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[Iakus]

Can't say I agree with the last bit. While Stannis played in murky waters regarding Fire Lord's magic, we haven't seen him cross this line before (Davos gave Gendry a repreive on that front). In that sense, I think it can be considered to be pretty real plot development, regardless of how hard the pill is to swallow. Unlike Jaime, I don't think Stannis' story is going the redemptive route. 

 

I see Roose Bolton most likely dying next episode (with Ramsay escaping), while Stannis is tortured mentally by his actions before being handled by Brienne. 

Stannis always followed the rule of law.  He wasn't an "ends justify the means" type of person.  He had lines, and he never crossed them, nor did he allow others to do so.  He was harsh, but he was also just. 

 

Emphasis on "was"

 

Edit:  regarding Renly.  I'm not sure it was a turning point, so much as an example of his unrelenting passion for the law.  Whatever else Renly was, even his brother, he was still a traitor for leading a rebellion.

[Cunning Villain]

Can't say I agree with the last bit. While Stannis played in murky waters regarding Fire Lord's magic, we haven't seen him cross this line before (Davos gave Gendry a repreive on that front). In that sense, I think it can be considered to be pretty real plot development, regardless of how hard the pill is to swallow. It's essentially crossing the point of no return, but unlike Jaime, I don't think Stannis' story is going the redemptive route. 

 

I see Roose Bolton most likely dying next episode (with Ramsay escaping), while Stannis is tortured mentally by his actions before being handled by Brienne. 

 

Edit: Thinking about it a bit more, I guess we could point to Renly as being a "turning point", but at least back in S2 it didn't seem to have the same weight as the sacrifice here. 

 

i probably shouldn't ask this since I just ordered all five books, but how do Stannis and Brienne end up crossing paths and why would the be at odds?

[Iakus]

Yeah and I'm trying hard to stay interested. We don't get proper fantasy stories on TV with this level of production value often so I want to stay committed to the show, but it just feels like the writers are like "lol we gotta kill off this character like this. It'll be so awesome." 

I want a Mistborn series.

 

Or a Dresden Files that's more faithful to the books.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Predicting it will be a Jon, Danny, and Tyrion triumvirate.

 

The dragon has three heads...

I was more implying the two characters I like that would make good kings.

Or Winter coming through and the White Walkers win.

 

...I mean, they have a good health plan.

[Iakus]

I was more implying the two characters I like that would make good kings.

Or Winter coming through and the White Walkers win.

 

...I mean, they have a good health plan.

Yeah, and I think Jon (and Danny) will end up ruling Westeros once the dust has settled.  Quite likely with Tyrion.

 

Or the WHite Walkers will win, I wouldn't put it past them (or Martin) to go  that route at this point 

[Il Divo]

Stannis always followed the rule of law.  He wasn't an "ends justify the means" type of person.  He had lines, and he never crossed them, nor did he allow others to do so.  He was harsh, but he was also just. 

 

Emphasis on "was"

 

Well, beyond the "murder everyone who disagreed with him" bit. 

 

I've been rewatching the whole series. They definitely downplay Stannis being Lawful Neutral compared to the books, though there's still the occasional reference to his obsession with justice (having his Maester write "Ser Jaime Lannister the Kingslayer" for example. 

 

But I can't say I buy the idea that he didn't exhibit an ends justify the means type personality, particularly for the show (Gendry anyone?). I do think his employment of shadow creatures and fire magic to (his belief) murder Renly, Robb Stark, Joffrey, etc, to be pushing it. 

[TheClonesLegacy]

Yeah, and I think Jon (and Danny) will end up ruling Westeros once the dust has settled.  Quite likely with Tyrion.

 

Or the WHite Walkers will win, I wouldn't put it past them (or Martin) to go  that route at this point 

The Night's King is rad. Despite being pretty much a non-entity in the books.

[KaiserShep]

Or the WHite Walkers will win, I wouldn't put it past them (or Martin) to go  that route at this point 

 

 

I fully expect all of the GRRMverse to be reduced to a wintery wasteland. I'm totally resigned to that fate now.

[Il Divo]

i probably shouldn't ask this since I just ordered all five books, but how do Stannis and Brienne end up crossing paths and why would the be at odds?

 

To be clear: that's a prediction I'm making entirely based on the show, just given the story directions of both characters, how close in proximity they are, as well Brienne's explaining to Pod how she'll put a sword through Stannis' heart. 

 

 

As a random aside: was anyone else enjoying all the jokes during the Fighting Pits about Big Men vs. Smaller Men? I still haven't quite gotten over Oberyn's ending, so it was kinda funny watching them lamp shade it. 

[God]

At this point I'm pushing for Jon, Tyrion, or The Nights King for the Iron Throne. No one else deserves the thing.

 

Stannis is still the rightful king. There's a pretty big parallel between him and Azor Ahai. The one where they both sacrifice one who is immeasurably endearing for them. The one's who will do anything for what's right.

 

Sam said it best. It may not seem like it's the right thing, or even a good thing. But it is the right thing, no matter the ideology behind it.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I guess I'm the only person on the internet that supports what Stannis did.

 

It is the way. 

 

It's painful. It's hard. It's heartbreaking. It's awful. It's cruel. It's ruthless. It's brutal. It's cold.

 

And it is the right thing. It is what must be done. Stannis, by god, was doing what had to be done. 

 

If a man knows what he is and remains true to himself, the choice is no choice at all. He must fulfill his destiny, and become who he is meant to be. However much he may hate it.

 

Stannis will always be the Mannis.

 

"If a man knows what he is and remains true to himself, the choice is no choice at all".

 

Only that's the exact opposite of what the writers have done with stannis, and thus why everyone is mad. If Stannis was protrayed as the type of man who viewed his child as an expendable battery for the red god, then fine. But he's never, ever, been shown to think like that, or even contemplate that.

 

So it's hard to see him doing so when the going hasn't even gotten bad yet. Truth to a character? There are no truths here. What had to be done? How is it that when it was your first option? Full filling his destiny? The destiny to seat his daughter and only heir upon the throne? That ONE? The one he's had since he was first introduced in the goddamn books!?!

 

And Azor had to burn his wife to win. Great, only it wasn't his wife who burned, so the whole point is mute from the start!
 

[Cunning Villain]

To be clear: that's a prediction I'm making entirely based on the show, just given the story directions of both characters, how close in proximity they are, as well Brienne's explaining to Pod how she'll put a sword through Stannis' heart. 

 

 

As a random aside: was anyone else enjoying all the jokes during the Fighting Pits about Big Men vs. Smaller Men? I still haven't quite gotten over Oberyn's ending, so it was kinda funny watching them lamp shade it. 

 

Yeah, it just came to me why Brienne would want to kill Stannis - Renly.

 

Well, I hope it happens. I well and truly despise Stannis after tonight's episode.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, it just came to me why Brienne would want to kill Stannis - Renly.

 

Well, I hope it happens. I well and truly despise Stannis after tonight's episode.

 

 

You're not supposed to openly express that hope. Now they're gonna kill Brienne instead. Thanks a lot. You ruined it. 

[Cunning Villain]

Stannis is still the rightful king. There's a pretty big parallel between him and Azor Ahai. The one where they both sacrifice one who is immeasurably endearing for them. The one's who will do anything for what's right.

 

Sam said it best. It may not seem like it's the right thing, or even a good thing. But it is the right thing, no matter the ideology behind it.

I'm about as likely to be written into the show as Azor Ahai reborn as Stannis is.

[Obadiah]

I swear, this story exists just to dick with the audience.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Bullshit on anyone who defends this plotpoint. It would have been in stannis's character to fail, rather then sacrifice his daughter. It would have been in character for stannis to die, then for him to willing burn his daughter to death.

 

Anyone who says otherwise is just being a fanboy, hoping stannis wins the iron throne. Not that stannis is in any way in character to how he's suppose to be. Because screw character development and depth, I just want them to win! Who cares if they go against everything they believe in, and everything that defined them, as long as they get to sit in the stupid pointy chair.

 

Call me Salty, because this change was pure ass.

[Il Divo]

Yeah, it just came to me why Brienne would want to kill Stannis - Renly.

 

Well, I hope it happens. I well and truly intensely dislike Stannis after tonight's episode.

 

To be honest, I always thought of Stannis as a red herring. He's that contender for the Iron Throne who's managed to outlast many of the other contenders, but who I never thought of as seriously having the potential to be the ultimate victor. 

[God]

"If a man knows what he is and remains true to himself, the choice is no choice at all".

 

Only that's the exact opposite of what the writers have done with stannis, and thus why everyone is mad. If Stannis was protrayed as the type of man who viewed his child as an expendable battery for the red god, then fine. But he's never, ever, been shown to think like that, or even contemplate that.

 

So it's hard to see him doing so when the going hasn't even gotten bad yet. Truth to a character? There are no truths here. What had to be done? How is it that when it was your first option? Full filling his destiny? The destiny to seat his daughter and only heir upon the throne? That ONE? The one he's had since he was first introduced in the goddamn books!?!

 

And the red god had to burn his wife to win. Great, only it wasn't his wife who burned, so the whole point is mute from the start!
 

 

I don't think it is the opposite of what needed to be done. Now, are the show writers trying to portray Stannis as a monster? Yes. 

 

Still Stannis understood that no matter how much he loved his daughter, ultimately, her death may yield the result for him to take Winterfell, and to gain a clear base to begin his operation to take back the Throne. The going was pretty bad. The only other options were starve to death or freeze to death. What other options had he? Return to Castle Black? He has an army that is almost entirely on foot now. March on Winterfell? With said force against an entrenched and fortified host? Not likely. Blood magic however is an option. It's been proven to work. 

 

His destiny is to take the throne. 

 

I'd say a wife and a daughter are similar like sacrifices. Either way, it's sacrificing a loved one for victory. For duty. I still find his actions sympathetic.

[God]

You're not supposed to openly express that hope. Now they're gonna kill Brienne instead. Thanks a lot. You ruined it. 

 

Good.

[Il Divo]

Only watched the episode once but didn't Stannis say pretty openly they didn't have the food stores at this point to make it back to Castle Black? If so, I'd say that leaves your entire army pretty close to the "we're dead" mark. 

[TheClonesLegacy]

Stannis is still the rightful king. There's a pretty big parallel between him and Azor Ahai. The one where they both sacrifice one who is immeasurably endearing for them. The one's who will do anything for what's right.

 

Sam said it best. It may not seem like it's the right thing, or even a good thing. But it is the right thing, no matter the ideology behind it.

Or you know.

Stannis could've burned his sons-in-a-jar.

Pretty sure they got both kings blood and kings stemcells in 'em.

How's that for a loophole? But nope. Only I think of these things.

 

Also, since his daughters gone, Lord of Light's gonna have nothing left to have sacrificed to 'im. Where's Mellisandre gonna be when the White Walkers show up with their hoard of the dead and pack of Ice Dragons?

Huddled in the corner sucking her thumb I'll bet. Cause she'll be worthless at that point.

[God]

Bullshit on anyone who defends this plotpoint. It would have been in stannis's character to fail, rather then sacrifice his daughter. It would have been in character for stannis to die, then for him to willing burn his daughter to death.

 

Anyone who says otherwise is just being a fanboy, hoping stannis wins the iron throne. Not that stannis is in any way in character to how he's suppose to be. Because screw character development and depth, I just want them to win! Who cares if they go against everything they believe in, and everything that defined them, as long as they get to sit in the stupid pointy chair.

 

Call me Salty, because this change was pure ass.

 

Sure thing Salty. I defend this plot point, and I do find it perfectly in character.

 

Probably because I would do the same thing for duty at the end of the day. Stannis is the man who will break before he bends. He will not give up, no matter the cost, personal or professional. He will pay the cost, no matter what he has to do. 

 

Stannis believes in his duty. He believes in his destiny. This is perfectly in character for him. 

[KaiserShep]

Sure thing Salty. I defend this plot point, and I do find it perfectly in character.

 

Probably because I would do the same thing for duty at the end of the day. Stannis is the man who will break before he bends. He will not give up, no matter the cost, personal or professional. He will pay the cost, no matter what he has to do. 

 

Stannis believes in his duty. He believes in his destiny. This is perfectly in character for him. 

 

But then, what was all that talk about his resolve to see that his daughter lives with him rather than be cast out to live with the stone men? It seems like he's just jumping causes, because first it seemed like he was super determined to make sure that no matter what either he or his daughter will get the throne, and now he just turns her into a battery for the proverbial fiery wish-making monkey's paw.

 

Surely he didn't plan this from the beginning. 

[Iakus]

Only watched the episode once but didn't Stannis say pretty openly they didn't have the food stores at this point to make it back to Castle Black? If so, I'd say that leaves your entire army pretty close to the "we're dead" mark. 

Stannis would let his whole army die than do something he saw as unjust.  I never cared for him much in the books.  But I had a certain admiration for that quality in him.  That there were lines he would not cross

 

There's actually a scene in the books where his army is caught in a storm with very little food,   He is encouraged to burn an unbeliever to get R'hllor to lift the storm.  His response?

 

"Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder."