11084 réponses à ce sujet

[God]

 

 

Can´t believe you wrote that. And if anything, Dany´s problem is she doesn´t dare to go all the way, but if she really wants to solve the problems with that society, she has to. Sometimes is not possible to keep one´s hands clean, she should decide if she wants to, and if her cause deserves it. But no, sleeping with the "bad boy" is more pressing.

 

And the TV show looks like will be going down fast now. I don´t think I´ve ever seen an adaptation that parted ways with the source material that did it for the best, and they do it despite of still having books for at least 2 seasons before catching up.

 

Yes, I am asking that question.

 

20 - 30 years ago, I could ask the same thing about Communism and get the same response. I don't think most people really understand what slavery is, what it does, and what the context of it is in ASoIaF/GoT.

 

Yes, Slaver's Bay has a lot of problems. 

 

But you are incorrect. The solution is not balls to the wall overnight revolution to tear down the very fabric of society. That's what Dany did, and she is learning really fast that all its doing is make everyone suffer.

 

Now, I agree, Slaver's Bay needs to move past slavery. But it needs to be something gradual and progressive. You can't take a maximalist progressive approach to this society. It will not (and does not) end well. 

 

And it's part of why I think Dany is a horrible, horrible leader. Not only does she cause so much crap and chaos, she fundamentally does not understand what she has done, and she completely fails to realize just how bad the situation is now.

 

But 'blood of the dragon!' blah blah blah 'a dragon is no slave!' blah blah blah 'fiyah and blood!'

[Johnnie Walker]

Could not have said it better myself, God.

 

I never understood why Dany gets so much love when you look at the whole situation in a non bias way. She's an idiot. They're so focused on her being a "badass" that they don't realize the damage she's causing.

It's also because she's a woman that's been through some hard times but she pulled through them. Well so have most people in the show/books that are still alive honestly.

[God]

Could not have said it better myself, God.

 

I never understood why Dany gets so much love when you look at the whole situation in a non bias way. She's an idiot. They're so focused on her being a "badass" that they don't realize the damage she's causing.

It's also because she's a woman that's been through some hard times but she pulled through them. Well so have most people in the show/books that are still alive honestly.

 

Sansa, Catelyn, Brienne, and Margaery are all women who pulled through their hard times better than Dany ever could. She's Cersei level's of stupid.

[Han Shot First]

I think Daenerys doesn't catch a lot of flak because most of the other rulers are not much of an improvement. The alternatives were King Joffrey the Mad or Robb Stark, the fool in the north. The first was an evil & clueless twit, and the second an even bigger bumbler than Daenerys. And no one took Balon Greyjoy seriously. The only thing he succeeds at is launching failed rebellions. The only monarch worthy of their title so far is Stannis, and he gets no shortage of fan love.

[Nerevar-as]

Eh, I'm in the military. Slavery isn't all that difficult to fathom. And I've seen it. I have actively fought against groups that practice it (though not for that reason).

 

But yes, is slavery really all that bad? There is a certain order to not having freedom. A freedom from freedom. Sure slavery in many ways stifles the individual, but it does show you your place in the world, and it allows you to fulfill a purpose. 

 

Not all, or even most slaveholders are shown to be violent abusers striking psychotically at their terrified subjects. 

 

WTF???????????

 

Nice to see we humans learn from our past. Human rights and so on. Good to see everybody values them.

[Nerevar-as]

I think Daenerys doesn't catch a lot of flak because most of the other rulers are not much of an improvement. The alternatives were King Joffrey the Mad or Robb Stark, the fool in the north. The first was an evil & clueless twit, and the second an even bigger bumbler than Daenerys. And no one took Balon Greyjoy seriously. The only thing he succeeds at is launching failed rebellions. The only monarch worthy of their title so far is Stannis, and he gets no shortage of fan love.

Stannis is way too lawful to be a good ruler, although he is the rightful one and possibly the less bad of the current candidates. But I´m guessing Daenerys will win just by showing up after all the others have killed each other and standing atop the ashes (or ice). Feel curious about the latter contendant, but the fact that he´s been nurtured to be a great king just screams of failure from a narrative point of view.

[HiroVoid]

I think Daenerys doesn't catch a lot of flak because most of the other rulers are not much of an improvement. The alternatives were King Joffrey the Mad or Robb Stark, the fool in the north. The first was an evil & clueless twit, and the second an even bigger bumbler than Daenerys. And no one took Balon Greyjoy seriously. The only thing he succeeds at is launching failed rebellions. The only monarch worthy of their title so far is Stannis, and he gets no shortage of fan love.

Show-wise, we haven't got a lot of focus on her actually being bad at ruling though I think we'll get more this season.  If I remember right, part of her story in this regards though is how good conquerors don't neccesarily make good rulers.  I also don't give her as much flak in this regard since apart from it being a flaw, she's also in a position that would be difficult for even the best rulers/politicians, let alone a person who's never been taught how to rule.  Start a thread about what Dany should do, and you'll get a lot of different answers: "Kill all nobility/slavers", "Leave slavery as it is", "Introduce reforms through a long period of time", etc.

[Cunning Villain]

Yes, I am asking that question.

 

20 - 30 years ago, I could ask the same thing about Communism and get the same response. I don't think most people really understand what slavery is, what it does, and what the context of it is in ASoIaF/GoT.

 

Yes, Slaver's Bay has a lot of problems. 

 

But you are incorrect. The solution is not balls to the wall overnight revolution to tear down the very fabric of society. That's what Dany did, and she is learning really fast that all its doing is make everyone suffer.

 

Now, I agree, Slaver's Bay needs to move past slavery. But it needs to be something gradual and progressive. You can't take a maximalist progressive approach to this society. It will not (and does not) end well. 

 

And it's part of why I think Dany is a horrible, horrible leader. Not only does she cause so much crap and chaos, she fundamentally does not understand what she has done, and she completely fails to realize just how bad the situation is now.

 

But 'blood of the dragon!' blah blah blah 'a dragon is no slave!' blah blah blah 'fiyah and blood!'

 

Here's the problem with what you're proposing: Daenerys doesn't have time for "gradual and progressive." It seems that Daenerys' ultimate goal of amassing forces, returning to Westeros and taking the Iron Throne has been lost on you, even though you could say the same about Daenerys as she the dithers about in Meereen. Her bleeding heart has put her in quite the predicament, while Stannis is making serious moves in Westeros.

[Seraphim24]

I like Daenaerys up until the Yunkai situation, until she had the unsullied army I believed she was in Essos for good reason, to get more powerful. Once she had that I felt like she should of just left.. she seemed equally ruthless and even-handed, but then she just seemed to spiral off into this generically good category.... almost like she had forgotten her original purpose (and where she could also rule to improve the kingdom/world etc, just from Westeros)

[God]

Here's the problem with what you're proposing: Daenerys doesn't have time for "gradual and progressive." It seems that Daenerys' ultimate goal of amassing forces, returning to Westeros and taking the Iron Throne has been lost on you, even though you could say the same about Daenerys as she the dithers about in Meereen. Her bleeding heart has put her in quite the predicament, while Stannis is making serious moves in Westeros.

 

By, 'she doesn't have time' do you mean she literally does not have time, or are you saying she has no patience?

 

If it's the former, she has nothing but time. If it's the latter, then you'd be correct.

 

If you're questioning how I think the ultimate goal has been lost on me, I'll say you're incorrect. I'm more of the observer that Dany is a stupid little girl who has an ego problem and is probably just as insane as her father and brother. She's not fit to rule the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Stannis is who I want to see on the throne. If not Stannis, then Jon Snow; he's learning the hard way how to lead, and unlike Dany, he's learning from his mistakes.

[God]

WTF???????????

 

Nice to see we humans learn from our past. Human rights and so on. Good to see everybody values them.

 

What's bad about it? Free labor, and it gives people a purpose. Some people are being all they can be flipping burgers and dumping trash.

 

Human rights aren't all they're purported to be. Not everybody can be a special or useful snow-flake on their own. I fully support using the junk-pile of humanity as manual labor and test-beds for science. 

[FraQ]

Nobody is really fit to lead the realm... That's one of the things that make the books great.

 

Stannis is way too rigid and unbending to make a good King, Jon is too concerned with doing what's honorable to make a good King, and Dany does show flashes of madness in both the show and the books. (I still think she's the best bet)

 

Tyrion might make a good king but we all know that's never gonna happen because he's a dwarf and the seven kingdoms would not suffer a dwarf as their king; much to their own detriment.

 

Who else is there?

 

Tommon might be crafted into a decent King but with Cersei at the helm it's very doubtful.

Spoiler

Especially after the demise of Kevan Lannister

[SwobyJ]

Chaos is good in this case, we are talking about cultures with economy based a lot on slavery. Time to bring them down, it´s clear they aren´t going to on their own.

 

On the contrary, I personally have hope that cultural influence from places like the Free Cities would crumble away slavery.

 

But that may take more decades, or more likely centuries.

 

Chaos doesn't solve anything though. It can only leave openings for solutions to possibly happen. Dany has to acknowledge the inevitability of slavery herself, but I do realize the good and bad things she brought.

Bad: Ha, now there's even less structure and more violence than before. Yay.

Good: Alright, now people know that slavery may come with consequences, and may not be always inevitable.

 

She's no savior and she needs to be taken off that perch, but she did bring some good things, and she did, in the short term, free a lot of slaves. But she has a lot of blood on her hands. Tons.

[SwobyJ]

What's bad about it? Free labor, and it gives people a purpose. Some people are being all they can be flipping burgers and dumping trash.

 

Human rights aren't all they're purported to be. Not everybody can be a special or useful snow-flake on their own. I fully support using the junk-pile of humanity as manual labor and test-beds for science. 

 

Andd now you go into crazy town.

[Some Geth]

Yeah, no.

 

I have seen some f**ked up things on this forum.

 

But supporting slavery makes you the king of worst posters here.

[WildOrchid]

I always knew God was a dick.

 

Indeed.     

[WildOrchid]

She's no savior and she needs to be taken off that perch, but she did bring some good things, and she did, in the short term, free a lot of slaves. But she has a lot of blood on her hands. Tons.

 

As everyone else. Nothing is paid by "flowers and peace". There has to be blood.

None of these so called rulers were any better than Dany.

[MisterJB]

Chaos is good in this case, we are talking about cultures with economy based a lot on slavery. Time to bring them down, it´s clear they aren´t going to on their own.

I hate Slaver's bay as much as anyone but it's hard to think anyone, except a few, deserve what happens to Astapor in the books.

In the end, it was the little people who never owned slaves, because they couldn't afford them but still, who suffered.

[WildOrchid]

Uhm, you do realize Dany crucified 163 people, right? 

 

That makes her one of the darkest characters in the books. She is on the same level morally as Tywin. 

 

Weren't those people who got crucified, the ones who did crucify little kids and slaves as well? That kid Dany saw in the road?

 

I also heard she gets darker in the books so that will be interesting to see on screen.

[HiroVoid]

Weren't those people who got crucified, the ones who did crucify little kids and slaves as well? That kid Dany saw in the road?

 

I also heard she gets darker in the books so that will be interesting to see on screen.

At least one of them was against it calling it a "Criminal act".  The problem is Dany generalized all the people as the same than realizing there were different types of people.