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[TheBlackBaron]

Winter lasts for decades or more in Westeros, though.
 
I have a sneakns suspicion the Children of the Forest are using the WW to take back their own land. They ruled Westeros before human popped up and messed things up.

It depends on how much stock you place in the Last Hero legend, but supposedly the COTF fought alongside the First Men to defeat the Others the last time around.

As for the oft-repeated question of why Stannis doesn't just park his army at the Wall - Stannis' army at this point consists of a small core of Southron nobility, sellswords, and Northern mountain clans who have only sworn to follow him because they want the Boltons out and "Ned's little girl" rescued. The sellswords have to be paid. The Northerners won't stick around for long unless given reason to (and as much as we all love the North, currently they're focused on their own little slice of the Game of Thrones to the detriment of the real war against the White Walkers, just as the southerners are). The Night's Watch certainly doesn't have enough food to feed all of them, and they can't exactly start mass agriculture in the Gift with the wildlings at the moment. This is all pretty transparently spelled out in the books.

Stannis has one way forward - march or die. And if Jon hadn't been around to tell him attacking the Dreadfort head on was suicide and that gathering the clans and going through Deepwood Motte was a better plan, he might have done just the latter. And the theoretical conspiracy among the Northern lords to make Jon their King would be stillborn.
 

Is the love affair so strong that Stannis could literally do anything and people would still support him?

Show!Daenarys fed a Great Master to her two remaining dragons based on zero evidence because she was mad. Renly was proposing that succession in Westeros should thereafter be settled by "I have the most swords". I don't need to get into what the Lannisters have done.

And yet, people to this day claim Renly would have been a great king, adore Jaime, laud Tywin's pragmatism, and flat worship "Khaleesi". Oh, and Tyrion's a kinslayer.

[Rawgrim]

"Maybe Stannis proclaimed himself king"

 

Proclaiming one's sele king doesn't make it so nor does it makes others follow you.

 

Jamie Lannister had a choice - side with his crazy king as was his so called 'duty' or murder his family. He made the correct choice.

 

 

\"Taking Winterfell from the Boltons he can unite a split North."

 

The North will not side with him for long. Stark worshippers likely aren't big fans of kinslayers or crazy fire cults.  L0L

 

 

Why do people continue to make excuses and justify Stannis' evil behaviour? That kind of nonsense would be called out if some other psycho did it. Is the love affair so strong that Stannis could literally do anything and people would still support him? COME ON.

 

He's not doing this for Westeros, the Ream or anything else. He is doing it for his own seflish self. All because he is so bitter over not being the Popular Brother. LMAO

 

 

Excuses isn't the same as explanations.

 

If you watched the previous seasons you might notice that Stannis sees the Winterfell battle in the flames. And he knows the world is doomed if he loses that battle.

[Rawgrim]

It depends on how much stock you place in the Last Hero legend, but supposedly the COTF fought alongside the First Men to defeat the Others the last time around.

As for the oft-repeated question of why Stannis doesn't just park his army at the Wall - Stannis' army at this point consists of a small core of Southron nobility, sellswords, and Northern mountain clans who have only sworn to follow him because they want the Boltons out and "Ned's little girl" rescued. The sellswords have to be paid. The Northerners won't stick around for long unless given reason to (and as much as we all love the North, currently they're focused on their own little slice of the Game of Thrones to the detriment of the real war against the White Walkers, just as the southerners are). The Night's Watch certainly doesn't have enough food to feed all of them, and they can't exactly start mass agriculture in the Gift with the wildlings at the moment. This is all pretty transparently spelled out in the books.

Stannis has one way forward - march or die. And if Jon hadn't been around to tell him attacking the Dreadfort head on was suicide and that gathering the clans and going through Deepwood Motte was a better plan, he might have done just the latter. And the theoretical conspiracy among the Northern lords to make Jon their King would be stillborn.

 

This is where the show writers have screwed up quite a bit. They should have shown Stannis getting the mountain clans, and let Stannis know Sansa is at Winterfell. Their lack of attention to details isn't doing the show any good at the moment.

[Lulupab]

Show!Daenarys fed a Great Master to her two remaining dragons based on zero evidence because she was mad. Renly was proposing that succession in Westeros should thereafter be settled by "I have the most swords". I don't need to get into what the Lannisters have done.

And yet, people to this day claim Renly would have been a great king, adore Jaime, laud Tywin's pragmatism, and flat worship "Khaleesi". Oh, and Tyrion's a kinslayer.

 

I think the issue here is people like Renly were greatly loved by the people, that is why he had "most swords". Any skills they lacked in comparison to Stannis could have been easily rectified with advisers, counsel etc... But Stannis's ruthlessness cannot be "fixed" and he has promised to make red worship official as well. With his traits and promises, I don't see satisfied people, nor a good kingdom. Stannis is the guy you put in charge of war adviser when someone like Renly is king, that way you get to have best of both worlds. Not that its possible now, but it would be a good outcome nonetheless.

[Rawgrim]

Renly only tried to be king because his lover said he would be a good one during a pillow-talk, though. The fellow was a nice guy, but pretty useless. Him proclaiming himself king was an act of treason. Plain and simple.

[Sjpelke]

The battle that led to the wall being build had their armies that contained the races living in the world back then. Power has shifted towards men over time but the thread from back then is making another push towards conquering the world now that winter is coming.

 

Powers of old are using the race that is dominantly present at the moment, mankind, to reach their personal goal.

 

And there are the ones that are not busy with the coming thread from the north but are playing their own policital games to keep their current power and sustain their lives. The Boltons are not busy with white walkers for example. Their only concern is keeping the land for themselves which will be overrun soon probably by the white walker army of the dead. Stannis marches towards the wall to defeat what comes from behind there to oblige to the 'god' he follows and whose face is Mellisandre.

 

Fighting and thinning out their own numbers by fighting among themselves works as a disadvantage in the end. The white walkers are not invulnerable and the previous battle was won due to the dragon glass and maybe change of season (winter leaving). Since the undead army will be replenished by every dead falling on the other side, killing the white walkers who raise them is the only way to stop them.

The only way for the white walkers to stop increasing their army number is to burn the dead and not leaving something to raise.

 

Forging dragon steel and find dragon glass to have weapons that are suited to stand against the white walkers is the best course of action it seems.

 

Besides uniting the men who are busy protecting their own patch of land and deciding who will lead the army that will march towards what threatens the world as a whole oc .

[TheBlackBaron]

I think the issue here is people like Renly were greatly loved by the people, that is why he had "most swords". Any skills they lacked in comparison to Stannis could have been easily rectified with advisers, counsel etc... But Stannis's ruthlessness cannot be "fixed" and he has promised to make red worship official as well. With his traits and promises, I don't see satisfied people, nor a good kingdom. Stannis is the guy you put in charge of war adviser when someone like Renly is king, that way you get to have best of both worlds. Not that its possible, but it would be a good outcome nonetheless.

While this is true, simply being beloved and charismatic doesn't equate to a good leader, even in a feudal system. While you can alleviate that somewhat with good advisers and delegation (I don't think it's a coincidence that early in Aery's reign his main strength was that he was charming and handsome but also vain and leaned on Tywin for most of the governance of the realm - that sounds an awful lot like Renly), Bobby B had good counsel and a strong Hand in Jon Arryn and then it all went ****** up when he died.

More to the point, though, Renly basically upends the entire system of primogeniture for his own ends. Primogeniture was developed, in part, to ensure that land and thus power passed in a neat and easily predictable way, from father to son. Having just gone through this with Robert's Rebellion, Renly taking the throne this way would essentially have guaranteed civil war or at least bloodshed between competing throne claimants as they tried to marshal their support every time the incumbent King died. It's a deeply, deeply, destabilizing move, and if Stannis wants the throne because he's "selfish" or "ambitious", then Renly is doubly so.

This is why Mannis supports go on about "The One True King". By law, Robert has no trueborn heirs of his body, and so the throne should pass to his next eldest brother. It is The Law. Everybody else is just a pretender.

[Volourn]

"And yet, people to this day claim Renly would have been a great king,"

 

Better than Stannis.

 

"adore Jaime,"

 

As a Jaime 'fan' he is no angel. He did attempt to murder a little boy and di rape the woman he 'loved'. I make no excuses. Jaime is not a good guy.

 

"laud Tywin's pragmatism,"

 

Not o me. He's a terrible father  and an overrated leader.

 

"and flat worship "Khaleesi"

 

Khaleesi has LOTS of people who dislike her and people don't make excuses for her.

 

 

". Oh, and Tyrion's a kinslayer"

 

Tyrion did not kill an innocent little girl. He killed an abusive father who had just sentenced him, an innocent man, to death knowing full well he was not guilty of the crime he was accused of. Again, NOT the same as murdering an innocent little child that is your 'precious' duaghter.

 

Stannis fans should just own it. Stannis is as power hungry as all the other would be kings and power brokers. He is not doing this foor a good cause. He is doing it for himself - damn anyone else.

 

 

"This is why Mannis supports go on about "The One True King". By law, Robert has no trueborn heirs of his body, and so the throne should pass to his next eldest brother. It is The Law. Everybody else is just a pretender"

 

\By the law, Stannis should have sided with the Targareyns... yet he fought for his brother. Why? FAMILY. BLOOD. HONOUR. IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

 

Why is he a flip flopper? L0LZ

[Lulupab]

Renly only tried to be king because his lover said he would be a good one during a pillow-talk, though. The fellow was a nice guy, but pretty useless. Him proclaiming himself king was an act of treason. Plain and simple.

 

The Tyrells were going to fully support him and he would have beaten Stannis's army quite easily if it wasn't for the demon baby. Robert's rebellion was also a treason to the realm, many still call it War of the Usurper. The stronger wins, there is no "treason". If you want treason you should know that house Baratheon was created and nurtured by Targaryens and Robert's rebellion was the biggest treason of all time which he only did for a girl, and he would have been called an outright usurper if he didn't have Targaryen blood.

[Rawgrim]

The battle that led to the wall being build had their armies that contained the races living in the world back then. Power has shifted towards men over time but the thread from back then is making another push towards conquering the world now that winter is coming.

 

Powers of old are using the race that is dominantly present at the moment, mankind, to reach their personal goal.

 

And there are the ones that are not busy with the coming thread from the north but are playing their own policital games to keep their current power and sustain their lives. The Boltons are not busy with white walkers for example. Their only concern is keeping the land for themselves which will be overrun soon probably by the white walker army of the dead. Stannis marches towards the wall to defeat what comes from behind there to oblige to the 'god' he follows and whose face is Mellisandre.

 

Fighting and thinning out their own numbers by fighting among themselves works as a disadvantage in the end. The white walkers are not invulnerable and the previous battle was won due to the dragon glass and maybe change of season (winter leaving). Since the undead army will be replenished by every dead falling on the other side, killing the white walkers who raise them is the only way to stop them.

The only way for the white walkers to stop increasing their army number is to burn the dead and not leaving something to raise.

 

Forging dragon steel and find dragon glass to have weapons that are suited to stand against the white walkers is the best course of action it seems.

 

Besides uniting the men who are busy protecting their own patch of land and deciding who will lead the army that will march towards what threatens the world as a whole oc .

 

Dragonstone is full of dragonglass, actually.

[Rawgrim]

"And yet, people to this day claim Renly would have been a great king,"

 

Better than Stannis.

 

"adore Jaime,"

 

As a Jaime 'fan' he is no angel. He did attempt to murder a little boy and di rape the woman he 'loved'. I make no excuses. Jaime is not a good guy.

 

"laud Tywin's pragmatism,"

 

Not o me. He's a terrible father  and an overrated leader.

 

"and flat worship "Khaleesi"

 

Khaleesi has LOTS of people who dislike her and people don't make excuses for her.

 

 

". Oh, and Tyrion's a kinslayer"

 

Tyrion did not kill an innocent little girl. He killed an abusive father who had just sentenced him, an innocent man, to death knowing full well he was not guilty of the crime he was accused of. Again, NOT the same as murdering an innocent little child that is your 'precious' duaghter.

 

Stannis fans should just own it. Stannis is as power hungry as all the other would be kings and power brokers. He is not doing this foor a good cause. He is doing it for himself - damn anyone else.

 

 

"This is why Mannis supports go on about "The One True King". By law, Robert has no trueborn heirs of his body, and so the throne should pass to his next eldest brother. It is The Law. Everybody else is just a pretender"

 

\By the law, Stannis should have sided with the Targareyns... yet he fought for his brother. Why? FAMILY. BLOOD. HONOUR. IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

 

Why is he a flip flopper? L0LZ

 

If Stannis is doing it for himself, why did he hire mercenaries and destroy Mance Rayder's army? If he was all about selfish greed for the throne, he could have just sailed into King's Landing and taken the throne right away.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Maybe Stannis proclaimed himself king to be able to order an army around to protect the world from being overrun and conquered by the white walkers?

Sacrificing his own daughter since that was needed according to Mellisandre because his army alone would not be able to do that?

 

In our 'civilized' real world human sacrifices are not done, especially when those are own kin....

Other worlds have other standards and the world of GoT is a melting pot of believes, magic and non magic where people try to survive their own race and what is coming towards them from behind the wall.

 

When it comes to the guerilla attack on Stannis's army that is not so weird. His men are underfed, a lot of them sick, not alarmed since the other battles were preset and basically timed. The nightly attack was done by setting fire to strategical places. Setting fire to food and other supplies leaving them more vulnerable then before.

 

Stannis sees it as his 'job'  to defeat the threat coming from behind the wall, relying on the visions of Mellisandre. The religion/god behind it all is something that would not have a lot of other clans/families follow him since they do not approve of the methods used by it. At least that is my thought on the why and how he fights his way towards his destination which is the north.

 

I wonder why the white walkers want to leave the icy north to conquer the world behind the wall....They need the cold to survive it seems and the winter that is coming makes that able to happen. Once the winter is leaving however they would have to retreat back again to be able to survive. So what is the point?

 

I think during the Long Night, the winter lasted for a generation and only abated when the White Walkers were defeated. So I don't think the White Walkers have to worry about summer as long as they are victorious.

[Sjpelke]

hmmmm......

From what has been shown the white walkers are not that big in numbers. There must be something for them behind the wall that they need desperately.

 

Something else about the white walkers comes to mind. They took the baby boys from the man in the woods that he offered to them to be left alone. Why would they want them? Since they can raise the dead to have an army that they do not need to feed or house to do their battles.

 

Yes, dragonsteel contains dragonglass. Which makes it a weapon suited to fight basically everything that it finds in its way. Also since it is a combination between metal and the rare other ingredient it will be possible to make a lot more of them with less of the seemingly rare dragon glass as sole ingredient.

[Rawgrim]

hmmmm......

From what has been shown the white walkers are not that big in numbers. There must be something for them behind the wall that they need desperately.

 

Something else about the white walkers comes to mind. They took the baby boys from the man in the woods that he offered to them to be left alone. Why would they want them? Since they can raise the dead to have an army that they do not need to feed or house to do their battles.

 

That is how they create new White Walkers. I think there was a scene that showed it happening in season 4.

[Sjpelke]

That is how they create new White Walkers. I think there was a scene that showed it happening in season 4.

 

If that is the case that means they cannot reproduce themselves and are basically humans, transformed into something else. Which means there is someone/something that was not human based from origin that found a way to survive as a species by performing rituals on other races.

 

Since they need babies to do it it seems the adults that are slain in battle are only good to use as an army to do their fighting for them....Maybe they want to invade and conquer the land behind the wall to have a farm where they can get vessels for their species to survive?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That might not be the only way they reproduce. It's not like they could have used Crastor's Keep for very much of their history.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Khaleesi has LOTS of people who dislike her and people don't make excuses for her.

[Ozzy]

Unfortunately we can't really judge how effective or efficient a ruler Renly was because we didn't get the chance to see him in action. We know he was charismatic and well loved but we don't know how he would have ruled or conducted himself in battle because of the shadow baby shenanigans. 

 

The Tyrells were desperate for the throne and figured that Renly was their best option. After all, Renly was already plotting behind the scenes with them and Littlefinger to have Cersei replaced by Margery. When good ol' Bob died, Renly took his place in the proceedings. When Renly died, the Tyrells and Littlefinger improvised.

[Blooddrunk1004]

So is Danny gono become Stoneman now since she touched Jorah's hand?

[Sjpelke]

That might not be the only way they reproduce. It's not like they could have used Crastor's Keep for very much of their history.

 

True, but their previous source might have ceased to exist or became to few and the humans became their next source. Knowing there was an abundance behind the wall to rebuild themselves might have made them try again. The war before that might have been started for the same reason. They lost, thinning out their numbers and made them retreat to rebuild themselves.

 

The wall was build due to the fact that they could not be defeated entirely I suppose. Over time the threat became less since things became quiet (long summers, short winters) and the crows importance became less, lessening their numbers and also the knowledge about what lies behind the wall. Other religions that did not speak of what lives in the north took over, eliminating the things known that might ease the fight against them. The dragon glass being one of the rediscoverd weapons that were known back then to help fight the white walkers. Dragon steel being the weapon men managed to create but the knowledge of the other purpose got lost along the way.

 

Clans and tribes not aware of what lies behind the wall taking over the lands and fighting amongst themselves to gain power and land did not invest in what seemed long past and what they had no knowledge from basically. At least that is what the show shows us at the moment. Awareness about the thread has been seeping in due to the fact that the white walkers conquered the wildling stronghold, expanding their army enormously. That is if Jon Snow will be taken seriously if he decides to talk and try to gather followers/armies to fight alongside of him.

Although Stannis's motives might be questionable, his goals is basically the same; defeating that what tries to invade from behind the wall. At the moment he is the only one with the common goal.

[Lulupab]

So is Danny gono become Stoneman now since she touched Jorah's hand?

 

Quite doubtful.

 

There are excuses that will likely be used:

 

Valyrians were immune to this sickness

 

OR

 

She needs to touch the infected places aka his wrist to get infenced. So his hand doesn't count.

[Addai]

Lawful Neutral doesn't mean burning your daughter at the stake for some special power by a fire god, fyi.
 
Stannis has broken so many laws it is beyond ridiculous - I believe Westeros has laws against murder.

Westeros is like anywhere. The powerful decide what is murder and what's justified killing.
 

He claims to bedoing this for 'good of them realm' but that's self delusion. He is doing it for himself. Plain and simple. EVIL. EVIL TO THE CORE.
 
I was right. I was right all along.

It's an irrelevant question, really. When Stannis and Melisandre play a role in defeating the White Walkers, whether they're good or evil will mean jack all. I can't believe ASoIaF fans are even having this discussion when the whole premise of the books is that good men don't necessarily make good leaders.

[Steelcan]

The Tyrells were going to fully support him and he would have beaten Stannis's army quite easily if it wasn't for the demon baby. Robert's rebellion was also a treason to the realm, many still call it War of the Usurper. The stronger wins, there is no "treason". If you want treason you should know that house Baratheon was created and nurtured by Targaryens and Robert's rebellion was the biggest treason of all time which he only did for a girl, and he would have been called an outright usurper if he didn't have Targaryen blood.

Robert was a usurper, but he did have legitimate claim to the throne through his Targaryen grandmother, nor was it fought only over a girl.  Lyanna's abduction prompted Lord Rickard and Brandon Strark to go to KL to demand justice, they were then executed in a mock trial by combat.  Robert and Ned rose up in rebellion, led by Jon Arryn, after Aerys called for them to be sent to the capitol, and almost certain death, as well.

 

But please go on how horrid they all are and how great the Tyrells are.

[Steelcan]

Besides Dany can't be Euron's salt wife if she's dead of Greyscale

[Dermain]

Quite doubtful.

 

There are excuses that will likely be used:

 

Valyrians were immune to this sickness

 

OR

 

She needs to touch the infected places aka his wrist to get infenced. So his hand doesn't count.

 

From what I recall people do need to touch the infected areas in order to become infected.

 

The reason the ones that attacked Tyrion and Jorah infected Jorah was because greyscale had spread to their entire bodies as well as destroying their minds.