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[Addai]

grimkillah wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Likewise Cersei has all along seemed menacing to me, even for her "softening."  When she's commiserating with Catelyn over lost babies, she's standing over the child that she insisted had to be murdered.

Where in the show did Cersei insisted that Bran had to be murdered, in fact she insisted that the boy need not be murdered for what he saw, just discredited. I sense some unjustified hate on Cersei.

Trust me, Cersei hate is justified. 

What do you think she was doing when she insisted a couple of times "he saw us" while Jaime had Bran stuck in the window?

BTW ratings held steady this weekend.  Oh, and a nerd note- that was a real deer carcass Tywin Lannister was gutting.  EPIC.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 juin 2011 - 07:39 .

[HoonDing]

It's tragic how a genuinely noble character like Ned Stark is destroyed simply for following his principles. 

I previously compared to him to Duke Leto Atreides from Dune (or rather, I think I did) but that comparison was flawed, in hindsight; Duke Leto is undone by irresistible forces conspiring together and in full knowledge of what is going to occur when he moves into Dune with his House, while Ned Stark is undone by being a slave to his principles.

Ned Stark at many points had the chance to prevent the greater tragedies to come by once, just once, go against his principles... but he can't. On screen he really comes off as a rigid simpleton.

Modifié par virumor, 02 juin 2011 - 08:36 .

[Seagloom]

Cersei hate is sooo deserved. Still, I can see why someone might interpret her differently on GoT than the novels. Her novel counterpart is less subdued; for want of a better word.

Bronn's duel with Ser Vardis in episode six sums up the King's Landing mess perfectly. Lysa Arryn complains he fought dishonorably when Bronn points out where honor got his opponent. Now Ned is losing his own duel for the same reason. He should have asked himself what Stannis would do.

Modifié par Seagloom, 02 juin 2011 - 10:41 .

[TJPags]

Cersei deserves to be hated, with a passion. yes, she seems softer somewhat in the series - give her time, though, and you'll be devising new torments for her, each worst than the last.

And yes, Seagloom - that comparison is so perfect!!! Ned was a great character. Perhaps he makes more sense in the books than the series, but he is a great tragic figure.

[GodWood]

Everyone else checked out the upcoming Game of Thrones - Genesis videogame?

FedericoV wrote...
Am I the only one who thinks that the TV version of Cersei is very different than her book counterpart and that because of the changes they made the charachter and even the plot in KL is less interesting and threatening to some extent?

----------------------

But Cersei... the charachter is almost here but she completely lacks the evilness, the bitc*ness, the viciousness, the impulsiveness and even the stupidity of the books. I don't want to spoil anything but you know, Cersei is an evil and border line crazy scheming wh*re, not a protective and intelligent queen...

I don't know... she is too symphatetic.

I think your hatred of her is blinding your interpretation of her character just a tad.

For me she was both a selfish, narcissistic, b*tch but also [for the most part] an intelligent, manipulative queen and a protective mother.
It's only in the last book that she slips up and that was due to her increasing paranoia and alcoholism. (the latter showing her becoming the person she hated, Robert)

I will admit though her portrayal in the show just doesn't have the same 'oomph' as the Cercei in the books.
She doesn't look the part either.

Modifié par GodWood, 03 juin 2011 - 07:10 .

[grimkillah]

You people are crazy, Cersei is my favorite character right now, and no, she didn't ask Jaime to kill Bran, in fact in a later episode she told Jaime that pushing Bran out of the window wasn't a good idea, discrediting his story would be preferred, but Jaime reaffirmed his choice to kill Bran or anyone that threatens her. For me Cersei is the queen, and if she need to kill, scam, manipulate the people around her to maintain power and protect her family, then so be it, if I am in her position and situation, I doubt I would act any different. She is pragmatist, but definitely not evil. Daenerys on the other hand is pure evil.

[FedericoV]

grimkillah wrote...

You people are crazy, Cersei is my favorite character right now, and no, she didn't ask Jaime to kill Bran, in fact in a later episode she told Jaime that pushing Bran out of the window wasn't a good idea, discrediting his story would be preferred, but Jaime reaffirmed his choice to kill Bran or anyone that threatens her. For me Cersei is the queen, and if she need to kill, scam, manipulate the people around her to maintain power and protect her family, then so be it, if I am in her position and situation, I doubt I would act any different. She is pragmatist, but definitely not evil. Daenerys on the other hand is pure evil.

Have you read the books? If not, my point is made. They are screwing Cersei's charachter if it's your favourite one .

About Dany, what's the evil in her? I can't see any. Maybe in the TV show they have cut a lot of charachter development, so she seems more cold and hard than her book counterpart at the same time. But evil? No.

Modifié par FedericoV, 03 juin 2011 - 11:07 .

[FedericoV]

GodWood wrote...

I think your hatred of her is blinding your interpretation of her character just a tad.

For me she was both a selfish, narcissistic, b*tch but also [for the most part] an intelligent, manipulative queen and a protective mother.

I don't know. Maybe you're right and it's just hate. But I've read the series (too) many times and the lack of intellgence of Cersei is quite clear even before AFfC. I don't want to spoil the story for non readers so maybe we can talk about that at the end of season 1.

All I can say right now is that if Ned wasn't such an honorable stupid and if Littlefinger wasn't such a smart bastard, the head of Cersei would have been on a pyke at the end of the last episode .

Modifié par FedericoV, 03 juin 2011 - 11:27 .

[grimkillah]

FedericoV wrote...

Have you read the books? If not, my point is made. They are screwing Cersei's charachter if it's your favourite one .

About Dany, what's the evil in her? I can't see any. Maybe in the TV show they have cut a lot of charachter development, so she seems more cold and hard than her book counterpart at the same time. But evil? No.

I have read the first book before season one so I can have a refernce to the show, but not planning to read the rest of the series until new season starts. However from the very start, Cersei was my favorite character, and the Lannisters in general (apart from Joffrey).
I simpily cannot stand Ned stark and his whole family except for Jon Snow, Bran and Arya. I found his so called honor is untested, living in isolation up in the North, Starks have been sheltered from the reality. Lannisters of Casterly Rock on the other hand faces House Tully  to the east and and House Tyrell in the south, and its coast in open to invasion from Greyjoys of Iron Islands. Lannisters are built for survival, not uphold some ill-conceived principle to the point that will cost one's life. And Cersei is the quintessential lannister, smart, calculating, ruthless and a loving mother.
Daenerys on the other hand cannot be trusted, everything we know about her is from her own point of view, hence nothing more than lies she weaved for the audience. Too many people are fooled by her so called childish innocence and her pretty face to see the real **** that she is. She is no different than her brother, just smarter and more cunning. But for the sake of Westeros (aka Lannisterland), she must be killed, but I doubt she will be until the end. But I do hope it will be a Lannister who cut her throat.
Well there you have it, my favorite character is Cersei, and I hate Daenerys the most.

[Addai]

Cersei is about the only character that I can think of who is presented simply as a "bad seed." Not to spoil too much, but she shows murderous tendencies even very early on in life. She's ambitious and ruthless, too- some sociopaths turn out to be quite successful in life- but it doesn't change what she is. Finger-wagging at Jaime after the deed was done and Bran somehow lived doesn't change the fact that she egged Jaime on while a little boy was perched on a ledge.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 juin 2011 - 03:54 .

[grimkillah]

More like Jaime choose the easy option and didn't think ahead, which is very typical of him. In no way can you consider that it is Cersei's fault. all the negative things said about Cersei, none is actually things she done herself, Jaime pushes the boy, its Cersei's fault, Joffrey is a jerk, Cersei's fault, Jon Arryn dies, Cersei's fault, Ned in trouble, Cersei's fault. While at the same time, Ned kills the boy deserter without actual investigation, people forgives him, but when Cersei wanting to marry Joffrey to Sansa, and unite the two houses, she is now evil. Daenerys bosses her brother as soon as she found a stronger protector, we overlook it. Yet Cersei and Jaime in a loving relationship, that is somehow wrong. Catelyn captures Tyrion with little evidence, we forgives her. But when Cersei tries to pressure Ned to release Tyrion, everyone think she is a ****. Furthermore, almost every character in the series is ambitious and some far more ruthless than Cersei, and yet, she is singled out as the most hated. If that isn't irrational bias, I don't know what is.

[Nerevar-as]

Most of the others at least have some redeeming/positive traits to balance. Cersei (and Viserys and Joffrey) don´t. Then there´s the point that she isn´t half as intelligent as she thinks herself to be.

[KenKenpachi]

So far I've been reading the wiki and plan to buy the books. At first I was like meh....I don't like this, and the fact

SPOILER WARN"ING

so many of your more "good" people die kinda rubs me wrong while ****s like little finger tend to be okay. at the same time however with all the other happenings it makes me really want to watch/read it to the finish and see how things end up. Which makes me wonder if HBO has plans to make the other books into shows.

[Addai]

grimkillah wrote...

More like Jaime choose the easy option and didn't think ahead, which is very typical of him. In no way can you consider that it is Cersei's fault. all the negative things said about Cersei, none is actually things she done herself, Jaime pushes the boy, its Cersei's fault, Joffrey is a jerk, Cersei's fault, Jon Arryn dies, Cersei's fault, Ned in trouble, Cersei's fault. While at the same time, Ned kills the boy deserter without actual investigation, people forgives him, but when Cersei wanting to marry Joffrey to Sansa, and unite the two houses, she is now evil.

No, Cersei is evil just because she's evil.  Sorry, there's not much room for discussion on this topic IMO.    The fact that she rarely actually does the deed doesn't lessen this at all.  I doubt anyone considers Ned or anyone else a saint- GRRM fans tend to like that about his books, that there are no paladins.

Daenerys bosses her brother as soon as she found a stronger protector, we overlook it. Yet Cersei and Jaime in a loving relationship, that is somehow wrong.

I think there's some pathos about Cersei-Jaime, not far upthread I said that it was touching in a ****ed up way.  However the fact that Cersei is banging her brother is the least of her faults.

Catelyn captures Tyrion with little evidence, we forgives her.

A LOT of people hate Catelyn.  Do you read any of the fan sites?

Modifié par Addai67, 03 juin 2011 - 06:58 .

[Addai]

KenKenpachi wrote...

So far I've been reading the wiki and plan to buy the books. At first I was like meh....I don't like this, and the fact

SPOILER WARN"ING

so many of your more "good" people die kinda rubs me wrong while ****s like little finger tend to be okay. at the same time however with all the other happenings it makes me really want to watch/read it to the finish and see how things end up. Which makes me wonder if HBO has plans to make the other books into shows.

They plan to adapt the other books, too.  Season two, based on book two, is already in pre-production.

[Addai]

Publisher's Weekly has put out a review of A Dance With Dragons.  It's spoilery, beware.  Non-spoilery comment: They say it's much like A Feast For Crows in its slower pacing and themes, but focuses on popular characters that got short shrift in FFC, and the ending hints that the following installments will return to bloody and chaotic.


Book spoilers follow:



The book focuses on Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys.

We will find out more about Jon's parentage.  (SCORE!!!)

[Seagloom]

Interesting review. I wish there were more spoilers though! That is mercilessly little revealed. It kills me with curiosity. More Tyrion and Jon is cool. I can take or leave Dany arcs, but I guess she matters to the story or something. You know what burns me about this book? We are probably not going to find out what happened to Brienne given where the PoV chapters are focused.

grimkillah wrote...

Daenerys on the other hand cannot be trusted, everything we know about her is from her own point of view, hence nothing more than lies she weaved for the audience.

I disagree with you wholeheartedly on Cersei, but I am feeling too lazy to get into a debate. The quoted sentence puzzled me enough to warrant a response. How does that prove Dany is untrustworthy? We know what she thinks so it follows we understand the motives behind her actions. She is no inscrutable jerk a la Littlefinger. Could seeing her life through her lens skew our perception of events? Certainly. But usually there exist sufficient details to figure out what is occurring and make our own judgment calls outside of Dany's thoughts and/or potential ignorance.

Besides, if Dany's chapters are deceptive, should that not logically apply to everyone? It is not as if she is breaking the fourth wall here.

Modifié par Seagloom, 03 juin 2011 - 09:46 .

[Gvaz]

I can't wait to see the reaction of everyone for the last few episodes

[TJPags]

grimkillah wrote...

More like Jaime choose the easy option and didn't think ahead, which is very typical of him. In no way can you consider that it is Cersei's fault. all the negative things said about Cersei, none is actually things she done herself, Jaime pushes the boy, its Cersei's fault, Joffrey is a jerk, Cersei's fault, Jon Arryn dies, Cersei's fault, Ned in trouble, Cersei's fault. While at the same time, Ned kills the boy deserter without actual investigation, people forgives him, but when Cersei wanting to marry Joffrey to Sansa, and unite the two houses, she is now evil. Daenerys bosses her brother as soon as she found a stronger protector, we overlook it. Yet Cersei and Jaime in a loving relationship, that is somehow wrong. Catelyn captures Tyrion with little evidence, we forgives her. But when Cersei tries to pressure Ned to release Tyrion, everyone think she is a ****. Furthermore, almost every character in the series is ambitious and some far more ruthless than Cersei, and yet, she is singled out as the most hated. If that isn't irrational bias, I don't know what is.

Wow, do you have a completely different read on her than ANYone I've ever seen.

Not to get too spoilery here, but:

Who do you think killed Jon Arryn?  Did you miss that piece with Jaime and Cersei in the beginning of episode 1?  And everything about it in the book?

Did you miss that Cersei was involved in an adulturous, incestuous relationship with her brother?

Did you miss that Joffrey is raised by and surrounded by Lannisters, when he is rightly a Baratheon?

Did you miss that it wasn't Cersei who wanted to marry Sansa to Joffrey, but Robert?

While I agree Catelyn was wrong, did you miss that Ned had the absolute authority to have ordered Cat to capture Tyrion?  While he didn't actually give that order, he said he did - the only one who can countermand that is the King, not Cersei.

I'll also point out that hatred of Cersei is seriously validated in later books, even if you feel it's not validated in book 1.

[GodWood]

TJPags wrote...
Not to get too spoilery here, but:

Who do you think killed Jon Arryn?

Which she did to protect herself, her children and her brother.

Did you miss that Cersei was involved in an adulturous, incestuous relationship with her brother?

Call me weird but I don't really think someone having an incestuous relationship is a valid excuse to hate them.
Grossed out sure but hate, not so much.
Besides her husband was a cheating bastard as well.

Did you miss that Joffrey is raised by and surrounded by Lannisters, when he is rightly a Baratheon?

So?

I'll also point out that hatred of Cersei is seriously validated in later books, even if you feel it's not validated in book 1.

I'm curious as to what these things are, I've read the books and I really can't think of anything she's done that makes her out to be as evil as a couple of posters here have.
She's just a b*tch.


Anyways, I feel I should note, I'm not trying to sway people from hating Cercei.
She's a b*tch character that was written to be hated by most.
My point simply is that she's not just some mindlessly evil monster like some are making her out to be.
She's a morally grey character who will simply do whatever it takes to maintain power in Westeros, protect her children and keep her relationship with Jaime a secret.

[FedericoV]

Addai67 wrote...

Publisher's Weekly has put out a review of A Dance With Dragons.  It's spoilery, beware.  Non-spoilery comment: They say it's much like A Feast For Crows in its slower pacing and themes, but focuses on popular characters that got short shrift in FFC, and the ending hints that the following installments will return to bloody and chaotic.

**** MAJOR SPOILER BELOW****













I don't mind if the book has the same style and themes of AFfC: I've no problem with those aspects. And I have no problems with secondary POVs like the ones from dorne and the iron island. The problem of Feast was that nothing significant happens if not for the Cerse's chapter. There is a lot of setup without any form of satisfying resolution. Brienne's chapter were particularly painfull to read becase they seem just aimless wandering.

So, if ADwD does not advance the plot in a significant way and ends with a massive series of cliffhangers like AFfC, I would be disappointed. After six years of long and patient wait I want something on the same level of ACoK or at least AGoT in terms of plot and events.

Btw, I still hope that the book will solve Brienne's cliffhanger in some way, using other povs. You know, at the end she has 3 possibilities with Lady Stonehart: be killed, accept to kill jaime, free herself from any engagement remembering that the deal with Cat could end anytime Brienne wished to go hunt Stannis for Renly's death.

[Eski.Moe]

I'm getting excited for episode 8. The fact that GRRM wrote it and what I'm expecting to see. Man, things are gonna be dialed up no matter what.
Also excited for aDwD. Not gonna check out the review. July can't come soon enough.

[LTD]

KenKenpachi wrote...

So far I've been reading the wiki and plan to buy the books. At first I was like meh....I don't like this, and the fact

*Le gasp*
Why....why would you do such thing:o To wreck such magnificent pile of perfectly good books and an  HBO TV series to boot by spoiling it all! Tis but self destructive folly good ser:l

Have many here stumbled across the Hedge Knight stories?Tis (growing) series of three tSoIaF spinoff tales of sorts, set in Westeros some 90 years before the events of  Game of Thrones. Short stories. I read em all the other night and liked them well enough. Nothing ambitious in any way, much..easier and more light hearted reading than the actual tSoIaF books.

Modifié par LTD, 04 juin 2011 - 06:58 .

[Addai]

I've read "The Hedge Knight." Loved it! I love the premise and setting, but mostly the fact that it shows more of the Targaryens.

[LTD]

Addai67 wrote...

I've read "The Hedge Knight." Loved it! I love the premise and setting, but mostly the fact that it shows more of the Targaryens.

Yar indeed. Getting to know a larger pile of Targaryens does wonders in giving some additional depth to Westeros' history. Tis very nice to know more of what exactly the usurper usurperd. I keep hoping for a time jump somewhere along the line of the coming Hedge Knight stories. Would be a blast to get to know the young Aerys and whomnot.
GRRM sure likes his tourneys.. I wager even his scifi tales have people jousting and breaking lances all over the place. Not that I mind, it's some cool ****

Modifié par LTD, 04 juin 2011 - 07:26 .