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[Fast Jimmy]

I think the issue here is people like Renly were greatly loved by the people, that is why he had "most swords". Any skills they lacked in comparison to Stannis could have been easily rectified with advisers, counsel etc... But Stannis's ruthlessness cannot be "fixed" and he has promised to make red worship official as well. With his traits and promises, I don't see satisfied people, nor a good kingdom. Stannis is the guy you put in charge of war adviser when someone like Renly is king, that way you get to have best of both worlds. Not that its possible now, but it would be a good outcome nonetheless.

To be fair, I don't see a problem with making Rhllor worship official. After all, he has more demonstrated power than the Seven. The Seven are absent or totally fake gods... at least worship a God that can grant miracles if you perform human sacrifice to them. That's just religious pragmatism 101.

[Lulupab]

Robert was a usurper, but he did have legitimate claim to the throne through his Targaryen grandmother, nor was it fought only over a girl.  Lyanna's abduction prompted Lord Rickard and Brandon Strark to go to KL to demand justice, they were then executed in a mock trial by combat.  Robert and Ned rose up in rebellion, led by Jon Arryn, after Aerys called for them to be sent to the capitol, and almost certain death, as well.

 

But please go on how horrid they all are and how great the Tyrells are.

 

Everything can be justified. They could have simply killed the mad king. They didn't need to kill Rhaegar's wife and their children. They killed every single Targaryen cousin, aunt, uncle etc... So yes they are horrid and hid behind mad king's insanity to justify their actions. Now Karma will bite them so hard, they will be the shortest lived royal family of all time, becoming extinct on 3rd generation. More than deserved.

 

The Tyrells have the lowest kill toll in the lore. So if Tyrells were the wronged party instead of Robert, they would make a coup kill on the mad king and no doubt it would have been successful. Then they would have smiled and went about their business. No genocide, no war, not thousands dead and no rape.

[Lulupab]

To be fair, I don't see a problem with making Rhllor worship official. After all, he has more demonstrated power than the Seven. The Seven are absent or totally fake gods... at least worship a God that can grant miracles if you perform human sacrifice to them. That's just religious pragmatism 101.

 

But its not a welcome religion in Westeros at all, Rhllor is officially known as the red demon. Its like asking Orlesians to worship elven gods because they actually existed in opposed to maker that may or may not exist. People need to accept and recognize it. It will surely cause instability, unless Stannis does not make it the official religion of the realm and simply lifts the taboo on the matter.

[Dark Helmet]

Everything can be justified. They could have simply killed the mad king. They didn't need to kill Rhaegar's wife and their children. They killed every single Targaryen cousin, aunt, uncle etc... So yes they are horrid and hid behind mad king's insanity to justify their actions. Now Karma will bite them so hard, they will be the shortest lived royal family of all time, becoming extinct on 3rd generation. More than deserved.

 

The Tyrells have the lowest kill toll in the lore. So if Tyrells were the wronged party instead of Robert, they would make a coup kill on the mad king and no doubt it would have been successful. Then they would have smiled and went about their business. No genocide, no war, not thousands dead and no rape.

 

...I'm not sure you understand how these things work Lulu.

 

Anyway does your worship of the Tyrells mean you no longer worship Dany Sue?

[HiroVoid]

lol @ the idea Tyrells wouldn't do awful things to keep in power.

[Dark Helmet]

lol @ the idea Tyrells wouldn't do awful things to keep in power.

 

They're totes the nicest house evar!

 

They like flowers and everything!

[daveliam]

Now Karma will bite them so hard, they will be the shortest lived royal family of all time, becoming extinct on 3rd generation. More than deserved.

 

2nd generation, no?  Robert --> Joffrey/Tommen.  Unless you think that Tommen is going to knock up Margaery and that kid will get on the throne too.

 

It will surely cause instability, unless Stannis does not make it the official religion of the realm and simply lifts the taboo on the matter.

 

Stannis will never get close enough to the throne to be able to make this decree.

 

lol @ the idea Tyrells wouldn't do awful things to keep in power.

 

Yeah, isn't Olenna Tyrell a Kingslayer as well?  Just like Jamie?

[Lulupab]

...I'm not sure you understand how these things work Lulu.
 
Anyway does your worship of the Tyrells mean you no longer worship Dany Sue?

 
When it comes to Dany, its process of elimination for me. She simply doesn't get eliminated. 
 

lol @ the idea Tyrells wouldn't do awful things to keep in power.

Awful things? Sure. But the scale of it and in general the bloodshed is always kept to minimum. I'm always fan of these sort of characters and groups. Trying to be honorable and just at first, but if it doesn't work, answering with such cunning that everyone will kneel in shock with little to no bloodshed.

[Fast Jimmy]

But its not a welcome religion in Westeros at all, Rhllor is officially known as the red demon. Its like asking Orlesians to worship elven gods because they actually existed in opposed to maker that may or may not exist. People need to accept and recognize it. It will surely cause instability, unless Stannis does not make it the official religion of the realm and simply lifts the taboo on the matter.

I don't feel that's entirely fair... there's hints at the divinity of the Maker as well. Just like there is support for the (Dragon Age) Old Gods existing. Their power can be observed or called upon, so it seems about equal to me.

The Seven? The Seven don't offer anything but empty temples and hollow doctrine. They would be fine as a religion in our world, where the supernatural never occurs, but in a world where one God answers prayers and another God doesn't, I don't see the attachment.

[Dark Helmet]

I don't feel that's entirely fair... there's hints at the divinity of the Maker as well. Just like there is support for the (Dragon Age) Old Gods existing. Their power can be observed or called upon, so it seems about equal to me.

The Seven? The Seven don't offer anything but empty temples and hollow doctrine. They would be fine as a religion in our world, where the supernatural never occurs, but in a world where one God answers prayers and another God doesn't, I don't see the attachment.

 

I'd take the kind of dickish god that can actually help me over the gods who don't do **** any day of the week.

 

Let the good times roll burnings commence!

[mousestalker]

They're totes the nicest house evar!
 
They like flowers and everything!

They are totes adorbz. If only Tommen would stop listening to Mumsy and rescue his wife from the bird king.



Plus Diana Rigg > all other actors in the show.

[HiroVoid]

Screw Margaery!  She doesn't help Mira at all!

[Iakus]

Robert was a usurper, but he did have legitimate claim to the throne through his Targaryen grandmother, nor was it fought only over a girl.  Lyanna's abduction prompted Lord Rickard and Brandon Strark to go to KL to demand justice, they were then executed in a mock trial by combat.  Robert and Ned rose up in rebellion, led by Jon Arryn, after Aerys called for them to be sent to the capitol, and almost certain death, as well.

 

But please go on how horrid they all are and how great the Tyrells are.

Even calling it a "mock trial by combat" would be giving it too much credit.  It was an execution worthy of a Saw movie.  

[Iakus]

Everything can be justified. They could have simply killed the mad king. They didn't need to kill Rhaegar's wife and their children. They killed every single Targaryen cousin, aunt, uncle etc... So yes they are horrid and hid behind mad king's insanity to justify their actions. Now Karma will bite them so hard, they will be the shortest lived royal family of all time, becoming extinct on 3rd generation. More than deserved.

 

The Tyrells have the lowest kill toll in the lore. So if Tyrells were the wronged party instead of Robert, they would make a coup kill on the mad king and no doubt it would have been successful. Then they would have smiled and went about their business. No genocide, no war, not thousands dead and no rape.

 

Rhaegar is the one who kicked off everything by kidnapping Lyanna (granted it is quite likely she went willingly)  But yes, aside from he and Aerys, the rest of the family was innocent.  

 

But keep in mind, it was the Lannisters who sacked King's Landing in what was likely a coup attempt by Tywin.

[God]

Everything can be justified. They could have simply killed the mad king. They didn't need to kill Rhaegar's wife and their children. They killed every single Targaryen cousin, aunt, uncle etc... So yes they are horrid and hid behind mad king's insanity to justify their actions. Now Karma will bite them so hard, they will be the shortest lived royal family of all time, becoming extinct on 3rd generation. More than deserved.

 

The Tyrells have the lowest kill toll in the lore. So if Tyrells were the wronged party instead of Robert, they would make a coup kill on the mad king and no doubt it would have been successful. Then they would have smiled and went about their business. No genocide, no war, not thousands dead and no rape.

 

1) That was Tywin Lannister. You're literally blaming Robert and Ned for actions that Tywin's forces (who the Mad King thought was coming to save him) did. Tywin acted of his own accord, and voluntarily made himself out as the monster because 1) he could handle it, and 2) he resolved to show Robert his loyalty while also ensuring that he was accepted by the people and nobility. Robert was on a war of rampage against the Targaryens true, but he had nothing to do with the deaths of the vast majority of them.

 

At this point, I think you can (and should) just leave the thread. It's obvious you're not here to argue in a productive manner, and you're twisting known facts into lies with the intent to promote your own interpretation as the most valid (as goes the case for most threads).

[God]

They're totes the nicest house evar!

 

They like flowers and everything!

 

And they'r totes accepting of gays! Best house evarz!

 

Meanwhile, in rational land 

 

"RENLY IS NOT RIGHT!"

[Fast Jimmy]

Rhaegar is the one who kicked off everything by kidnapping Lyanna (granted it is quite likely she went willingly) But yes, aside from he and Aerys, the rest of the family was innocent.

But keep in mind, it was the Lannisters who sacked King's Landing in what was likely a coup attempt by Tywin.

It REALLY makes me wonder what would have happened if, when asked to get off the Throne, Jaime had just replied "No."

[God]

It REALLY makes me wonder what would have happened if, when asked to get off the Throne, Jaime had just replied "No."

 

King Jaime. 

 

Somehow, I think he might actually make it. 

 

'Goldenhand, they called him. Goldenhand the just'

 

He's one of the few contenders I'd support in lieu of Stannis.

[Han Shot First]

It REALLY makes me wonder what would have happened if, when asked to get off the Throne, Jaime had just replied "No."

 

The Lannisters weren't in the position to seize the throne.

 

The triumvirate of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Ned Stark would have crushed Tywin and executed Jaime. His reign would likely not have lasted the year. The Lannister's best hand was the one Tywin played: Marrying Cersei to the new king.

[Lulupab]

1) That was Tywin Lannister. You're literally blaming Robert and Ned for actions that Tywin's forces (who the Mad King thought was coming to save him) did. Tywin acted of his own accord, and voluntarily made himself out as the monster because 1) he could handle it, and 2) he resolved to show Robert his loyalty while also ensuring that he was accepted by the people and nobility. Robert was on a war of rampage against the Targaryens true, but he had nothing to do with the deaths of the vast majority of them.

 

At this point, I think you can (and should) just leave the thread. It's obvious you're not here to argue in a productive manner, and you're twisting known facts into lies with the intent to promote your own interpretation as the most valid (as goes the case for most threads).

 

And Robert approved and praised the mass murder of every single Targaryen. He even tossed aside Stannis as a brother just because he failed to kill two kids! aka Viserys and Daenerys. He went nuts when he couldn't kill Daenerys. He told Ned that he wants to see every single Targaryen dead before dying. Its the absolute and pure truth, maybe if you opened your fanboy blinded eyes you would see it.

 

And its Ironic because the first Baratheon was a general of Targaryen army and licked their boots to give him a royal family and a castle and they actually did, even gave him a daughter to marry.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Lannisters weren't in the position to seize the throne.

The triumvirate of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Ned Stark would have crushed Tywin and executed Jaime. His reign would likely not have lasted the year. The Lannister's best hand was the one Tywin played: Marrying Cersei to the new king.

I do not disagree... the Lannisters would have a heap of trouble dealing with the combined might of the North, the Reach and the Stormlands. Especially on the heels of killing Dornish royalty.

Still... even if they failed miserably and all were killed... it would be interesting to see how the events of the world played out without the Lannister family. Almost as interesting as if they were on the Throne themselves.

[God]

And Robert approved and praised the mass murder of every single Targaryen. He even tossed aside Stannis as a brother just because he failed to kill two kids! aka Viserys and Daenerys. He went nuts when he couldn't kill Daenerys. He told Ned that he wants to see every single Targaryen dead before dying. Its the absolute and pure truth, maybe if you opened your fanboy blinded eyes you would see it.

 

And its Ironic because the first Baratheon was a general of Targaryen army and licked their boots to give him a royal family and a castle and they actually did, even gave him a daughter to marry.

 

I never denied that.

 

But you seem to deny what caused Robert to hold that view. And Stannis was going to be tossed aside no matter what he did, because he was Stannis. 

 

And as they say, the truth is never that simple. If you opened fanboy eyes for Dany, maybe you'd see it. Robert cooled off enough to realize that it was senseless to murder the two and eventually called off the assassins.

 

So here we are two fanboys: one is generally acknowledged to be more logical and rational (to a point where he is seen to be a cold-hearted bastard) and utilizes information. The other is seen as a bleeding heart who argues from emotion and feeling. Who's considered more 'right' here?

[Ozzy]

Well, the Lannisters essentially ended up on the throne anyway. In a matter of speaking, of course. They had the crown in their hands to a much more effective degree than they would have had had they tried to seize power directly. 

[Han Shot First]

I do not disagree... the Lannisters would have a heap of trouble dealing with the combined might of the North, the Reach and the Stormlands. Especially on the heels of killing Dornish royalty.

Still... even if they failed miserably and all were killed... it would be interesting to see how the events of the world played out without the Lannister family. Almost as interesting as if they were on the Throne themselves.

 

Tywin and the Lannisters would have lost if just by the sheer power of all the Great Houses arrayed against them, but I wonder if Robert would be as ruthless in eliminating that royal family as he was with the Targaryens? I'm guessing he wouldn't, because Targaryens aside, Robert tended to be fairly magnanimous. Jaime, as the new king, would need to die. Robert couldn't suffer a rival king to survive. But woulld Tywin share the same fate? Robert's unrelenting mercilessness towards the Targaryens always struck me as being as personal as it was pragmatic, and was fueled in part by the rage he still felt over what he viewed as Lyanna's abduction and rape. I think with the Lannisters it would be less personal, and so long as Tywin doesn't fall in battle, he may be allowed to take the black.

 

The Night's King might have had to face Lord Commander Tywin Lannister. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, the Lannisters essentially ended up on the throne anyway. In a matter of speaking, of course. They had the crown in their hands to a much more effective degree than they would have had had they tried to seize power directly.

True. And the last two kings of the Iron Throne have been Baratheon in name only, so it probably worked out best. If only Littlefinger hadn't killed Jon Arryn...