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[Cainhurst Crow]

Sure thing Salty. I defend this plot point, and I do find it perfectly in character.

 

Probably because I would do the same thing for duty at the end of the day. Stannis is the man who will break before he bends. He will not give up, no matter the cost, personal or professional. He will pay the cost, no matter what he has to do. 

 

Stannis believes in his duty. He believes in his destiny. This is perfectly in character for him. 

 

What you're typing doesn't line up with what your claiming.

 

He'd never break, only he did in sacrificing Shireen. He'd never go back on his duty, only he went back on his duty to his daughter as a father and man of the law. He'd never give up, only he did give up on the one thing most important to him. No matter the cost, only he folded and didn't pay the ultimate cost of a hard trek back to castle black. Personal, he did. He will pay the cost, only he avoided it by sacrificing Shireen instead.

[Rawgrim]

Stannis tells his wife not to strike the girl. He has gone out of his way to protect her in the past. What happened in this episode was nothing short of a 180 done purely for shock vallue.

 

The show is starting to look like the Saw movies now, in a way.

[Iakus]

What you're typing doesn't line up with what your claiming.

 

He'd never break, only he did in sacrificing Shireen. He'd never go back on his duty, only he went back on his duty to his daughter as a father and man of the law. He'd never give up, only he did give up on the one thing most important to him. No matter the cost, only he folded and didn't pay the ultimate cost of a hard trek back to castle black. Personal, he did. He will pay the cost, only he avoided it by sacrificing Shireen instead.

Indeed.

 

THis act makes him a kinslayer.  Cursed forever in the sights of gods and men.  

 

Edit:  There's possibly some justification for Renly, as he was technically guilty of treason.   BUt Shireen was an innocent

[Cunning Villain]

Sure thing Salty. I defend this plot point, and I do find it perfectly in character.

 

Probably because I would do the same thing for duty at the end of the day. Stannis is the man who will break before he bends. He will not give up, no matter the cost, personal or professional. He will pay the cost, no matter what he has to do. 

 

Stannis believes in his duty. He believes in his destiny. This is perfectly in character for him.

 

Yeah, I don't think I'd ever burn my daughter alive under any circumstances. Maybe that's just me.

[AlanC9]

He'd never break, only he did in sacrificing Shireen. He'd never go back on his duty, only he went back on his duty to his daughter as a father and man of the law. He'd never give up, only he did give up on the one thing most important to him. No matter the cost, only he folded and didn't pay the ultimate cost of a hard trek back to castle black. Personal, he did. He will pay the cost, only he avoided it by sacrificing Shireen instead.

This assumes a particular hierarchy of duties, doesn't it?

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, I don't think I'd ever burn my daughter alive under any circumstances. Maybe that's just me.

I'd sooner just set myself on fire, that's for damn sure. 

[Il Divo]

Indeed.

 

THis act makes him a kinslayer.  Cursed forever in the sights of gods and men.  

 

Edit:  There's possibly some justification for Renly, as he was technically guilty of treason.   BUt Shireen was an innocent

 

Still, I'm not sure whether treason or not is considered exemption for kinslaying. I mean, I don't see Robb Stark's broken promises giving Walder Frey the freedom to break guest right. 

[AlanC9]

Bullshit on anyone who defends this plotpoint. It would have been in stannis's character to fail, rather then sacrifice his daughter. It would have been in character for stannis to die, then for him to willing burn his daughter to death.

Anyone who says otherwise is just being a fanboy, hoping stannis wins the iron throne. Not that stannis is in any way in character to how he's suppose to be. Because screw character development and depth, I just want them to win! Who cares if they go against everything they believe in, and everything that defined them, as long as they get to sit in the stupid pointy chair.

I think this is a bit confused. I wasn't surprised to see Stannis go full Agamemnon precisely because I'm not a Stannis fanboy. I always figured that his inflexibility would lead him over a cliff sooner or later. And isn't it the Stannis fans who are upset?

[Il Divo]

Stannis would let his whole army die than do something he saw as unjust.  I never cared for him much in the books.  But I had a certain admiration for that quality in him.  That there were lines he would not cross

 

There's actually a scene in the books where his army is caught in a storm with very little food,   He is encouraged to burn an unbeliever to get R'hllor to lift the storm.  His response?

 

"Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder."

 

I certainly agree they emphasize the justice angle more in the books, but again I'm not really a fan of leaders who claim justice on the one hand, while supporting shadow demons and fire magic for assassinations in the other. That doesn't leave me with the impression there are lines which inevitably Stannis won't cross. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

Character assassination, pure and simple.

[Iakus]

Still, I'm not sure whether treason or not is considered exemption for kinslaying. I mean, I don't see Robb Stark's broken promises giving Walder Frey the freedom to break guest right.

It didn't. Breaking guest right is another strong taboo in Westeros. But the point is hat Stan is did removes all doubt of what he is: basically one of the most hated things in Westeros.

[Steelcan]

Its almost like cutting plotlines like the mountain tribesmen and Val has been a bad idea for the integrity of the story

[Iakus]

I certainly agree they emphasize the justice angle more in the books, but again I'm not really a fan of leaders who claim justice on the one hand, while supporting shadow demons and fire magic for assassinations in the other. That doesn't leave me with the impression there are lines which inevitably Stannis won't cross.

Oh I don't support it either, really. But it gave Stannis an interesting level of depth. He was not a good man, he hasn't announce of mercy in him. But he is a just man.

[TheClonesLegacy]

People make a big fuss about Promises in Westeros. Pinkie swears are a big deal.

This is why Jaime gets so much **** for killing The Mad King, despite being more than justified in doing so.

 

But this is on another level of wrong.

[dreamgazer]

In a preview chapter from The Winds of Winter, Stannis's dedication to his daughter appears unshaken — he mentions that if he should die in the forthcoming battle, his men should fight to seat Shireen on the Iron Throne. So the decision to burn her here seems to be a dramatic departure for his character. But, in the "Inside the Episode" segment this week, showrunner David Benioff discusses this scene, and mentions his reaction "when George first told us about this" — suggesting that it, or something like it, is Martin's plan after all.

http://www.vox.com/2...stannis-shireen

[SlottsMachine]

Yeah, I don't think I'd ever burn my daughter alive under any circumstances. Maybe that's just me.

 

God is vengeful tho.

[AlanC9]

Well, there goes the character assassination argument.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Well, there goes the character assassination argument.

And how exactly would Stannis burn Shireen when she is 500 miles to the North back at Castle Black?

[Il Divo]

And how exactly would Stannis burn Shireen when she is 500 miles to the North back at Castle Black?

 

Well, if that link is right and this was Martin's plan in its entirety, you're probably better off asking him. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

Well, if that link is right and this was Martin's idea, you're probably better off asking him. 

Or maybe he could finish his next book sometime between now and the time hell freezes over.

[AlanC9]

And how exactly would Stannis burn Shireen when she is 500 miles to the North back at Castle Black?

I don't see what you're getting at here.

[Il Divo]

Or maybe he could finish his next book sometime between now and the time hell freezes over.

 

I don't see that happening, sadly. That or he really does decide to extend to 8 books causing even more people to facepalm. 

 

Personally, I've given up on the idea of enjoying books. The first three were fantastic, but 4 and 5 have not really done much good for the story, in my opinion. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

Even if it's in the books, I wouldn't like it, because it turns a grey (admitedly dark grey at times) character into a straight up villain.

 

Because that's what Stannis has become. No matter how much one might say that he did it for any greater good (ignoring the fact that, in the show, he did it because Ninja!Ramsay took his stuff), burning your daughter alive at the stake is evil. No ifs no buts. It's a Moral Even Horizon of the highest order. There is no going back. Even Roose freaking Bolton doesn't like the idea of killing his progeny. 

 

Maybe it's the plan for GRRM, too. To make Stannis a villain. But I'd consider it a damn shame, because he fits ASOIAF so well as a character that is in no way a good guy, but not a truly bad one either. But burning Shireen? No way he's anything but a villain after that one. Martin is deluding himself if he thinks Stannis won't be viewed as a bad guy by the vast majority of the fandom if he burns Shireen in the books.