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[upsettingshorts]

twincast wrote...

But having to endure the endless minutes of cheesy **** training, just to, when it finally gains a semblance of plot relevance two thirds through it, sum up LF's backstory, all of which we've heard before, some of it even more than once... What the ****? I didn't mind any of the other sex(ual) scenes before, but that was just cheap titillation and pure filler in a series that doesn't have even a second to spare on filler material.

It was foreshadowing.  It's the kind of narrative device that tends to be dismissed as pointless if it isn't recognized for what it is.

[Shirosaki17]

Nerevar-as wrote...

To be fair to Ned, if a certain idiot had not warned Cersei, he would have succeeded.

Do you mean Sansa? I've been reading a little background on the characters. I'm wondering why they didn't show that. They also showed Lancel giving wine to Robert before Ned met with Cersei. If what I'm reading is correct. Cersei only sent word to Lancel to poison the King after having met with Ned in the garden. However, with Tywin's army and the way it's filmed, it appears that they've been planning all the while to overthrow/kill Robert.

The problem with this series, I think, is too much is going on at once. If you've read the books you can probably enjoy it. But if you have no info on what's going on in the background, I think it can be a bit confusing, because they are skipping a lot of scenes and there is little character development.

[upsettingshorts]

I've never read the books, but I haven't had much issue following along except for remembering who a couple of people are - especially ones with brief, infrequent appearences and few lines. I still can't remember who that "honorable knight" who reads the King's will in the throne room is, for example.

But in terms of following the plot, I just have to fill in the blanks with logical assumptions. The events that went down at the end of the episode make sense without the details described above. I mean, what were we supposed to draw from that scene? Ned got played. Isn't that the gist?

Edit:  I mean, it's certainly no more difficult to follow than The Wire, which was downright punishing to viewers who missed single scenes.  All the Pieces Mattered, indeed.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 mai 2011 - 06:59 .

[Addai]

Heh. I have no idea what the Haka is, but it works for me.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

Heh. I have no idea what the Haka is, but it works for me.

Here ya go. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 mai 2011 - 07:02 .

[Shirosaki17]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I've never read the books, but I haven't had much issue following along except for remembering who a couple of people are - especially ones with brief, infrequent appearences and few lines. I still can't remember who that "honorable knight" who reads the King's will in the throne room is, for example.

But in terms of following the plot, I just have to fill in the blanks with logical assumptions. The events that went down at the end of the episode make sense without the details described above. I mean, what were we supposed to draw from that scene? Ned got played. Isn't that the gist?

Edit:  I mean, it's certainly no more difficult to follow than The Wire, which was downright punishing to viewers who missed single scenes.  All the Pieces Mattered, indeed.

If you don't get the sense they are skipping important scenes, not developing characters properly, and that there is more going on the background then I don't know what to tell you. But if you even read a summary of the books, you'd learn there is a lot more going on in the background and that we're missing a lot. Logical assumptions can't fill that in. At least not fill it in and be even close to how the story is actually told.

And because we're missing a lot we're not getting the full character development. Understanding the characters and their motivations. Some are just generic and don't tell the whole story or feel like they do.

Or we're getting scenes like the one with Littlefinger that slaps you in the face with what's about to happen instead of being more subtle and actually surprising people.

I'm just concerned that others could get this feeling, and be confused dropping ratings. I also don't think they have to depart from the story as much as they have, or they could put things in better order. They've changed quite a bit that didn't need to be changed. They should slow it down a bit.

Modifié par Shirosaki17, 30 mai 2011 - 07:45 .

[Addai]

I would think that the greater danger is they try to put everything in the books on the screen, which would be impossible and weighty. Dunno, I think they are doing a great job and keeping to the books pretty well. I'm enthralled by each episode, even knowing generally what's going to happen (it's been a while since I read the books so I'm sketchy on details).

[upsettingshorts]

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Logical assumptions can't fill that in. At least not fill it in and be even close to how the story is actually told.

They can fill it in, in terms of constructing a compelling narrative.  What they can't do is guess at the substance of the details revealed in the books.  

Shirosaki17 wrote...

And because we're missing a lot we're not getting the full character development. Understanding the characters and their motivations. Some are just generic and don't tell the whole story or feel like they do.

The only character I don't feel like I have any kind of handle on understanding at all is Ned's wife.  And I had to ask some friends if the Dothraki killed the Pretender because they never intended to go through with the arrangement (to hurry up and invade to get him his crown), or because he simply got on their nerves to the point that he had it coming (what they said was the truth).  I wasn't sure if it was one, the other, or both as of the previous episode.  Of course I'm not divining some in-the-books details through the amazing power of my imagination or anything, but I feel like there's enough to go on to follow along. 

If you believe that it is important for all viewers to know and understand every detail of the canon, even moreso than its own apparent author does seeing as he is intimately involved in the production, then I'm not sure what to tell you.  

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Or we're getting scenes like the one with Littlefinger that slaps you in the face with what's about to happen instead of being more subtle and actually surprising people.

Littlefinger?  A cunning, ruthless act of self-preservation/accumulation of influence?  I was shocked, truly.  Okay, actually I did see that coming.  Said to Xewaka in a chat, "LF isn't the type to follow through on an agreement based purely on principle.  He's going to pursue his ends until the end."  Am I following along?

Shirosaki17 wrote...

I'm just concerned that others could get this feeling, and be confused dropping ratings. I also don't think they have to depart from the story as much as they have, or they could put things in better order. They've changed quite a bit that didn't need to be changed. They should slow it down a bit.

It's possible, sure.  But slowing things down or changing the order could cause a drop in ratings too.  Unintended consequences and all that.  We really don't know.  In any case, worrying too much about the precision of a particular adaptation in my experience only causes headaches.  I try not to do it much myself, but I'm not always successful.  For example I can' take any adaptation of Sherlock Holmes seriously if it turns Watson into an idiot.  Just a thing.

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I've never read the books, but I haven't had much issue following along except for remembering who a couple of people are - especially ones with brief, infrequent appearences and few lines. I still can't remember who that "honorable knight" who reads the King's will in the throne room is, for example.

Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, also known as Barristan the Bold.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Edit:  I mean, it's certainly no more difficult to follow than The Wire, which was downright punishing to viewers who missed single scenes.  All the Pieces Mattered, indeed.

Yeah- its not unlike The Wire really in how it has a giant cast of characters, with lots of second tier characters, many of whom start out as small players but become more significant through the books.

But I do think the show is doing a pretty good job of staying faithful to the books and at the same time keeping it coherent for TV. There are a ton of ways this could have gone horribly wrong, but they're doing a good job thus far, even if they seem to be pretty blatant with some of the foreshadowing and telegraphing certain future developments, which come as bigger surprises in the books. Or thats likely just me, having read the book maybe.

[Shirosaki17]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
If you believe that it is important for all viewers to know and understand every detail of the canon, even moreso than its own apparent author does seeing as he is intimately involved in the production, then I'm not sure what to tell you.  

I never implied that they needed to tell every detail. I was talking about them missing important things in the background that develop the characters properly and tell the full story instead of part of it or rushing it. These are important things not minor details, like Sansa telling Cersei about Ned's plan to send them away. Or for instance showing Lancel feeding Robert wine all the time in a previous episode, instead of after the meeting in the garden. There are already things that are out of order.

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah- its not unlike The Wire really in how it has a giant cast of characters, with lots of second tier characters, many of whom start out as small players but become more significant through the books. 

But I do think the show is doing a pretty good job of staying faithful to the books and at the same time keeping it coherent for TV. There are a ton of ways this could have gone horribly wrong, but they're doing a good job thus far, even if they seem to be pretty blatant with some of the foreshadowing and telegraphing certain future developments, which come as bigger surprises in the books. Or thats likely just me, having read the book maybe.

I think they have done a good job so far with what they have. I just think they could have made the season 3-5 episodes longer, and didn't need to change a lot of the scenes they did.

Modifié par Shirosaki17, 30 mai 2011 - 08:20 .

[twincast]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

twincast wrote...

But having to endure the endless minutes of cheesy **** training, just to, when it finally gains a semblance of plot relevance two thirds through it, sum up LF's backstory, all of which we've heard before, some of it even more than once... What the ****? I didn't mind any of the other sex(ual) scenes before, but that was just cheap titillation and pure filler in a series that doesn't have even a second to spare on filler material.

It was foreshadowing.  It's the kind of narrative device that tends to be dismissed as pointless if it isn't recognized for what it is.

I'm fully aware of what it was. Doesn't make it any less pointless.

[upsettingshorts]

That particular detail seems more significant to Sansa's character - who even I, a book-ignorant viewer - can clearly understand is a misguided airhead already - than Cersei. Cersei being aggressive and pushing her temporary advantages seemed logical to me even without an explanation. Personally I just assumed that LF went to her.

That's what I mean about the kinds of things logical assumptions can do. That scene in the throne room makes perfect sense if LF did it. I obviously didn't intuit that Sansa was an informant, but I wasn't lost in any sense.

twincast wrote...

Doesn't make it any less pointless.

Yes it does.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 mai 2011 - 08:21 .

[Addai]

They could pick some of those things up easily, like having Cersei thank Sansa for her information etc. And they very neatly put the suspicion out there that the wine-bibbing was no accident.

I have no major complaints. I just want more direwolves.

[upsettingshorts]

Shirosaki17 wrote...

I just think they could have made the season 3-5 episodes longer, and didn't need to change a lot of the scenes they did.

Given that there is a precedent for HBO cancelling well-received dramas because they cost a ton of money - like Rome, a series that skips over a rather dramatic amount of narrative detail and covers so much time that Pullo and Vorenus should be old men by the end of the series - suggesting that Game of Thrones be made 30-50% more expensive so that it might remain more economically viable - cost is the other side of ratings - is probably not the best idea.

Just a bit of background.  Rome begins with the Battle of Alesia (52 BC) and ends with the death of Mark Antony (30 BC).  They covered this period in history - one of the most complicated and dynamic eras in all of antiquity - in twenty-two episodes.   And it still got discontinued because it was monumentally expensive to produce.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 mai 2011 - 08:28 .

[twincast]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That particular detail seems more significant to Sansa's character - who even I, a book-ignorant viewer - can clearly understand is a misguided airhead already - than Cersei. Cersei being aggressive and pushing her temporary advantages seemed logical to me even without an explanation. Personally I just assumed that LF went to her.

That's what I mean about the kinds of things logical assumptions can do. That scene in the throne room makes perfect sense if LF did it. I obviously didn't intuit that Sansa was an informant, but I wasn't lost in any sense.

twincast wrote...

Doesn't make it any less pointless.

Yes it does.

You honestly think four minutes of silly faux-lesbian softporn, a reiteration of everything we've been told of LF's backstory and a relevation of LF's endgame whole seasons before it became apparent in the books which only serves to lessen the surprise of his betrayal at the end of the very same episode are some grand example of sophisticated foreshadowing?
...mkay

[upsettingshorts]

Where did I say it was a grand example or sophisticated?

Just I don't really have much sympathy for the "I didn't like that scene so get rid of it" position in general.

[Obadiah]

So is this story's general theme that powerful people crave power and will achieve it by any means necessary?

[barenas]

Obadiah wrote...

So is this story's general theme that powerful people crave power and will achieve it by any means necessary?

With the impending threat of a force that hasn't been seen in a thousand years lurking in the background. Yes that is pretty much what is going on.

[Shirosaki17]

Obadiah wrote...

So is this story's general theme that powerful people crave power and will achieve it by any means necessary?

I think it has more to do with people who crave power will do anything to attain it and those are the ones that become powerful and tend to win(At least in the political world). Also honorable do gooders will fall by the wayside(natural selection). I haven't read all of the books or even the first one fully yet, but that's the sense I'm getting.

Modifié par Shirosaki17, 30 mai 2011 - 09:33 .

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Where did I say it was a grand example or sophisticated?

Just I don't really have much sympathy for the "I didn't like that scene so get rid of it" position in general.

I think its more to do with the "sexposition." I've no problem with sex in the show, but its a bit goofy when every scene requiring any exposition which in the books is often taken care of via the internal thinking of the characters ends up needing some sort of sex scene to go along with it. Its kind of ridiculous after a while.

I just think the foreshadowing in the show kind of blunts any surprises that the book had and makes some of the characters seem a bit more one note than they really are.

[upsettingshorts]

Brockololly wrote...

I just think the foreshadowing in the show kind of blunts any surprises that the book had and makes some of the characters seem a bit more one note than they really are.

I can see that, but it is television.  That's kinda of how you have to play it unless, well, it's The Wire.  

[Drake Sigar]

So I just finished watching episode 7 on Atlantic and think they kinda gave away the Littlefinger plot twist early with that speech in the ****house. Other than that, pretty good show! Drogo spins a good speech. They seem to be gradually getting better and better.

[Addai]

twincast wrote...
You honestly think four minutes of silly faux-lesbian softporn, a reiteration of everything we've been told of LF's backstory and a relevation of LF's endgame whole seasons before it became apparent in the books which only serves to lessen the surprise of his betrayal at the end of the very same episode are some grand example of sophisticated foreshadowing?
...mkay

Yeah I can't think of a good reason why we needed to see that scene, other than to show that LF really is a screwed up, obsessive guy.

I'm already dreading his creeper turn.

And that porn was not so soft.  

[Shirosaki17]

Addai67 wrote...

twincast wrote...
You honestly think four minutes of silly faux-lesbian softporn, a reiteration of everything we've been told of LF's backstory and a relevation of LF's endgame whole seasons before it became apparent in the books which only serves to lessen the surprise of his betrayal at the end of the very same episode are some grand example of sophisticated foreshadowing?
...mkay

Yeah I can't think of a good reason why we needed to see that scene, other than to show that LF really is a screwed up, obsessive guy.

I'm already dreading his creeper turn.

And that porn was not so soft.  

All those years surrounded by ****s and he's still saving himself for Catelyn. Such a romantic. 

[Obadiah]

Shirosaki17 wrote...
...
All those years surrounded by ****s and he's still saving himself for Catelyn. Such a romantic. 

I'm guessing that reunion is not going to go well.