Book Bronn also wasnt as close to Tyrion as tv show BronnBook Bronn doesn't have Jerome Flynn being hilarious. Any point towards book Bronn is therefore invalid.
HBO's Game of Thrones
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#7376
Posté 05 mars 2015 - 07:25
bunniebean
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#7377
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Posté 06 mars 2015 - 01:21
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Ok, I Told myself I had retired from fighting these battles like this, but Stannis haters just pull me right back in. Here goes nothing.
As for his greatest victory being nothing but beating up a bunch of nobodies, thats BS.
https://bryndenbfish...tary-commander/
From that article which is very well written
And
And now for a little something I wrote, back in my days on asoiaf, when I headed his fanclub
I am just going to copy paste it, without quotes, so here.
Stannis uses the men of Eastwatch to guide him and his thousand men to castle black. He launches a phenomenal three pronged assault on the wilding horde. He attacks the wildling soldiers and Mance tries to put up an effective defense, but it’s too little too late. Stannis has three columns of heavy horse assault Mances men. Stannis knows he can’t hope to take Mance in a pitched battle, Mance has too many men it’s simply not feasible at all. So he plays to his strengths, he knows that individually his men are better equipped and trained then your average wildling so he launches a daring and bold lightning attack designed to capture or kill the enemy commander or cause as much chaos and discord in the enemy ranks as possible getting them to break or accomplishing both tasks (which he does). Mance also had unconventional wepons in the form of giants and mammoths. No other commander in westeros has ever fought anything like this before, it was stannis’ first time against them as well. They manage to perform very well against the armored column sent against them. But the failure of one column did not affect the other two, now that is a damn good showing of Stannis’ leadership. This is imo, Stannis’ most impressive victory. Mance is himself no slouch at leading his men, he jumps right into action as soon as he hears the trumpets blaring, it’s too bad for him that Stannis planned this attack in such a way that it would have been extremely hard for Mance to win. The battle was not lost because of mances incompetence; it was lost because Stannis played to his strengths. He smashed an army far larger then his, and the wildlings had unconventional weapons in the form of giants and mammoths. We see how he split his heavy horse into 3 separate columns to surround, encircle, and crush mances hosts ability to fight back. His assault on the wildings completely demoralized them and crippled their ability to respond. He accomplished all of his objectives here, the complete and utter destruction of the wildlings ability to wage war, and the capture of the king beyond the wall.
1. The wildings had only a few thousand warriors!
That’s not true. Mances horde is placed at 100k people. Now the rate of fighting men in the wildling society is far greater then that of most other places. This is due to their lifestyle and their values. Its an extremely warlike society and only the strong survive for long. Even some of their women fight. These people will be big, strong, and fierce. We also have this quote by stannis on the wildling host.
Twenty times his numbers is not accurate if Stannis is counting all the wildings in the horde, if hes including the old men, children, and woman who don’t fight the wildings have 100 times his numbers(he has 1k men the wilding host is 100k strong) so Stannis is counting only the wilding warriors. The ones that actually fight.
2. The wildings are ill equipped and have no formal training at arms!
This is true; they don’t have training by a master at arms fight with lesser weapons and are not very disciplined. But they are fierce, savage and have a huge number of fighters compared to stannis. I also find it troubling that people use the fact that stannis’ men are better equipped than the wildings as a way to lessen this victory. That’s nonsense. A good commander uses his men’s strengths to his advantage, and he tries to downplay their weaknesses. That’s precisely what makes him a good commander. Furthermore, you won’t hear any historian ever say how a better equipped forces leader is not good because his men had better equipment. Think about it, no one bitches about the romans having better equipment and training then 90% of their enemies, same for alexander the great his men were far superior to what he was fighting, yet no one says “lol brah he sucks because his men were better than the enemy” Also, let’s put some of you guys saying this about the wildlings in some plate or mail, give you a steel weapon and put you up against 5 screaming savages intent on killing you and see how long it takes them to knock you down and kill the **** out of you.
Basically, you wont ever hear a person that is well versed in ancient warfare criticize a victory because one side had an equipment advantage.
Later on in the series, Jon says this about one of the wildlings
If your curious, here is the original http://asoiaf.wester...r/#entry5350883
Yeah, I was really into this lol, that 11,000+ post count was built in a little under 4 years.
First of all, neither Stannis nor melisandre has ever committed mass murder. Ever. The most people Stannis has ever had executed are 3 men. The 3 peasbury soldiers who had eaten their comrade during the march to winterfell. Any other commander would have executed those men, perhaps not by burning, but they would have been killed anyway, to maintain discipline.'next in line' L0L
It's not treason. Stannis was/is King of NOTHING. He has an army of losers, psycho shadow worshippers 9he mass murders those who don't worship the shadow of red) and his greatest victory is beating up a bunch of nobodies in an ambush. Even Stannis realzies his murder of his brother was morally repugnant yet you defend him. A blind faith follower. That's pathetic. But, hey, religious extremists who worship the Red Shadow are made like that.
As for his greatest victory being nothing but beating up a bunch of nobodies, thats BS.
https://bryndenbfish...tary-commander/
From that article which is very well written
Stannis performed what is known as a shaping operation . Army Field Manual 3.0 defines a shaping operation as:
An operation at any echelon that creates and preserves conditions for the success of the decisive operation. Shaping operations establish conditions for the decisive operation through effects on the enemy, population (including local leaders), and terrain.
The actions of Stannis and his fleet cleared the Sunset Sea of the Iron Fleet and allowed for Robert and Ned to ferry soldiers into Pyke for the main assault against the base of Greyjoy power. And while Robert took Pyke, Stannis led the successful invasion of Great Wyck.
And
Stannis performed what is known as a (partial) pincer movement . While one flank was engaged, the main force struck the rear of the camp, shooting fire arrows at the tents and blowing horns. This caused mass confusion among the Wildlings and sent the mammoths into a rage. In this, Stannis achieved a single envelopment while giving the Wildlings an avenue to flee. And while some may think that giving a lane to the Wildlings was foolishness. I disagree. Completely surrounded, the Wildlings are able to reform and Stannis is forced to fight man to man with an army 10 times his size. In that scenario, Stannis mostly likely loses the battle.
With much of the camp on fire and Wildling forces in complete dissaray, Stannis’s knights charged Mance’s lines. The Wildlings (save for the Giants) broke en-masse. Amidst the chaos, Stannis’s men charged against them again.
And now for a little something I wrote, back in my days on asoiaf, when I headed his fanclub
I am just going to copy paste it, without quotes, so here.
Stannis uses the men of Eastwatch to guide him and his thousand men to castle black. He launches a phenomenal three pronged assault on the wilding horde. He attacks the wildling soldiers and Mance tries to put up an effective defense, but it’s too little too late. Stannis has three columns of heavy horse assault Mances men. Stannis knows he can’t hope to take Mance in a pitched battle, Mance has too many men it’s simply not feasible at all. So he plays to his strengths, he knows that individually his men are better equipped and trained then your average wildling so he launches a daring and bold lightning attack designed to capture or kill the enemy commander or cause as much chaos and discord in the enemy ranks as possible getting them to break or accomplishing both tasks (which he does). Mance also had unconventional wepons in the form of giants and mammoths. No other commander in westeros has ever fought anything like this before, it was stannis’ first time against them as well. They manage to perform very well against the armored column sent against them. But the failure of one column did not affect the other two, now that is a damn good showing of Stannis’ leadership. This is imo, Stannis’ most impressive victory. Mance is himself no slouch at leading his men, he jumps right into action as soon as he hears the trumpets blaring, it’s too bad for him that Stannis planned this attack in such a way that it would have been extremely hard for Mance to win. The battle was not lost because of mances incompetence; it was lost because Stannis played to his strengths. He smashed an army far larger then his, and the wildlings had unconventional weapons in the form of giants and mammoths. We see how he split his heavy horse into 3 separate columns to surround, encircle, and crush mances hosts ability to fight back. His assault on the wildings completely demoralized them and crippled their ability to respond. He accomplished all of his objectives here, the complete and utter destruction of the wildlings ability to wage war, and the capture of the king beyond the wall.
1. The wildings had only a few thousand warriors!
That’s not true. Mances horde is placed at 100k people. Now the rate of fighting men in the wildling society is far greater then that of most other places. This is due to their lifestyle and their values. Its an extremely warlike society and only the strong survive for long. Even some of their women fight. These people will be big, strong, and fierce. We also have this quote by stannis on the wildling host.
Spoiler
Twenty times his numbers is not accurate if Stannis is counting all the wildings in the horde, if hes including the old men, children, and woman who don’t fight the wildings have 100 times his numbers(he has 1k men the wilding host is 100k strong) so Stannis is counting only the wilding warriors. The ones that actually fight.
2. The wildings are ill equipped and have no formal training at arms!
This is true; they don’t have training by a master at arms fight with lesser weapons and are not very disciplined. But they are fierce, savage and have a huge number of fighters compared to stannis. I also find it troubling that people use the fact that stannis’ men are better equipped than the wildings as a way to lessen this victory. That’s nonsense. A good commander uses his men’s strengths to his advantage, and he tries to downplay their weaknesses. That’s precisely what makes him a good commander. Furthermore, you won’t hear any historian ever say how a better equipped forces leader is not good because his men had better equipment. Think about it, no one bitches about the romans having better equipment and training then 90% of their enemies, same for alexander the great his men were far superior to what he was fighting, yet no one says “lol brah he sucks because his men were better than the enemy” Also, let’s put some of you guys saying this about the wildlings in some plate or mail, give you a steel weapon and put you up against 5 screaming savages intent on killing you and see how long it takes them to knock you down and kill the **** out of you.
Basically, you wont ever hear a person that is well versed in ancient warfare criticize a victory because one side had an equipment advantage.
Later on in the series, Jon says this about one of the wildlings
So clearly the wildlings are not as inept as people seem to think.“Leathers is savage,” Jon agreed mildly. “I can attest to that. I’ve tried him in the practice yard. He’s as dangerous with a stone axe as most knights are with castle-forged steel. I grant you, he is not as patient as I’d like, and some of the boys are terrified of him … but that’s not all for the bad. One day they’ll find themselves in a real fight, and a certain familiarity with terror will serve them well.”
If your curious, here is the original http://asoiaf.wester...r/#entry5350883
Yeah, I was really into this lol, that 11,000+ post count was built in a little under 4 years.
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#7378
Posté 06 mars 2015 - 01:29
A Crusty Knight Of Colour
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The (fanboy) King has returned. 
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#7379
Posté 08 mars 2015 - 10:46
Han Shot First
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Stannis is one of the best commanders in all of Westeros. He's fought several major battles, both on sea and on land, and has won most of them. And at the Wall and Storm's end, both of which were victories, he was massively outnumbered.
I have a feeling he's going to end up smashing the Bastard of Bolton's army as well.
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#7380
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:11
Bison
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Stannis is one of the best commanders in all of Westeros. He's fought several major battles, both on sea and on land, and has won most of them. And at the Wall and Storm's end, both of which were victories, he was massively outnumbered.
I have a feeling he's going to end up smashing the Bastard of Bolton's army as well.
With the Wildlings at the Wall though, he was mounted and caught them off guard, it's quite easy to slaughter when you're in a position that makes you harder to be hit and able to kill with sword, lance or your horse's hooves.
#7381
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Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:25
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First of all, surprise attacks are a viable strategy in warfare. So saying "oh he caught them off guard" to try and prove the victory was not impressive, is pretty much counter to the point your trying to prove.With the Wildlings at the Wall though, he was mounted and caught them off guard, it's quite easy to slaughter when you're in a position that makes you harder to be hit and able to kill with sword, lance or your horse's hooves.
Second, the enemy Stannis was facing had mounted forces of their own, Mance rayder leads a mounted counter-charge. And they had Unconventional weapons that act as a huge force multiplier(mammoths and giants) in an army that already greatly outnumbers their enemy.
And also, really it isn't easy to slaughter when mounted. Especially considering cavalry charges in real life failed numerous times against determined formations of infantry. IF your mounted and you charge a bloc of troops, you had better PRAY that they run. Otherwise your pretty much fucked.
Stannis has less then 5k men when he attacks the wall, and he breaks a force that includes AT LEAST 20,000 warriors.
#7382
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:27
I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY
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Stannis is one of the best commanders in all of Westeros. He's fought several major battles, both on sea and on land, and has won most of them. And at the Wall and Storm's end, both of which were victories, he was massively outnumbered.
I have a feeling he's going to end up smashing the Bastard of Bolton's army as well.
Sometimes I like to imagine what would have happened if Robb Stark allied with Stannis.
It would have been glorious.
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#7383
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Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:29
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Does anyone else think its hilarious that Robb Stark is hailed as this supreme tactical genius when both his greatest victories Whispering wood and oxcross are surprise attacks, but when Stannis surprises his enemy its just "oh who cares he caught them off guard big whoop."
Gotta love dat double standard doe.
Gotta love dat double standard doe.
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#7384
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:30
Bison
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Sometimes I like to imagine what would have happened if Robb Stark allied with Stannis.
It would have been glorious.
Reckon he wouldn't have needed to go to that Red Wedding, eh?
#7385
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:33
Bison
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Does anyone else think its hilarious that Robb Stark is hailed as this supreme tactical genius when both his greatest victories Whispering wood and oxcross are surprise attacks, but when Stannis surprises his enemy its just "oh who cares he caught them off guard big whoop."
Gotta love dat double standard doe.
To be fair he did win at the Fork(? I can't quite remember where it was, the one where Tyrion was in the Van)
And that took even the Lion off guard.
'A green boy' He said.
#7386
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Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:36
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To be fair he did win at the Fork(? I can't quite remember where it was, the one where Tyrion was in the Van)
And that took even the Lion off guard.
'A green boy' He said.
He didn't win at the green fork. He didn't even have command there. Roose bolton had command and he lost. Tywin completely broke the northern infantry and forced Roose to withdraw.
#7387
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:37
Bison
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He didn't win at the green fork. He didn't even have command there. Roose bolton had command and he lost. Tywin completely broke the northern infantry and forced Roose to withdraw.
Oh, my bad, it's been a long ass time since I've read that.
#7388
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:44
Volourn
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"First of all, neither Stannis nor melisandre has ever committed mass murder. Ever."
Yeah, they did. Don't defend these mass murderering religious nutbacks.
"Gotta love dat double standard doe."
\Whose double standard? Who is defending Rob Stark here? I'm certainly not. Don't make stuff up.
P.S. I don't hate Stannis. I just believe he is overrated by his fanboys and I do not approve of religious freaks who mass murder people and are delusional thinking they are 'owed a crown' when the whole reason he's 'next in line' is because his brother took the throne from the 'rightful' king (good too): Talk about double standards. That is Stannis fanboys in a nutshell. L0L
#7389
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Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:47
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No, they did not. You either have no idea what you are talking about or your a liar."First of all, neither Stannis nor melisandre has ever committed mass murder. Ever."
Yeah, they did. Don't defend these mass murderering religious nutbacks.
When did either of them mass murder? You cant just say yeah they did with no proof, thats how a 5 year old argues.
#7390
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:48
slimgrin
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Just get to the f*cking point, it's starting to feel like a soap opera, especially after watching Vikings. I don't need any more scheming and Ceirsi drinking her wine and ******'s asses, just move the f*cking plot forward for god's sake.
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#7391
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 01:09
Seraphim24
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Just get to the f*cking point, it's starting to feel like a soap opera, especially after watching Vikings. I don't need any more scheming and Ceirsi drinking her wine and ******'s asses, just move the f*cking plot forward for god's sake.
hahah that made me laugh...
#7392
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 01:30
MisterJB
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To borrow a quote
"Winter has been coming for sixteen ****** years!"
#7393
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 04:13
Steelcan
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"First of all, neither Stannis nor melisandre has ever committed mass murder. Ever."
Yeah, they did. Don't defend these mass murderering religious nutbacks.
"Gotta love dat double standard doe."
\Whose double standard? Who is defending Rob Stark here? I'm certainly not. Don't make stuff up.
P.S. I don't hate Stannis. I just believe he is overrated by his fanboys and I do not approve of religious freaks who mass murder people and are delusional thinking they are 'owed a crown' when the whole reason he's 'next in line' is because his brother took the throne from the 'rightful' king (good too): Talk about double standards. That is Stannis fanboys in a nutshell. L0L
Once Aerys died and his children fled, Robert became the rightful King through his Targaryen lineage and by conquest.
Once he died with no trueborn children Stannis has every right to assume the crown, it is by all rights his. Viserys is dead, and Dany isn't fit to lead a lemonade stand even if she weren't screwing around in a backwater.
Stannis makes it very clear that he isn't religious, he uses Melisandre's power but he doesn't believe in any Gods: "I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay."
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#7394
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 04:32
Dermain
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With the Wildlings at the Wall though, he was mounted and caught them off guard, it's quite easy to slaughter when you're in a position that makes you harder to be hit and able to kill with sword, lance or your horse's hooves.
So he's a bad commander because he took advantage of the situation? Isn't that something Sun Tzu puts forward in his Art of War book?
"First of all, neither Stannis nor melisandre has ever committed mass murder. Ever."
Yeah, they did. Don't defend these mass murderering religious nutbacks.
"Gotta love dat double standard doe."
\Whose double standard? Who is defending Rob Stark here? I'm certainly not. Don't make stuff up.
P.S. I don't hate Stannis. I just believe he is overrated by his fanboys and I do not approve of religious freaks who mass murder people and are delusional thinking they are 'owed a crown' when the whole reason he's 'next in line' is because his brother took the throne from the 'rightful' king (good too): Talk about double standards. That is Stannis fanboys in a nutshell. L0L
Wait, you're saying that Aerys the Mad was a good king? The man that tortured and killed people that looked at him funny?
If Stannis' (alleged) mass murder is unacceptable, how is Aerys any different? Talk about double standards... 
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#7395
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 04:56
Volourn
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Who says I support Aerys? I'm just saying those who support Stannis' push to the throne because he's 'next in line' are the ones being hypocrites. From all accounts, Aerys was a piece of crap and it was a good thing Robert and co took him out (Not that the Lannisters are really any better) but if you are going to go Stannis is 'next in line through blood' than taking Aerys out would break that - espicially since there are higher ups who should have gotten it first.
\
\Just stick with 'I like Stannis so I want him to win'. Nothing wrong with that and it is at least intellectually honest.
"Once Aerys died and his children fled, Robert became the rightful King through his Targaryen lineage and by conquest."
By conquest is the only thing that matters. That's all that REALLY matters.
#7396
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:51
Steelcan
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Aerys was the rightful king, he lost that right when he lost the war, sent his kids away, and died
From then on Robert was rightful king, now that he is dead and has no trueborn children, Stannis is the rightful king and that's the end of the discussion
#7397
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 12:59
Lucifer_AntiHero
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Unrelated to current discussion:
Apparently the actor who played Jaqen H’ghar in the show is also going to appear in the next season, despite having changed his face last time we saw him.
http://www.vanityfai...orite-returning
#7398
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 01:00
God
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He's also a very practical person who knows his very real limitations.
The mannis is about the only person alive who could rule the Seven Kingdoms successfully. Maybe Margaery and the Tyrells, but with Lady Olenna not having a whole lot of time left, they lose a lot of their capability when she passes.
Despite what some would say, the only 'bad' Lannisters are Cersei and Joffrey. Tywin is harsh, brutal man, but he made a hell of leader. Kevan did his best, and did an admirable job cleaning up Cersei's messes.
Of course, Varris wants them all to fail so that Aegon (or fAegon) can take the crown and become his father.
Daenerys... I don't even want to think of her in power. She's terrible. I'd sooner put an Other on the throne than her. \
If you think Stannis has entitlement issues, then just look at Daenerys.
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#7399
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 01:23
God
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Just get to the f*cking point, it's starting to feel like a soap opera, especially after watching Vikings. I don't need any more scheming and Ceirsi drinking her wine and ******'s asses, just move the f*cking plot forward for god's sake.
In all fairness, they're trying to go as slow as they can for Martin's sake. I think the goal is to have Winds of Winter released before the show ends. And I don't think they'll manage.
#7400
Posté 09 mars 2015 - 03:20
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In all fairness, they're trying to go as slow as they can for Martin's sake. I think the goal is to have Winds of Winter released before the show ends. And I don't think they'll manage.
The show is going to overtake the books. That's guaranteed at this point.
