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[Fast Jimmy]

No, he didn't go off about heroism at all.

I do remember a conversation I had with David where he stated every story was heroic, every main character was a hero, or else there wouldn't be a point to their story. I gave him examples of stories, famous stories, where there were no acts of heroism, where there weren't even any protagonists in the true sense, and said they were still critically acclaimed pieces of fiction.

His response was that they weren't stories. Because there weren't heroes, these weren't stories. I checked out after that.

[God]

But if she has barely changed since season 1 (and she really hasn't changed much at all) why would it all of a sudden kick in now?

 

They wanna do growth through rape? Did they not see the explosion of feminist rage when Tomb Raider came out

 

I think she's changed a lot. I'd say more than a lot of other characters, except that everyone has almost entirely changed.

 

The change has been gradual over the course of the series. It's the same as in the books: "My skin has gone from porcelain, to ivory, to steel." You see how she has her illusions and views on the world come crashing down horrifically around her at almost every step, and then you see where she finally makes the realization that she can take advantage of it with the help of Littlefinger. 

 

Last season, we saw the most dramatic visual change with her adoption of the darker hair and darker dress style. Everyone was talking about how Sansa was now a real player in the game. 

 

And I think the rape scene in question was gratuitous. I know what happens in the books as well, but I think this is the point where the show has a dipped quality. I don't think it's going to last, and I think it will get better. But as far as middle-season ruts go, this is arguably the worst for GoT.

[God]

That sounds like something David would say.

 

As Dermain said, I never said anything about heroism. I'm saying that there has to be a purpose to Sansa's story and her growth, and then they go and slide her back into the role of helpless damsel who is once again at the mercy of a sadistic psycho who uses violence on her. It just goes in the face of the growth of where she's been going all season, and where she came from last season (narratively speaking).

[Steelcan]

Because narratively, her story has to go somewhere. Otherwise, what would be the point of telling the story? She'd be like every other lowborn in Westeros, with a story not really worth telling.

no it absolutely doesn't have to

 

the show writers can make her a dead end if they want to, and they just might.

[Steelcan]

the show has thus far been fairly ok with cutting out some of the actual bits of character growth, such as Jaime in the Riverlands or anything remotely interesting in Dorne with Arianne and co.  Instead focusing on the slip of Dany into Aerys territory and ambling along in the North while LF does his thing.

 

It seems to me that right now they aren't sure where to go next since they've trimmed so much of the books out.  They can't spend time developing the Ironborn because their gone, no way to use the Manderlys to show the state of the Northern lords because Lord Lamprey is MIA, can't show the continued devastation in the Riverlands because the BwB haven't been seen and LS isnt around.

[God]

no it absolutely doesn't have to

 

the show writers can make her a dead end if they want to, and they just might.

 

They don't have to, of course not, nothing's stopping them. 

 

But think of all the time and money that they've invested into her character. That'd be a real waste, especially if there's no growth from just seeing her suffer. Suffer suffer suffer death. Someone's got to approve money for that, and if the point of that was to just prolong suffering, they'd probably tell them to just go ahead and off her if the story isn't going anywhere (or is fulfilled). Which isn't the case for Sansa. 

 

It'd be like killing off Tyrion right now. The show isn't so brutal that it kills off people without having fulfilled some kind of purpose in the narrative. Sansa has yet to fulfill that purpose, as does Tyrion. Or ****, Daenerys. You know Daenerys is going to return to Westeros. Otherwise, why the hell did Martin even bother writing about her, if the story doesn't connect with everything else later. It simply doesn't make narrative sense. Most every other character that has died did have a purpose that was meant to be fulfilled, and was so. There death's, however shocking and unforeseen, made narrative sense. It's why Theon's still alive. He still has a part to play in the story, however small. They aren't keeping characters just to show how terrible their lives are and then offing them without giving a message.

 

It doesn't make sense within the story to just off Sansa now or keep her perpetually struggling and being humiliated and abused at the hands of a sadist.

[Steelcan]

They don't have to, of course not, nothing's stopping them. 

 

But think of all the time and money that they've invested into her character. That'd be a real waste, especially if there's no growth from just seeing her suffer. Suffer suffer suffer death. 

 

It'd be like killing off Tyrion right now. The show isn't so brutal that it kills off people without having fulfilled some kind of purpose in the narrative. Sansa has yet to fulfill that purpose, as does Tyrion. Or ****, Daenerys. You know Daenerys is going to return to Westeros. Otherwise, why the hell did Martin even bother writing about her, if the story doesn't connect with everything else later. It simply doesn't make narrative sense. Most every other character that has died did have a purpose that was meant to be fulfilled, and was so. There death's, however shocking and unforeseen, made narrative sense.

 

It doesn't make sense within the story to just off Sansa now or keep her perpetually struggling and being humiliated and abused at the hands of a sadist.

well I don't think she's going to die, I think Brienne and Pod are going to rescue her and maybe Theon since Mance is dead.  And of the group, one of them won't make it out, my money is on Brienne since the season has done a good bit to spell out "your oath is fulfilled"

[Fast Jimmy]

As Dermain said, I never said anything about heroism. I'm saying that there has to be a purpose to Sansa's story and her growth, and then they go and slide her back into the role of helpless damsel who is once again at the mercy of a sadistic psycho who uses violence on her. It just goes in the face of the growth of where she's been going all season, and where she came from last season (narratively speaking).

I wasn't being serious. Sorry.

[Fast Jimmy]

You nose nothing, Jon Snow.

[Addai]

All the faux outrage over the Sansa scene. What did people think was going to happen on Ramsay Bolton's wedding night? I think it was mainly about showing that Theon is still in there somewhere.

The male character in the scene was actually emasculated, but that was apparently a-okay.

As Dermain said, I never said anything about heroism. I'm saying that there has to be a purpose to Sansa's story and her growth, and then they go and slide her back into the role of helpless damsel who is once again at the mercy of a sadistic psycho who uses violence on her. It just goes in the face of the growth of where she's been going all season, and where she came from last season (narratively speaking).

Strong women do get raped. It doesn't make them not strong.

[Drone223]

I've taken an interest in GoT and decided to watch a few episode and suffice to say they're very good......unfortunately I haven't watched the first four seasons.

[DrBlingzle]

IThere are some videos that expand on the lore of westeros which I think came with the DVD of season 4. If you haven't seen them, you can see them here: https://www.youtube....DGcIZTNrxgm5NH6

 

It's nice to see things from the books which they didn't have time to add into the show, still recognized in the extras.

And Bronn makes one of the best narraters ever.

[Malanek]

I've taken an interest in GoT and decided to watch a few episode and suffice to say they're very good......unfortunately I haven't watched the first four seasons.

Read the books!!!

[Fast Jimmy]

Read the books!!!

Watch the show... THEN read the books. You'll enjoy both immensely if you do it on that order.

[Fast Jimmy]

Would you like to be a Stoneman?
Jorah, your skin is going to rot
The Golden Company is going to
Have some words with you
If you turn into a zombie on the spot...

You and Dany used to be best buddies
But now your not... because you were a spyyyyy...

Do you wanna be a Stoneman?
Jorah Mormont the Stoneman...

[Fast Jimmy]

Okay, bye...

[Mr Fixit]

Okay, bye...

 

Going somewhere?

[mousestalker]

For your consideration:

[Fast Jimmy]

Going somewhere?

I guess I meant it more as:

[Fast Jimmy]

[Nole]

Nice pair 

[mousestalker]

I really liked this episode. Story happened, character developed, there was plot.

Spoiler

Sansa now knows Reek is totally broken. Cersei had a very bad day. The Tyrells and Littlefinger also are not enjoying themselves. Stannis has a dilemma. Treachery at the Wall and Sam is a man and a maester so it would seem.

[Steelcan]

Dorne continues to be a drag

 

Stannis is awesome as always

 

Sansa still doesn't get that he's Reek now, not Theon, and I doubt he'll be back anytime soon. 

 

I wonder if the show will even bother with the "daggers in the dark" for Jon, or just skip it entirely, I hope they just skip it since its just a pointless cliffhanger.  Dany still fails to impress in anyway whatsoever, though here's hoping Tyrion talks some sense into her, though my hopes are not high.

 

And then there was the meat of the episode.  #gitrektCersei

[AresKeith]

And then there was the meat of the episode.  #gitrektCersei

 

Hopefully Ramsey is next