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[AlanC9]

I think the point is since events are unfolding differently in the tv show than in the books, the circumstances of her death in the book could be different.
 
The events in the tv show make no sense given Stannis's portrayal in the books.  So yes it is entirely possible that she dies under different circumstances, as we already know both the time and place are different.  I think it goes beyond "wishful thinking" and is well within the realm of "reasonable extrapolation"

I still don't see how it isn't wishful thinking; that "could" doesn't mean anything.

 

Benioff's pretty explicit; this is GRRM's plan:
 

"When George first told us about this, it was one of those moments where I remember looking at Dan and was just like, “God that’s so horrible and so good in the story sense because it all comes together.” From the beginning, from the very first time we saw Stannis and Melisandre, they were sacrificing people, they were burning people alive on the beaches of Dragonstone […] And it all leads ultimately, fatally to Shireen’s sacrifice.”

(Transcription courtesy of Salon.)

I don't see any rational basis for thinking that the books are going to have Stannis end up anywhere but where the series has put him.

[AlanC9]

It's physically impossible for Shireen to die at the same time and place in the books. It's a long way to Castle Black and any progress is going to be slowed by the weather. By the time Stannis next has the opprotunity to see Shireen the Battle for Winterfell will already have been decided as I've pointed out.

 

So unless Melisandre burns Shireen of her own accord (it's very unlikely Stannis would send a letter ordering it) Shireen won't die to clear up the weather so Stannis can take Winterfell. So a different reason is very likely.

 

I'm looking for a non-trivial difference. Something that would actually make Stannis' character different. Which particular battle he burns Shireen to win isn't morally significant, is it?

[Iakus]

I still don't see how it isn't wishful thinking; that "could" doesn't mean anything.

 

Benioff's pretty explicit; this is GRRM's plan:
 

Hey I'm with you that if you burn your daughter alive you have lost whatever moral high ground you may have claimed 

 

But that doesn't change that events are in fact unfolding differently, and the circumstances, even if they still aren't justifiable, will be different.

[Bison]

So much hate on her. 

 

I'm content with her simply returning to Westeros and not letting Targaryen bloodline go extinct. I mean I want more for her, but this is enough.

Hating a character is different to wanting them to be a villain. 

 

Hating a character is wishing death on them. Wanting them to be a villain because they would make a good bad guy is not hate. 

 

Actually in the books:

Spoiler

It definitively wasn't his arrow that killed her.  He could tell by the fletching when morning came and he identified her body.  That was actually a small bit of cofort to him:  He did betray her, but it wan't his hand that killed her

It can be thought though that the Night's Watch is his Lightbringer. 

 

'I am the fire that burns against the cold, I am the sword that brings the dawn.'

[Joseph Warrick]

Had Ned's execution been scheduled for season 5, some wolf would have saved him in the last minute and he would have gallantly rode the wolf towards the sunset. People talk about Ramsay's plot armor but my god, Daenerys.

 

Same for Jon Snow in the previous episode. During the fight with the old looking zombie, there's a couple of moments when the zombie could stab him but instead decided to turn his weapon around and hit him with the non-lethal end. Baaaaarf.

 

Jon Snow is probably going to ride a dragon alongside Daenerys and the third one will get killed and become a white walker.

 

Did I miss something about Bran or is he still hanging in the cave with the tree?

[Cainhurst Crow]

How funny would it be if the season finale is either Euron or Victarion Greyjoy with the dragon horn, blowing it and enslaving the other 2 dragons. Then Season 6 opens with a goddamn flashback sequence to explain who the hell the Ironborn guy was who just got 2 dragons. Like, the entire primer episode is nothing but Ironborn backtracking and retconing to be like "Behind the scenes: This Happened!"

[Bison]

Had Ned's execution been scheduled for season 5, some wolf would have saved him in the last minute and he would have gallantly rode the wolf towards the sunset.

 

People talk about Ramsay's plot armor but my god, Daenerys.

 

Same for Jon Snow in the previous episode. During the fight with the old looking zombie, there's a couple of moments when the zombie could stab him but instead decided to turn his weapon around and hit him with the non-lethal end. Baaaaarf.

I took less issue with him battering him with his staff, because maybe the Walker realised that Jon was more capable than the Thenn dude so he didn't want to take chances by opening up between a stab, in close combat like that, sword beats the spear. 

 

I got annoyed when the Walker was throwing him though. Like when Jon was looking for the glass, would've been easy if the Walker stabbed Jon. 

[Dermain]

Had Ned's execution been scheduled for season 5, some wolf would have saved him in the last minute and he would have gallantly rode the wolf towards the sunset. People talk about Ramsay's plot armor but my god, Daenerys.

 

Same for Jon Snow in the previous episode. During the fight with the old looking zombie, there's a couple of moments when the zombie could stab him but instead decided to turn his weapon around and hit him with the non-lethal end. Baaaaarf.

 

Jon Snow is probably going to ride a dragon alongside Daenerys and the third one will get killed and become a white walker.

 

Did I miss something about Bran or is he still hanging in the cave with the tree?

 

There were too many points in that fight were I thought the Walker was definitely going to kill Jon, but for whatever reason it didn't.

 

It's extremely jarring after watching how easily it dealt with the Thenn.

[Rawgrim]

Yeah. It also feels like they're alienating the book fans a bit, like how good the Unsullied are. 

 

Or how dragons can't be pierced very easily at all. 

 

Or that White Walkers are meant to be disdained by fire, not able to extinguish it just by walking past it.

 

Also their armor seems to be part of their body, or completely useless. Since Jon Snow just killed one by swinging his sword right into his armoured body. Despite what  Jorah says about armours and how they work in an episode some seasons ago.

[AlanC9]

Did I miss something about Bran or is he still hanging in the cave with the tree?

No Bran this season; last year they got too far ahead of the books.

[Volourn]

Funny, people claim Stannis burned his 'beloved' daughter for his men. The same men he has BURNED, MURDERED, and STARVED TO DEATH becasuse of his evil, idiocy, brainwashing, and his utter devotion to a crazy 'prophecy'; by some obvious diabolical witch priest of a demon god.

 

People point to the fact she opposes the Ice Walkers as her being 'good'. But, could it be even simpler. Her God is a Being of Fire.. so it opposes the 'God' of Ice. Fire and Ice. The enemy. Evil vs evil.

 

How can anyone pretend she (or Stannis) are moral  human beings when they are clearly not.

 

When the Stannis crazy wife broke down  and didn't want to got through with it... seriously, how can you be considered 'good' or 'honourbale' when your crazy wife who keeps fetuses in jars has more comapssion for your dead daughter. That is some sick twisted spin.

 

I give them props. This season, they almost had me go full pro Stannis... but, nope, EPIC FAIL. He is a coward, inhuman, power hungry piece of crap.

 

\Also,  did I REALLY hear that  Castle Black was only a few days away? COME ON.

[Rawgrim]

I still don't see how it isn't wishful thinking; that "could" doesn't mean anything.

 

Benioff's pretty explicit; this is GRRM's plan:
 

(Transcription courtesy of Salon.)

I don't see any rational basis for thinking that the books are going to have Stannis end up anywhere but where the series has put him.

 

Shireen being burned could very well happen in the books. But it won't be Stannis that does it. Stannis is just about to attack Winterfell. Melisandre and Shireen are at The Wall. Stannis isn't turning back anytime soon either.

[Rawgrim]

Funny, people claim Stannis burned his 'beloved' daughter for his men. The same men he has BURNED, MURDERED, and STARVED TO DEATH becasuse of his evil, idiocy, brainwashing, and his utter devotion to a crazy 'prophecy'; by some obvious diabolical witch priest of a demon god.

 

People point to the fact she opposes the Ice Walkers as her being 'good'. But, could it be even simpler. Her God is a Being of Fire.. so it opposes the 'God' of Ice. Fire and Ice. The enemy. Evil vs evil.

 

How can anyone pretend she (or Stannis) are moral  human beings when they are clearly not.

 

When the Stannis crazy wife broke down  and didn't want to got through with it... seriously, how can you be considered 'good' or 'honourbale' when your crazy wife who keeps fetuses in jars has more comapssion for your dead daughter. That is some sick twisted spin.

 

I give them props. This season, they almost had me go full pro Stannis... but, nope, EPIC FAIL. He is a coward, inhuman, power hungry piece of crap.

 

\Also,  did I REALLY hear that  Castle Black was only a few days away? COME ON.

 

The showrunners have really messed up the time\distance this season. Littlefingers travels from Winterfell to KL in less than a day it seems. It took months for Robert and Cersei etc to reach Winterfell from KL in season 1.

 

So this means Brienne and Podrick has just been sitting on a hll for several months, watching Winterfell.

[AlanC9]

Shireen being burned could very well happen in the books. But it won't be Stannis that does it. Stannis is just about to attack Winterfell. Melisandre and Shireen are at The Wall. Stannis isn't turning back anytime soon either.

I don't see how you got to the conclusion that Stannis won't order Shireen's death. Stannis not burning Shireen to be able to attack Winterfell doesn't mean that he won't burn her to accomplish some other thing.

[TheRealJayDee]

Shireen being burned alive is horrible no matter when or where it happens. But as the others said, at this there is practically no way book-Stannis has a chance to even voice an opinion on the matter. Which makes little difference for Shireen, but a whole damn lot of difference for Stannis. 

[Rawgrim]

Stannis not burning Shireen to be able to attack Winterfell doesn't mean that he won't burn her to accomplish some other thing.

 

I know. But I doubt he will burn his only heir. What is the point of getting the throne if you have no heirs?

 

Given how far into the story the books are, there really isn't any time for Shireen to join up with her dad anymore either.

 

Shireen probably burns to bring someone back from the dead in the books...

[TheRealJayDee]

I don't see how you got to the conclusion that Stannis won't order Shireen's death. Stannis not burning Shireen to be able to attack Winterfell doesn't mean that he won't burn her to accomplish some other thing.

And should that happen book-Stannis would become a character fucked up beyond any hope for redemption as well. HBO-Stannis already has become that.

[Jester]

The showrunners have really messed up the time\distance this season. Littlefingers travels from Winterfell to KL in less than a day it seems. It took months for Robert and Cersei etc to reach Winterfell from KL in season 1.

 

So this means Brienne and Podrick has just been sitting on a hll for several months, watching Winterfell.

You need to consider the fact, that Robert was travelling with a ton of his men, entire Kingsguard, Cersei travelling by a slow ass carriage and taking breaks all the time. (Like Robert going hunting in the middle of the trip). 

Littlefinger was definately moving with more haste. 

 

And I don't think it took the several months either. Wasn't it more like several weeks at the most?

[Iakus]

I know. But I doubt he will burn his only heir. What is the point of getting the throne if you have no heirs?

 

Especially since he left instructions that, should he die at Winterfell, his followers are to continue the fight and put Shireen on the Iron Throne.

[Rawgrim]

This is just another case of the show runners going 180 on things they have established in earlier episodes.

 

01. The Unsullied. We were told they were top dogs when it came to fighting. They also had short swords. Swords are gone as are their fighting skills.

02. Stannis going 180 in the last episode.

03. The wights\zombies. Established and shown in season 1-2 that they don't make any sounds, and that only fire can kill them. Now they are screaming skeletons that can be killed by whacking them with clubs.

04. Lady Stoneheart ditched, despite 1 hour of season 3 was spent setting it up.

05. The Tycha story. Established in season 1. Tyrion just seems to ignore it later.

 

 

The show writers, after the Red Wedding, has placed the story on second base, and the shock value on first base. It is all about building up the shock moments now, and the writing and the story is suffering for it.

[AlanC9]

And should that happen book-Stannis would become a character fucked up beyond any hope for redemption as well. HBO-Stannis already has become that.

They're the same character. Get used to it.

[Rawgrim]

You need to consider the fact, that Robert was travelling with a ton of his men, entire Kingsguard, Cersei travelling by a slow ass carriage and taking breaks all the time. (Like Robert going hunting in the middle of the trip). 

Littlefinger was definately moving with more haste. 

 

And I don't think it took the several months either. Wasn't it more like several weeks at the most?

 

Cersei said they had been on the road for months when she arrived at Winterfell.

[TheClonesLegacy]

I guess he could institute a democracy after he gets the Iron Throne. But I doubt it.

[Il Divo]

I know. But I doubt he will burn his only heir. What is the point of getting the throne if you have no heirs?

 

 

In this case, I don't see why that should be a concern. Stannis' whole claim to the Throne is based around the idea of it being his by law, not about his legacy (aka Tywin). If he never had a child born to him in the first place given similar circumstances, he'd still demand the Throne by virtue of blood right. 

 

Not to mention, in Season 2 when parleying with Renly, he offers to make him his heir until a son is born to him. It doesn't seem like Shireen is a factor at all in terms of heirs. 

[Rawgrim]

Especially since he left instructions that, should he die at Winterfell, his followers are to continue the fight and put Shireen on the Iron Throne.

 

Exactly.