11084 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Had Ned's execution been scheduled for season 5, some wolf would have saved him in the last minute and he would have gallantly rode the wolf towards the sunset. People talk about Ramsay's plot armor but my god, Daenerys.

 

 

 

Daenerys riding a dragon at some point should be expected from most people who've read the books, since that is what the Targaryens did when they still had dragons. Aegon the Conqueror conquered Westeros from the back of a dragon. The Dance of Dragons that Shireen was speaking to her her father about in last night's episode was a historical period of Westeros when rival Targaryen claimants vied for the Iron Throne, and Westeros was torn apart by civil war. The rival claimants fought from the backs of dragons, giving the conflict its name.

 

There is going to be more dragon riding.

[Rawgrim]

In this case, I don't see why that should be a concern. Stannis' whole claim to the Throne is based around the idea of it being his by law, not about his legacy (aka Tywin). If he never had a child born to him in the first place given similar circumstances, he'd still demand the Throne by virtue of blood right. 

 

Not to mention, in Season 2 when parleying with Renly, he offers to make him his heir until a son is born to him. It doesn't seem like Shireen is a factor at all in terms of heirs. 

 

That scene actually shows Stannis bing reasonable. He gives Renly more than a fair offer in that scene.

 

Shireen being made heir later is more of an exception to the rule. Women aren't allowed to rule in Westeros. So I think that factors in. Stannis makes her his heir only after there are no other alternatives.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Thats what makes this decision so goddamn weird. Why would he tell Massey what he told him, if he didn't care about Shireen at all, or cared about her so little as to sacrifice her first, before attempting to march through the blizzard and tough it out. In the books at least, his men are nearly all dead as Stannis refuses to make any sacrifices, and they've yet to actually make it to Winterfell. They've gotten other places liberated or conquered already though in the north. You can see the fatigue and desperation, and you could understand somewhat in the show why he did what he did, if they went this route.

 

In the show however, it makes it seem like Stannis's first call when the going gets even remotely tough is to kill Shireen. Which raises a bigger question, why the hell did he bring her along on the dangerous seige in the first place? It makes it seem like he was always planning to kill her, which just makes the entire thing all the worse.

[Rawgrim]

Thats what makes this decision so goddamn weird. Why would he tell Massey what he told him, if he didn't care about Shireen at all, or cared about her so little as to sacrifice her first, before attempting to march through the blizzard and tough it out. In the books at least, his men are nearly all dead as Stannis refuses to make any sacrifices, and they've yet to actually make it to Winterfell. They've gotten other places liberated or conquered already though in the north. You can see the fatigue and desperation, and you could understand somewhat in the show why he did what he did, if they went this route.

 

In the show however, it makes it seem like Stannis's first call when the going gets even remotely tough is to kill Shireen. Which raises a bigger question, why the hell did he bring her along on the dangerous seige in the first place? It makes it seem like he was always planning to kill her, which just makes the entire thing all the worse.

 

The preview for the next episode shows the snow melting, though. So the sacrifice "worked". But yeah. It was weird.

 

I am 99 percent sure Melisandre and Selyse burns Shireen in the next book, without Stannis say so.

[Dark Helmet]

That scene actually shows Stannis bing reasonable. He gives Renly more than a fair offer in that scene.

 

Shireen being made heir later is more of an exception to the rule. Women aren't allowed to rule in Westeros. So I think that factors in. Stannis makes her his heir only after there are no other alternatives.

 

Actually women can rule in Westros provided they have no male relatives. Shireen would have been the last Baratheon after Stannis died so she'd be his heir by default.

 

There are a few instances of that in the books Lady Hornwood *it doesn't end well* for example. And in the show Bronn's would be wife's sister will inherit because the Stokeworth's don't have a son.

[Il Divo]

That scene actually shows Stannis bing reasonable. He gives Renly more than a fair offer in that scene.

 

Shireen being made heir later is more of an exception to the rule. Women aren't allowed to rule in Westeros. So I think that factors in. Stannis makes her his heir only after there are no other alternatives.

 

Sure, reasonable, while also plotting Renly's murder via shadow demons. It was a no cost situation. Renly bends the knee, Stannis gets the whole host, and doesn't have to kill his brother. His opportunity cost is merely a day to think about. Although, if I recall, Stannis doesn't exactly give him until dawn to actually come to a decision. So he may very well have been full of lies regarding that "offer". 

 

My point regarding Shireen is that saying "you never burn your only heir" is nonsensical in the context of Stannis. As I said: his concern for claiming the Throne is entirely related to it being his by right. A childless Stannis would still have done the exact same thing. And from that Renly conversation, it's clear he does consider a son to be in the cards at some point, regardless of how unfeasible that actually is. 

[Rawgrim]

Actually women can rule in Westros provided they have no male relatives. Shireen would have been the last Baratheon after Stannis died so she'd be his heir by default.

 

There are a few instances of that in the books Lady Hornwood *it doesn't end well* for example.

 

You are right. My bad. My point still stands, though. Stannis wouldn't have done that.

[Il Divo]

 

In the show however, it makes it seem like Stannis's first call when the going gets even remotely tough is to kill Shireen. Which raises a bigger question, why the hell did he bring her along on the dangerous seige in the first place? It makes it seem like he was always planning to kill her, which just makes the entire thing all the worse.

 

Bringing Shireen I thought was non-sensical in the first place. I was also a bit skeptical of ninja-Ramsay pulling off the stunt under the excuse of "northerns know the terrain better". I don't think that really excuses sneaking in without anyone seeing. 

 

But as much as we might want to divert the issue, I'm still waiting on this magic solution for how Stannis gets out of his predicament. His army is fractured, has no supplies, and is suffering from desertion in the middle of a Blizzard. Retreat (as per the Blackwater) will end his campaign for the crown. I really want to know about this back up plan people seem to know about that has yet to surface, because I've got nothing. A few days in the snow under those conditions and you can kiss the campaign good-bye. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

I am 99 percent sure Melisandre and Selyse burns Shireen in the next book, without Stannis say so.

Which is far more likely than whatever you call what we just saw in the show.

 

For seasons now the show writers have been trying to portray Stannis in a worse light than the books do. It was painfully obvious when they decided to burn those people back on Dragonstone "because infidels" versus how that lord went behind Stannis' back to make a deal with Tywin. Why do they do this? I don't know but I have a whole lot of theories, none of them polite.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Bringing Shireen I thought was non-sensical in the first place. I was also a bit skeptical of ninja-Ramsay pulling off the stunt under the excuse of "northerns know the terrain better". I don't think that really excuses sneaking in

 

But as much as we might want to divert the issue, I'm still waiting on this magic solution for how Stannis gets out of his predicament. His army is fractured, has no supplies, and is suffering from desertion in the middle of a Blizzard. Retreat (as per the Blackwater) will end his campaign for the crown. I really want to know about this back up plan people seem to know about that has yet to surface, because I've got nothing. A few days in the snow under those conditions and you can kiss the campaign good-bye. 

 

I think his men are suddenly going to get a massive plot armor buff, thus being able to storm winterfell and take it through the cold as if it were a warm summers day.

[Iakus]

Bringing Shireen I thought was non-sensical in the first place. I was also a bit skeptical of ninja-Ramsay pulling off the stunt under the excuse of "northerns know the terrain better". I don't think that really excuses sneaking in without anyone seeing. 

 

Especially interesting given at this point in the book he's got the Glovers, Mormonts, and I believe Umbers backing him.  ALl northern houses who should "know the terrain better"

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't know how much of this is supposed to be a canon insight into his motives but this particular video seems to highlight why this is so out of character. He has a legitimate claim to the throne by all the rights and law of Westeros. The same exact rights that he admits that Aerys had legitimate right to rule by. By the laws of Westeros he was bound to follow him, but the reason that he joined Robert is because blood trumps honor. Wouldn't not murdering your own daughter also fall under the "deeper older laws?"

 

[Il Divo]

I don't know how much of this is supposed to be a canon insight into his motives but this particular video seems to highlight why this is so out of character. He has a legitimate claim to the throne by all the rights and law of Westeros. The same exact rights that he admits that Aerys had legitimate right to rule. By the laws of Westeros he was bound to follow him, but the reason that he joined Robert is because blood trumps honor. 

 

 

Shouldn't that work as a defense against Renly's murder? 

 

This was brought up earlier in the thread, but I don't think agrievances make kin slaying and breaking guest right to be acceptable actions, under any circumstances. Even Renly, in opposition to his brother, doesn't strike me as the type to murder Stannis in cold blood, but it's been a while since I've read the books. 

[Malanek]

Which is far more likely than whatever you call what we just saw in the show.

 

For seasons now the show writers have been trying to portray Stannis in a worse light than the books do. It was painfully obvious when they decided to burn those people back on Dragonstone "because infidels" versus how that lord went behind Stannis' back to make a deal with Tywin. Why do they do this? I don't know but I have a whole lot of theories, none of them polite.

I don't think Stannis will burn Shireen (it will be mel) but I don't agree with the bolded bit. If anything he was darker in the books until this burning. He would have burned Mance Rayders son and probably Edric Sand, both kids who don't exist in the show who were saved by Jon and Davos respectively.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Did anyone find Selyse moment wierd as hell? She's shown to be even crazier about burning people than Stannis and suddenly she's getting all sad about it even though she and Shireen have no single good moment but Stannis is the one all stone-faced about it.

 

After how Selyse acted throughout the whole show and how she treated Shireen, I thought she would be the one pushing Stannis to do it.

[Iakus]

I don't think Stannis will burn Shireen (it will be mel) but I don't agree with the bolded bit. If anything he was darker in the books until this burning. He would have burned Mance Rayders son and probably Edric Sand, both kids who don't exist in the show who were saved by Jon and Davos respectively.

Yup in the books

 

Spoiler

Jon sent Maester Aemon and Rayder's son with Samwell and Gilly to the Citadel for their own safety

 

Aemon died on the way...

 

THough I don't recall if it was specifically to keep them safe from Stannis, or Melisandre.

[AlanC9]

In this case, I don't see why that should be a concern. Stannis' whole claim to the Throne is based around the idea of it being his by law, not about his legacy (aka Tywin). If he never had a child born to him in the first place given similar circumstances, he'd still demand the Throne by virtue of blood right.

Not to mention, in Season 2 when parleying with Renly, he offers to make him his heir until a son is born to him. It doesn't seem like Shireen is a factor at all in terms of heirs.

Note that Stannis is quite capable of siring more heirs. I suppose he'd need a new wife, though.

[Bison]

I know. But I doubt he will burn his only heir. What is the point of getting the throne if you have no heirs?

 

Given how far into the story the books are, there really isn't any time for Shireen to join up with her dad anymore either.

 

Shireen probably burns to bring someone back from the dead in the books...

If he has to, he'll adopt a child. Or maybe legitimise Edric/Gendry. **** he could even legitimise Mya Stone. 

[Bison]

Unlikely, since the birth of the shadows took a lot of life from him, I doubt he can sire anymore. 

[AlanC9]

I am 99 percent sure Melisandre and Selyse burns Shireen in the next book, without Stannis say so.

Care to put money on it? Say, 20 USD?

[Bison]

Yup in the books

 

Spoiler

Jon sent Maester Aemon and Rayder's son with Samwell and Gilly to the Citadel for their own safety

 

Aemon died on the way...

 

THough I don't recall if it was specifically to keep them safe from Stannis, or Melisandre.

Rayder's son was sent to be saved, as well as Aemon, there's no other reason for Aemon to go south again. 

[Dovahzeymahlkey]

is anyone else wierded out that the dragon princess girl is technically 14yrs old according to the story - even though shes played by an adult actress - and that old dude still wants to be inside her?

[Isichar]

My opinion of Stannis has dropped significantly this last episode

 

Spoiler

Serving the realm? Bullshit he just feels entitled. I suppose to some extent he always has been but I sort of thought he had a bit more to him then this. There's literally no one and nothing he wouldn't sacrifice and no line he wouldn't cross to get it. And why is him being king so important he needs to destroy so many lives? More entitlement. The fanatical whisper in his ears have taken over and he just follows them blindly as long as it will get him what he wants most.

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

is anyone else wierded out that the dragon princess girl is technically 14yrs old according to the story - even though shes played by an adult actress - and that old dude still wants to be inside her?

 

She's older in the show. Same with Jon, Robb, so on. 

[Bison]

is anyone else wierded out that the dragon princess girl is technically 14yrs old according to the story - even though shes played by an adult actress - and that old dude still wants to be inside her?

16 at time of ADWD, so about 15 when Jorah started wanted that puss. 

 

Age seems to matter much, much less in this world of ice and fire.