gap between 'important' books), he's stated it's possible GOT's entire run might go by before he puts out a TWoW. 

We will get the ending with the show, not necessarily the same way he'd have written it, but we will know what happens to the major characters

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

No, she's in it till ADOS. Either Tyrion or Jaime is going to be the valonqar. Or it's going to be more figurative (Cleganebowl, Jon Snow, etc).

 

Of course, the death I fear most of all:

 

 

I'm terrified this guy will kick the bucket before he finishes the series, especially since he's explicitly stated that, sans the show, he has it in his will and estate not to let the series be finished.

 

He's admitted his health isn't the greatest and that, while he doesn't plan on making any 6 year gaps between books again (let alone an 11 year gap between 'important' books), he's stated it's possible GOT's entire run might go by before he puts out a TWoW. 

Is that from a interview or something? Because I want to see her die very soon, and I don't want to wait 10-15 years for it. Valonqar means little brother, so I'm going with either Tyrion or Stannis. 

The showrunners of GoT have the ending to the series, and all the major plot details as well. But it won't be the same, for sure. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Is that from a interview or something? Because I want to see her die very soon, and I don't want to wait 10-15 years for it. Valonqar means little brother, so I'm going with either Tyrion or Stannis. 

The showrunners of GoT have the ending to the series, and all the major plot details as well. But it won't be the same, for sure. 

 

Jaime is also the 'little brother' being born after her.

 

Well, that's because they've come out and said that they won't wait for Martin to finish, and that they can't wait. He gave them the major plot points and endgame for the series, but I think he's leaving it up to them. It'll be a Gecko Ending for sure.

 

Granted, the show basically has caught up with the books. One more season, and it'll be right there with ADWD. We've already learned what the Others really are, something the books haven't gotten too yet.

[Steelcan]

Jaime is also the 'little brother' being born after her.

 

Well, that's because they've come out and said that they won't wait for Martin to finish, and that they can't wait. He gave them the major plot points and endgame for the series, but I think he's leaving it up to them. It'll be a Gecko Ending for sure.

 

Granted, the show basically has caught up with the books. One more season, and it'll be right there with ADWD. We've already learned what the Others really are, something the books haven't gotten too yet.

which makes me think that the show runners know a lot more about how the series goes than we think

[Ravensword]

No, she's in it till ADOS. Either Tyrion or Jaime is going to be the valonqar. Or it's going to be more figurative (Cleganebowl, Jon Snow, etc).

 

Of course, the death I fear most of all:

 

 

I'm terrified this guy will kick the bucket before he finishes the series, especially since he's explicitly stated that, sans the show, he has it in his will and estate not to let the series be finished.

 

He's admitted his health isn't the greatest and that, while he doesn't plan on making any 6 year gaps between books again (let alone an 11 year gap between 'important' books), he's stated it's possible GOT's entire run might go by before he puts out a TWoW. 

Jesus Christ. Much how he trolls his fans by killing off their favorite characters, he's taking it several steps further and saying, "Hey, I could totally keel over and die at any minute before I'm able to finish the series, and if I'm dead, I'm not gonna allow anyone to finish the series! Kthxbai!"

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

which makes me think that the show runners know a lot more about how the series goes than we think

They know everything. GRRM told them all of it, just in case. 

 

Jesus Christ. Much how he trolls his fans by killing off their favorite characters, he's taking it several steps further and saying, "Hey, I could totally keel over and die at any minute before I'm able to finish the series, and if I'm dead, I'm not gonna allow anyone to finish the series! Kthxbai!"

He doesn't 'troll' fans by killing off characters. He makes what happens realistic for the setting and genre there in. Did anyone really think the Starks would realistically be able to win the war? 

What's wrong with GRRM not wanting someone else to finish his work? It's his. And it's not even like that. Sure, the books won't be finished, but the two showrunners know everything so they'll be able to finish the story anyway. 

[Ravensword]

He doesn't 'troll' fans by killing off characters. He makes what happens realistic for the setting and genre there in. Did anyone really think the Starks would realistically be able to win the war? 

What's wrong with GRRM not wanting someone else to finish his work? It's his. And it's not even like that. Sure, the books won't be finished, but the two showrunners know everything so they'll be able to finish the story anyway.

I'm not really talking about the Starks. I'm talking about characters like Oberyn. That guy was the coolest cat in the whole series and he died gruesomely.

 

I'd venture a guess that Cersei--who's probably the most despised living character--won't be dying anytime soon, but regardless, I don't want her death, whenever it may be, to be spoiled.

[Steelcan]

 

He doesn't 'troll' fans by killing off characters. He makes what happens realistic for the setting and genre there in. Did anyone really think the Starks would realistically be able to win the war? 
 

The Starks would have won the war if not for their own bannerman's idiocy, and even then it took a conspiracy involving numerous lords on both sides of the conflict, an Ironborn invasion, and the failure of other fronts of the war

[Ravensword]

The Starks would have won the war if not for their own bannerman's idiocy, and even then it took a conspiracy involving numerous lords on both sides of the conflict, an Ironborn invasion, and the failure of other fronts of the war

Breaking his betrothal to Walder Frey's daughter, opting to marry a lowborn female and then bringing her to Walder Frey's castle, b/c there's obviously nothing dumb w/ bringing the random woman you married to the castle of the man to whom you agreed to marry one of his daughters. Yeah. That's all pretty kosher right there.

 

I almost get the feeling that the way Martin laid that out was envisioning a situation where a character follows his/her heart and chooses twu wuv in lieu of marrying someone he didn't love, and then having it be the wrong choice, perhaps even a fatal choice at that.

 

So, I now find the Red Wedding more fascinating than horrifying when I think of it in such a way.

[Steelcan]

Breaking his betrothal to Walder Frey's daughter, opting to marry a lowborn female and then bringing her to Walder Frey's castle, b/c there's obviously nothing dumb w/ bringing the random woman you married to the castle of the man to whom you agreed to marry one of his daughters. Yeah. That's all pretty kosher right there.

 

I almost get the feeling that the way Martin laid that out was envisioning a situation where a character follows his/her heart and chooses twu wuv in lieu of marrying someone he didn't love, and then having it be the wrong choice, perhaps even a fatal choice at that.

 

So, I now find the Red Wedding more fascinating than horrifying when I think of it in such a way.

Not talking about that, Edmure's folly in blocking Tywin is what ended the war, that led to Tywin saving King's Landing, letting the Lannisters focus on the Starks, not to mention the Karstark betrayal, Duskendale, etc...

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I'm not really talking about the Starks. I'm talking about characters like Oberyn. That guy was the coolest cat in the whole series and he died gruesomely.

 

I'd venture a guess that Cersei--who's probably the most despised living character--won't be dying anytime soon, but regardless, I don't want her death, whenever it may be, to be spoiled.

 

Yeah, Cersei isn't going to be going down anytime soon. I have a sinking feeling that Jaime is though. Which sucks, because with Kevan dead, he and Tyrion are basically the only good Lannisters (major ones anyway, not counting Aunt Gemma) left. I really hope he doesn't, but you never know. 

 

The Viper. You just knew he was going to do something stupid. But hey, we still get to see the Sand Snakes come into action. 

 

Btw, the most despised living characters? Cersei is a contender, but from what I've seen, she's still not nearly as reviled as the Freys and the Boltons. Everyone hates the Freys: they're the big hick family of the series, and the Boltons... Roose is alright, but Ramsay is rather disturbing. He actually makes you feel sorry for Theon.

 

Theon's the most pitied character I think. He's the butt monkey of the series who doesn't have a sense of belonging or respect anywhere. It's his own fault of course. He considered himself more Greyjoy than Stark, despite being practically raised by them.

 

This series has definitely shown that there are no good-guys in it. The show makes me practically hate Daenerys. She's just too much of an entitled, self-superior mary-sue with a delusional messiah complex, and unable to see anything she does as wrong, because 'she's the blood of the dragon'.

 

And the one death I will never forgive Martin for is Ygritte. I loved her in the books, but god damn, Rose Leslie single-handedly made me love redheads again. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

The Starks wouldn't have won the war if they pressed on past the Riverlands and the Vale. They had their independence, and really, there wasn't anything anyone could do to stop them. They had the advantage in the North, and they had the ability to fight for it and defend it. They were foolish to let their Vendetta against the Lannisters reign over their own abilities.

[Steelcan]

The Starks wouldn't have won the war if they pressed on past the Riverlands and the Vale. They had their independence, and really, there wasn't anything anyone could do to stop them. They had the advantage in the North, and they had the ability to fight for it and defend it. They were foolish to let their Vendetta against the Lannisters reign over their own abilities.

the problem is that basically they went "Ok Ned is dead, what now"

 

then the Greatjon decided "lets be independent and fight the Lannisters"

 

they could have declared independence and went back North and the Lannisters couldn't do anything about it, but the banners wanted blood, of course if Lysa had joined then the Valemen would have easily turned the tide further in Robb's favor

[Master Warder Z_]

The Starks wouldn't have won the war if they pressed on past the Riverlands and the Vale. They had their independence, and really, there wasn't anything anyone could do to stop them. They had the advantage in the North, and they had the ability to fight for it and defend it. They were foolish to let their Vendetta against the Lannisters reign over their own abilities.

 

Not to mention the Lannister host was raising another army of 40,000 at Lannisport and it was set to march just about WHEN Robb had the brilliant idea to screw over the Freys.

[Master Warder Z_]

the problem is that basically they went "Ok Ned is dead, what now"

 

then the Greatjon decided "lets be independent and fight the Lannisters"

 

they could have declared independence and went back North and the Lannisters couldn't do anything about it, but the banners wanted blood, of course if Lysa had joined then the Valemen would have easily turned the tide further in Robb's favor

 

It was never in their favor, they were outnumbered, their logistics sucked, they only could get supplies through the neck at one juncture and add in that the Vale is bordering right along the Reach and you have the very real possibility of a Lannister and Tyrell Host basically cutting down the Vale and Northmen in a bloody swath before the armies just met each other in the middle.

 

Robb did alright, but this was a war he never could have won, he only got as far as he did due to luck and experienced men at arms.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

It was never in their favor, they were outnumbered, their logistics sucked, they only could get supplies through the neck at one juncture and add in that the Vale is bordering right along the Reach and you have the very real possibility of a Lannister and Tyrell Host basically cutting down the Vale and Northmen in a bloody swath before the armies just met each other in the middle.

 

Robb did alright, but this was a war he never could have won, he only got as far as he did due to luck and experienced men at arms.

 

Well, to be fair, they did have the Bite, and they could have crossed around the Vale and into the Crownlands or Stormlands, though to be fair, that's a risky undertaking and one with a very uncertain payoff. They'd have to get past Dragonstone and Driftmark as well. It'd be the only remotely viable option, and as I said, not likely to succeed as long as the Vale is closed to them.

[Ravensword]

Not talking about that, Edmure's folly in blocking Tywin is what ended the war, that led to Tywin saving King's Landing, letting the Lannisters focus on the Starks, not to mention the Karstark betrayal, Duskendale, etc...

I know that it was more complex than the blood bath.

 

Yeah, Cersei isn't going to be going down anytime soon. I have a sinking feeling that Jaime is though. Which sucks, because with Kevan dead, he and Tyrion are basically the only good Lannisters (major ones anyway, not counting Aunt Gemma) left. I really hope he doesn't, but you never know. 

 

The Viper. You just knew he was going to do something stupid. But hey, we still get to see the Sand Snakes come into action. 

 

Btw, the most despised living characters? Cersei is a contender, but from what I've seen, she's still not nearly as reviled as the Freys and the Boltons. Everyone hates the Freys: they're the big hick family of the series, and the Boltons... Roose is alright, but Ramsay is rather disturbing. He actually makes you feel sorry for Theon.

 

Theon's the most pitied character I think. He's the butt monkey of the series who doesn't have a sense of belonging or respect anywhere. It's his own fault of course. He considered himself more Greyjoy than Stark, despite being practically raised by them.

 

This series has definitely shown that there are no good-guys in it. The show makes me practically hate Daenerys. She's just too much of an entitled, self-superior mary-sue with a delusional messiah complex, and unable to see anything she does as wrong, because 'she's the blood of the dragon'.

 

And the one death I will never forgive Martin for is Ygritte. I loved her in the books, but god damn, Rose Leslie single-handedly made me love redheads again. 

Of course she is. Well, hopefully she dies before Jaime, if he does die.

 

Well, it's obvious that he was a much more skillful combatant than The Mountain and most likely Oberyn could've dispatched him w/ ease if he wanted to. Instead, he opted to attempt to extract an a confession from him.

 

Yeah. I don't have any love for the Freys, but they don't get the same amount of screen time as Cersei. But, yeah, they suck. Now that you mention it, I do somehow see Walder pulling out a banjo from behind is throne and starts strumming the GoT theme, lol. After Ramsay chops of Theon's ****, forcible trains him to respond to Reek, and then ends up making him his personal manservant. Yep. How could you not pity a man that's just had that kind of abuse inflicted upon him?

 

I don't know about that. It seems like the people who are kind or courageous are the ones that you can consider as that "good" guys, and they are usually the ones that end up dead. It's one of the reasons that I liked Oberyn, especially the scene where he tells Tyrion that he'll be his champion.

 

Yep. I find Daeneys irritating as well. She just seems so out of place. I care more for her dragons then her. I felt bad at how they were being imprisoned. "She's the blood of the dragon," but she can't keep her dragons from running amok and killing people and livestock?

 

Ah, yes Ygritte. Even though she was smoking, I wasn't particularly sad to see her go, but I get the whole sentiment about revitalizing one's love for redheads, or as they call them in Australia, rangas. Bwahaha!

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Of course she is. Well, hopefully she dies before Jaime, if he does die.

 

Yeah. I don't have any love for the Freys, but they don't get the same amount of screen time as Cersei. But, yeah, they suck. Now that you mention it, I do somehow see Walder pulling out a banjo from behind is throne and starts strumming the GoT theme, lol. After Ramsay chops of Theon's ****, forcible trains him to respond to Reek, and then ends up making him his personal manservant. Yep. How could you not pity a man that's just had that kind of abuse inflicted upon him?

 

I don't know about that. It seems like the people who are kind or courageous are the ones that you can consider as that "good" guys, and they are usually the ones that end up dead. It's one of the reasons that I liked Oberyn, especially the scene where he tells Tyrion that he'll be his champion.

 

Yep. I find Daeneys irritating as well. She just seems so out of place. I care more for her dragons then her. I felt bad at how they were being imprisoned. "She's the blood of the dragon," but she can't keep her dragons from running amok and killing people and livestock?

 

Ah, yes Ygritte. Even though she was smoking, I wasn't particularly sad to see her go, but I get the whole sentiment about revitalizing one's love for redheads, or as they call them in Australia, rangas. Bwahaha!

 

Well, among the theorists, the current idea is that Tyrion isn't the valonqar, and that it's either Jaime (he was the second-born twin), or the Hound (being the younger brother of the Mountain). 

 

Eh, I don't know if you've read the books or not, so I'll just say that Lord Wyman Manderly of the North gets his revenge for the Starks against the Frey's in a particularly amazing way. Even Roose Bolton is disturbed by what he suspects Manderly did.

 

Theon/Reek might finally

Spoiler

face an end to his suffering as well under Stannis' custody. Stannis plans to have him executed to gain favor from the Northern lords who are outraged that Theon sacked Winterfell and murdered Bran and Rickon. You gotta love the people of the North. From the Mormonts to the Umbers to the Manderly's, they all have undying loyalty to the Starks.[/url]

 

Not all of them do. The problem is that a lot of the 'good' characters aren't very genre savvy and make the mistake of believing that others will act as honorable as they will. The Tyrell's are technically 'good' guys, as are the Martells, even though they both hate each other.

 

And see, I don't particularly hate Daenerys so much as I hate how she thinks she's entitled to rule a realm she's never been too, without acknowledging anything about the realm if it interferes with the fantasy of how she envisions it, and has said tremendous messiah complex and holier-than-thou view of the realm. However, going by the books, Martin has specifically written her in such a way that she has no real outside perspective on her, and her counsel is a bunch of corrupt or cowardly sycophants to tell her otherwise. The thing is, I don't think Daenerys is all that stable. We only ever see her side of things, whereas everybody else gets an outsiders perspective. That says to me that Daenerys isn't as high and mighty as she thinks she is. But enough about this: if you like, I can message you further about this. Suffice to say, among the book readers, Daenerys is a very polarizing character. I think she's compelling, but I certainly wouldn't follow her. She's... got her heart in a good place, but I don't think she's fit to rule at all. Hell, the only reason she's so good a conqueror is her dragons. Otherwise, she'd seriously be a female version of Viserys.

 

Yep, I remember when I lived in Australia (or are you just poking fun at my love of Aussies lol?) I only heard ranga a few time. Mostly it was just gingah. I say this because I'm a redhead myself, and my hair is rather... brilliant. Seeing as I'm a redhead, I'm not much for them myself. I prefer light blondes and dark brunettes. But ****, Rose Leslie has sex with the camera everytime she's on. Ygritte will be missed. Hell, I've been mourning her since I first read ASOS back in 2008. 

 

It seems however that Jon Snow has a thing for wildling girls.

Spoiler

It seems likely that he'll get involved with Val at some point... If he survives his stabbing.

.

 

[spoiler]I really hope he doesn't end up with Daenerys, but I don't see a problem, considering that he'd probably go for the Stark way over the Targaryen way. I picture an argument where Daenerys comes, recognizes him as a dragon and Targaryen (if it's proven that he is one) and holds him on the level of her brother, to which Jon gets offended and tells her that he's more a wolf than a dragon, and seeing Ghost duke it out with whichever dragon Jon gets.

 

It'll be like the scenes in Dragon Age where Loghain talks about Maric, and mentions that Alistair is just like him, only for Alistair to decry Maric and say that Duncan was the only one he cared about. I picture a Jon/Daenerys meeting going like that.

[Il Divo]

 

What's wrong with GRRM not wanting someone else to finish his work? It's his. And it's not even like that. Sure, the books won't be finished, but the two showrunners know everything so they'll be able to finish the story anyway. 

 

Well, considering he's not going to be able to continue the story from his next life, I can understand where fans are coming from.

 

Considering the long gap between Feast and Dance are largely his fault (and in my opinion are much weaker than the original three), people would not be wrong to point out that the story could feasibly be finished at this point if he was not so dead set on wandering aimlessly. 

 

Finishing the story via the TV show and finishing the story via the books are two very different things, as Martin himself has pointed out. Many times, they have different plot points (Ex: Robb Stark's wife) and very different styles in their approach. 

 

It's not so much a question of "right" and "wrong" as much as Martin himself largely being responsible for his current predicament, while wanting to maintain supreme authority over every last detail. If it's that big a deal, sign a disclaimer now saying that everything written after your death is not officially supported by you, stick it in the covers of the final two books, and let someone else take over so at least some segment of fans might obtain satisfaction, given that this series has been going on since the 90s. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

It's not so much a question of "right" and "wrong" as much as Martin himself largely being responsible for his current predicament, while wanting to maintain supreme authority over every last detail. If it's that big a deal, sign a disclaimer now saying that everything written after your death is not officially supported by you, stick it in the covers of the final two books, and let someone else take over so at least some segment of fans might obtain satisfaction, given that this series has been going on since the 90s. 

 

That would constitute fanfiction in his eyes, to which Martin is so vehemently opposed to. Granted, the guy has admitted that he does hold a rather austere view of the entire topic. 

 

He doesn't want people messing with his characters or his universe. Anything he's made will probably die along with him, since he's that much of a control case over his own universe. But you'd think he'd find someone, anyone that he trusts enough to finish the story with the major plot points and developments spelled out for them, and a list of who lives and dies (if anyone lives at all, though I think more people will live than are given credit for).

[Steelcan]

Not to mention the Lannister host was raising another army of 40,000 at Lannisport and it was set to march just about WHEN Robb had the brilliant idea to screw over the Freys.

. Another inexperienced, hastily scrambled army... Yeah that worked out well at Oxcross.

His failure to win the war was due more to his bannermens' mistakes, and Roose's treachery than any inherent weaknesses in his position. As he mentioned at the Twins all of his soldiers were mounted and they were riding all over the Westerlands. A massive Lannisters host, predominantly on foot, would have never been able to catch him.

[Master Warder Z_]

. Another inexperienced, hastily scrambled army... Yeah that worked out well at Oxcross.

His failure to win the war was due more to his bannermens' mistakes, and Roose's treachery than any inherent weaknesses in his position. As he mentioned at the Twins all of his soldiers were mounted and they were riding all over the Westerlands. A massive Lannisters host, predominantly on foot, would have never been able to catch him.

 

Was that the same host that was obliterated at Duskendale once they were forced to actually stop and fight the inexperienced, hastily scrambled army that you are saying is reminiscent of the army at Oxcross?

 

That's the probably with highly mobile forces, they can do lightning strikes quite well, but once they get cornered? They die and they die bloody.