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[Alpha-Centuri]

You can justify something without compassion. I think you are using the term in some sort of vague, cryptic manner. Yes, killing Robert's bastards can be seen as a shrewd, smart move.. Is it compassionate? No. And I don't know any definition where it would legitimately fit.

edit: Noticed you believe that killing infants are compassionate, but killing a wolf was evil. No direct comments to make, but I just wanted to remember that for future reference in the conversation.

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 10 juin 2011 - 06:29 .

[GodWood]

WeRtheBrox wrote...

grimkillah wrote...
Any bastards of Robert is a potential threat to the crown, and thus it must be eradicated. killing them is the compassionate thing to do. If they are allow to live, one day they can raise flag against Joffrey, while other major houses will use them to their own end, and start civil war within the realm of Westeros, a war where thousands will die. Is that the compassionate thing to do? It is far better to kill them now, and remove any challenges to the crown, thus bring stability to the realm.

Wow.
The compassionate thing to do is to murder an infant, because of what could possibly happen as a result of who her father is?  Just... wow.

It's definitely not 'compassionate' but it is practical.
Robert's bastards are a threat to Joffrey and his throne.
By eliminating them she prevents any future enemies and/or uprisings against herself and her child.

Sure it isn't nice but if you haven't noticed Westeros isn't a very nice place.

Addai67 wrote...

As a Lannister fan and a Cercei fan, I lol'd.

Modifié par GodWood, 10 juin 2011 - 07:42 .

[Addai]

I can see where it's possible to be a Cersei fan, if you like the ruthless b*tch type. It's not possible to call her a "good" character, however. That's stretching plausiblity to the lulz territory. Whereas there is no paladin in GRRM's universe, there are definitely characters who are just rotten and nasty people. Cersei is one of them. There's not really room to discuss this without it just being laughable.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 juin 2011 - 04:45 .

[Addai]

Earlier on the poster was saying that Cersei was the only good character in GoT. It still makes me chuckle.

About the bastards, I'm with Ned on this one. Killing children is always beyond the pale no matter what their birth- Targaryen, Baratheon, or whatever. Let the adults play the game of thrones, but leave the kids out of it.

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
About the bastards, I'm with Ned on this one. Killing children is always beyond the pale no matter what their birth- Targaryen, Baratheon, or whatever. Let the adults play the game of thrones, but leave the kids out of it.

Except Joffrey. That little monster can rot.

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
About the bastards, I'm with Ned on this one. Killing children is always beyond the pale no matter what their birth- Targaryen, Baratheon, or whatever. Let the adults play the game of thrones, but leave the kids out of it.

Except Joffrey. That little monster can rot.

Joffrey is old enough and terrible enough that he could be tried as an adult.  But then, he didn't fall far from the tree so in a way it's not his fault.

[Addai]

All fandoms spawn oddities. That's why I don't post at those places. I open up their threads and see people arguing and I just can't handle a whole other set of nerdrage themes.

Some people are just bad. Bad does not equal "not complex." Cersei is complex, she's just a bad seed. I say the same thing when people complain about Rendon Howe being so evil. There really are evil people, there really are people who get off on cruelty or who are so self-absorbed that the suffering of others means nothing to them. I would put Cersei in the latter category.  edit to add:  I don't think Jaime is quite that bad, as later books demonstrate- which is why I like his character and don't like Cersei.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 juin 2011 - 09:34 .

[Seagloom]

grimkillah wrote...

I can't say Jon or Arya are evil, but if someone isn't good, they may not necessarily be bad either. there is not enough situation in which I can form an opinion on these two, and many others. I consider them as neutral, or that they are written more for the future and not the first book. However there are times I disliked Jon. when he first reached the wall, he comes across to me as a major jerk, thinking he was hard done by, when many others are in far less preferred situation than him, only when Tyrion Lannister pointed out the fact to him, had my opinion of him improve. Arya is just a kid, much like Bran, but better than Bran, Bran again suffer the same problem as Jon, when he learned that he couldn't ride or walk again, became a major brat, but again, because of Tyrion's help, I begun to like Bran more. As for trolling, I do hope you don't label anyone who disagree with you as a troll, in fact no one here have yet shown me any evidence in the first book that Cersei is evil, in fact most if not all the thing she done, I approve.

No, I was being facetious. Although I could see how LTD would consider you a troll. Defending Cersei as the sole good character is such an unusual opinion I found it hard to take seriously until reading your other posts.

I suppose I can agree with your nongood definition. That would apply to the majority of ASoIaF's cast. I do disagree disagree on criteria for "neutral" or nongood. Simply acting like a jerk does not a bad person make. Jon could be the most belligerent man in Westeros. What matters is that he tries to do the right thing when he can. Same with Bran. As well, both of them are essentially children in the first book. One can hardly expect children to behave reasonably whenever they do not get their way.

A nongood character would be someone who serves their own interests, but avoids deliberately hurting others to do so. I do think Arya changes considerably as a character in later books. Jon also does a few iffy things. Regardless, I think at least Jon would qualify as good during "A Game of Thrones". Cersei would not. However, since the extent of her plotting is not seen until later, I can understand why you see her that way.

grimkillah wrote...

I will not answer all other spoilers in general since I haven't read them, and does not understand the context in which they occurred. But this one is rather clear. Any bastards of Robert is a potential threat to the crown, and thus it must be eradicated. killing them is the compassionate thing to do. If they are allow to live, one day they can raise flag against Joffrey, while other major houses will use them to their own end, and start civil war within the realm of Westeros, a war where thousands will die. Is that the compassionate thing to do? It is far better to kill them now, and remove any challenges to the crown, thus bring stability to the realm.

I gotta disagree here. Murdering innocent people that are either children or may not be aware of their royal lineage is never compassionate. The compassionate thing to do would be the opposite: leaving them be despite knowing they could threaten your power later. What Cersei does is the height of cold, calculated pragmatism. Nothing compassionate about it.

[TJPags]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

All fandoms spawn oddities. That's why I don't post at those places. I open up their threads and see people arguing and I just can't handle a whole other set of nerdrage themes.

Some people are just bad. Bad does not equal "not complex." Cersei is complex, she's just a bad seed. I say the same thing when people complain about Rendon Howe being so evil. There really are evil people, there really are people who get off on cruelty or who are so self-absorbed that the suffering of others means nothing to them. I would put Cersei in the latter category.  edit to add:  I don't think Jaime is quite that bad, as later books demonstrate- which is why I like his character and don't like Cersei.

I still don't get why people think Cersei's character is complex. The reason why I think she's a poorly written character is because her primary motivation boils down that she wants to save her own skin. I'm not saying that she should have been written so that the audience could have sympathy for her. But the author gives no reason as to why she's the woman that she is as opposed to characters like Theon Greyjoy. In AFFC, it's revealed that she was bad from the start, even before her abusive relationship with Robert. Characters that are bad for the sake of being bad is not at all complex to me. That's why I think her character is shallow and boring.

Oh, Cersei's not complex, not at all, but her primary motivation is not, IMO, to save her own skin - it's to control her own life.

Here she is, born to a powerful house, beautiful, intelligent, ambitious - and she's forced to wed Robert Baratheon.  What she said in the series notwithstanding, it was pretty clear in the book that she wanted no part of that.  The wedding was arranged by her father.  Think about how that must bother her, being unable to control her own destiny, not only about who to wed, but even IF she would get married, and when - and knowing that from an early age.

She wants power, simply so that nobody can tell her what to do - not even her hsuband, even if he is the king.  That's why she rasises Joffrey as she does, so that he will always listen to her, always do what she wants.  Don't think for a moment she wouldn't have disposed of him the same way she did Robert if Joffrey ever stopped listening to her, or treated her poorly.

[Addai]

Capt. Obvious wrote...
I still don't get why people think Cersei's character is complex. The reason why I think she's a poorly written character is because her primary motivation boils down that she wants to save her own skin. I'm not saying that she should have been written so that the audience could have sympathy for her. But the author gives no reason as to why she's the woman that she is as opposed to characters like Theon Greyjoy. In AFFC, it's revealed that she was bad from the start, even before her abusive relationship with Robert. Characters that are bad for the sake of being bad is not at all complex to me. That's why I think her character is shallow and boring.

What more reason do you need for overweening ambition and self-regard than to be born a Lannister?  Why are some people just nasty?  They just are, and they can wreak terrible havoc especially if they have power.  To rule out including such people would make the story less believable.   I consider a complex character to be one who's not one-faceted, and I wouldn't call any of GRRM's characters that.  Cersei loves her children, she loves Jaime, but loves herself most of all and these people as reflections of herself.  How is that not a believable character?  Have you ever watched crime shows and seen the utter self-absorption and entitlement, even in teenagers?  I wish it weren't so realistic. 

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juin 2011 - 01:19 .

[KenKenpachi]

Addai67, TV shows? heh I've seen real people like that. Cersei is complex in a manner, but she's painfully easy to read. One could easily manipulate her, provided they didn't make it apperant.

[Nerevar-as]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Addai67, TV shows? heh I've seen real people like that. Cersei is complex in a manner, but she's painfully easy to read. One could easily manipulate her, provided they didn't make it apperant.

Funny you said that...

[KenKenpachi]

Nerevar-as wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Addai67, TV shows? heh I've seen real people like that. Cersei is complex in a manner, but she's painfully easy to read. One could easily manipulate her, provided they didn't make it apperant.

Funny you said that...

Lulz Spoilers?

[Nerevar-as]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Addai67, TV shows? heh I've seen real people like that. Cersei is complex in a manner, but she's painfully easy to read. One could easily manipulate her, provided they didn't make it apperant.

Funny you said that...

Lulz Spoilers?

A Feast of Crows.

[Brockololly]

Oh boy, I just finished A Storm of Swords for the first time. Wow- I am very much looking forward to how they adapt that for TV. I'm thinking they definitely will need to cut that into 2 seasons though based on how much stuff is crammed in there, otherwise it would seem like events are going a mile a minute and people just dropping like flies. And given how more fantastical stuff and more battles happen, splitting A Storm of Swords into 2 seasons would give them a better budget so they wouldn't have to skimp on certain scenes that should be visually impressive.

But wow...I feel terrible for certain characters and the stuff that's happened to them and want certain other characters to die slow, horrible, painful deaths many times over. Anytime a book can get me that engaged, its a job well done by the author. Damn good book.

[KenKenpachi]

Nerevar-as wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Addai67, TV shows? heh I've seen real people like that. Cersei is complex in a manner, but she's painfully easy to read. One could easily manipulate her, provided they didn't make it apperant.

Funny you said that...

Lulz Spoilers?

A Feast of Crows.

I know what you mean actully. Waiting for the next book myself, I bought the first four at a steal for $20.

[Addai]

Capt. Obvious wrote...
But she was born that way. There was nothing leading up to that point. A character that is "just nasty" doesn't deserve to be called complex. She's believable to a degree, but her character is lacking. 

I suppose I just don't see it as a valid criticism to say it's poorly written if there is one character like this in a book full of characters who do have more mixed motives and progression.  As I said, not only is it realistic, it adds to the drama of the overall story because these characters can wreak terrible havoc and the fun is in waiting to see if they get what's coming to them and trip on their own machinations, or if they succeed in their plots.  It's no fun if there isn't someone you love to hate.

Also, with Cersei, there are moments where I do feel for her, despite all she's done, so I never thought of her as one-note.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juin 2011 - 09:36 .

[Addai]

Tonight's episode is "Baelor."  Awesome preview here.

[Seagloom]

Tonight's episode is going to define badass. I have been looking forward to it all day. Only next week's episode will be more awesome. I can't wait to see Robb's crowning moment of awesome.

[Brockololly]

Seagloom wrote...

Tonight's episode is going to define badass. I have been looking forward to it all day. Only next week's episode will be more awesome. I can't wait to see Robb's crowning moment of awesome.

Yup, same here. I've been looking forward to it all day (but am probably going to watch basketball and record the show).

I'm wondering how they're going to handle a certain moment....if it'll be from a certain character's POV like the book or if they'll have it more direct.

[LTD]

Can't wait to see it! Ahh who am I kidding, I came here to whine;

Spoilers! Look out!


It's about time HBO reminds us they know  how to make a scene look BIG. Their tourneys, weddings and Dothraki raids have all been rather bland and of small scale and low budget. I don't expect or want CAPSLOCKED HOLLYWOOD EPICNESS of Jackson's LOTR or some such but..come on:l Single smirk of Sean Bean costs them  more than hauling few bussloads of suitable extras on location  and dressing em up.   When it comes to scenes that (should) involve actual crowds, HBO has left far too much room for geeky whining.  I want to see big fights goddamn it! :l If we have some miniature version of Whispering woods with Jaime vs 3 guys or some horrid " btw, there was a big fight, lot of people died. was awesome. sorry you missed it:)" - exploitation dialogue by Catelyn I unleash my nerd rage:l

Humm actualy, Whispering woods propably isn't in today's episide right? Well same applies to Tyvin's Host vs the diversion just as well.

Modifié par LTD, 13 juin 2011 - 01:07 .