You know, except when the Blackfyres got the Valyrian sword and all but official sanction to succeed Aegon the Unworthy. Furthermore, Orys inherited nothing, he adopted Durrandon sigils and words.
Exactly! Who hasn't given a bastard relative recently conquered lands as a means of tying things down?
Ok, how did I not know there was a GoT thread around here? I've been skulking in the Mass Effect forums for too long.
A policy which successfully ended the Targaryen dynasty. You can't argue with results.Everything can be justified. They could have simply killed the mad king. They didn't need to kill Rhaegar's wife and their children. They killed every single Targaryen cousin, aunt, uncle etc... So yes they are horrid and hid behind mad king's insanity to justify their actions. Now Karma will bite them so hard, they will be the shortest lived royal family of all time, becoming extinct on 3rd generation. More than deserved.
I'm sure it wasn't welcome when worshippers of the Seven started burning weirwoods, either.But its not a welcome religion in Westeros at all, Rhllor is officially known as the red demon. Its like asking Orlesians to worship elven gods because they actually existed in opposed to maker that may or may not exist. People need to accept and recognize it. It will surely cause instability, unless Stannis does not make it the official religion of the realm and simply lifts the taboo on the matter.
If we're talking books, Dany surviving the fire was a one-time miracle as stated by GRRM.
I think you are. You've certainly demonstrated a massive propensity for her. I prefer Stannis for the same reason: He's no zealot, and he's no tyrant. Humanity is not something that a king needs to have all the time. That it is debatable means that he understands war and duty far more than Dany Sue ever could. He knows how to set aside his compassion and humanity when it becomes a weakness (and it can become a weakness)
Please tell me more about how you think military veterans are attack dogs who lead to unhappy populations and civil wars! Otherwise, your point on Stannis is almost an entirely biased view based on speculation of what you want to happen if Stannis becomes king. He'll do away with a lot of the scheming and power systems. As well, we all know that there will be a war. In the North. We saw them coming down.
And do you really think Dany Sue isn't going to kill and burn hundreds or thousands in her 'campaign of liberation?'
I was clearly talking about the aftermath of conquest, not the conquest itself. I didn't name real life military leaders who became kings, presidents etc.. because its not allowed to discuss them here. I think if you think about it a little bit, the names will come to you. They were great when there was war, but screwed up on levels that is abhorrent and horrible. Everyone can have their opinions, but the people following Stannis are in fact zealots, while people who follow Daenerys are ideologists. S
The Targaryens don't have any heat resistance. Many have come up against fire and lost. The molten gold would have absolutely killed any of them.
The scale of it is different but they all have it. Dany certainly has it. She entered a sodding boiling water in s1, she touched fully heated dragon eggs which immediately burnt the hand of a normal person, the burn was quite severe. she was between her dragons and the warlock when they torched the warlock to death, she was completely unaffected by the flames. Its worthy to note dragon fire burns much greater than normal fire. There is also the ritual on s1. hence Dany said fire cannot kill a "true dragon". Which she evidently is.
You can't do anything about white walkers from Mereen, 1) it's probbaly the farthest large city from Westeros. Regardless, Dragon glass and Dragon steel kill white walkers. 2) Pretty sure dragon fire does as well. Dany doesn't even know winter is coming, not sure anyone in Essos knows, heck 80% of Westeros doesn't know either. 3) If Stannis was meant to fight the undead, then so be it. He will be remembered for it, but lets be real about Stannis in politics and diplomacy and ruling in general. He is meant to be a general.
4) Bastards do not inherit anything in Targaryen customs, they do not even inherit the heat resistance and dragon control. 5) Some even speculate Viserys was a bastard because the molten gold shouldn't have killed him.
1) ... Asshai?
2) Pure supposition and belief at this point. Dragons weren't even known to exist the last time the Others/White Walkers were fought.
3) Stannis has proven a capable leader on the battlefield (and at sea), which is the basis for most leaders anyway. A good king is generally a good military commander. As well, Stannis was raised to govern lands and be a lord. He has the military training on the side, in addition to his lordly duties that he was trained for. He is much more than a military commander.
4) At this point, it's painfully obvious that you have no prior association with the lore, but are jumping onto the PC progressive Dany Sue train cuz feminism. Bastards can be acknowledged and legitimized (Ramsay Snow to Ramsay Bolton and Stannis (and Robb) offering to legitimize Jon Snow into Jon Stark). They can even be given their own houses as well (House Baratheon, House Karstark, House Blackfyre). Learn your lore.
5) Just... no. Just get out. Viserys wasn't a bastard. Molten gold poured on the head is going to kill you, Targaryen or no. That's terrible logic. Targaryens aren't immune to fire or extreme heat. They just have a certain tolerance and resistance to it. It can still kill them all the same.
I don't expect non-lethal coercion. I very much desire highly lethal coercion.
My point is Olena went in expecting to use political and social deterrents. Tywin would go in with a trap. A very lethal, very effective trap.
I also think he'd have a plan for breaking out Cersei covertly. Not that I particularly want to see that. She's fine as is.
The other thing is, he wouldn't need to call in an outside army. I see a lot less Lannister soldiers around King's Landing these days. That wouldn't have happened if Tywin had still been around.
I don't know how familiar you are to the universe, but let's not try to overidealize any characters. Trust me. You have a tendency to do that. This isn't the universe where you really can (or should) do that.
Tywin was fully capable of being an idiot, as much as Stannis was (his devotion to his duty does come to stupid levels at times)
Damn if only she had ships to sail with, or some sort of flying creatures....
Stannis is king by rights, and honestly in the long term he'd be the best option, not only does he understand the Others as a threat, he's also above the petty politics played by most of the realm. King's are first and foremost military leaders. A leader like that is what is needed, not only for the Others but to bring the rest of Westeros back to heel.
You know, except when the Blackfyres got the Valyrian sword and all but official sanction to succeed Aegon the Unworthy. Furthermore, Orys inherited nothing, he adopted Durrandon sigils and words.
By right of usurping you mean. I'm not going to argue who has more rights, but you shouldn't either. They both have rights. The Starks were above petty politics as well, see what happened to them. Politics and "the game" is part of westeros and those who do not played will be ousted. There is no "backing to heel", there is more rebellion and more resistances, which will result in a fail rule. The mad king would have had better stability, unless Stannis uses his methods to silence people.
Yet I see no magic being performed by followers of the Seven?
If it is the case that it is just Magic coming back, wouldn't it affect all religions equally? Or at least be only with people who were born/raised a certain way, to show that it was their bloodline/training in effect?
Beric Dondarion pokes a hole at that, being a recent convert from the North and yet able to wield the power of resurrection coming from the Lord of Light.
I think it has more to do with the fact that the followers of R'hllor are closely tied to fire which dragons seem to personify. There is also the fact that they often use blood magic and human sacrifice to power their spells and abilities, which might have nothing to do with the Red God since Dany utilized it and possibly the faceless men.
If there was an ice god (or if there were people who worshipped the Great Other), I'd imagine that its followers would be experiencing new powers as well with the return of the Walkers. The Faith however is not connected to any known forms of magic, and I don't think any followers are encouraged to try, so they have not experienced the same resurgence as the more mystical religions.
The scale of it is different but they all have it. Dany certainly has it. She entered a sodding boiling water in s1, she touched fully heated dragon eggs which immediately burnt the hand of a normal person, the burn was quite severe. she was between her dragons and the warlock when they torched the warlock to death, she was completely unaffected by the flames. Its worthy to note dragon fire burns much greater than normal fire. There is also the ritual on s1. hence Dany said fire cannot kill a "true dragon". Which she evidently is.
Dany is a special snowflake. The incident with the bath and heated dragon eggs are both show creations that have hopefully been abandoned because they're certainly not indicative of a wider Targaryen trend (quite a few have died a fire related death). The scene at the pyre was a one off. A point GRRM has made quite explicit.
She's clearly affected by heat in the books, as is apparent when the breath of Drogon caused her blisters. Also, there's a world of difference from heated up eggs and a heated up bath to having molten gold poured over your head. Harbour no illusions, if Dany was in Viserys' place then she would have thunked to the ground as he did. "True dragon" or not.
By right of usurping you mean. I'm not going to argue who has more rights, but you shouldn't either. They both have rights. The Starks were above petty politics as well, see what happened to them. Politics and "the game" is part of westeros and those who do not played will be ousted. There is no "backing to heel", there is more rebellion and more resistances, which will result in a fail rule. The mad king would have had better stability, unless Stannis uses his methods to silence people.
Until they weren't and Ned tried to play Kingmaker and Robb played at being King
You think Stannis would have put up with LF and Varys's scheming? They'd be hanging from a tower by noon.
Bad writing. Whenever they diverge significantly and try to be edgy, they **** up.It's been two days, and I still can't get over the fact that Stannis can beat an army of hundreds of thousands of people in, like, two minutes, but a ragtag team of people completely owned his army.
I can't tell if it's ironic writing or bad writing.
I was clearly talking about the aftermath of conquest, not the conquest itself. I didn't name real life military leaders who became kings, presidents etc.. because its not allowed to discuss them here. I think if you think about it a little bit, the names will come to you. They were great when there was war, but screwed up on levels that is abhorrent and horrible. Everyone can have their opinions, but the people following Stannis are in fact zealots, while people who follow Daenerys are ideologists. S
The scale of it is different but they all have it. Dany certainly has it. She entered a sodding boiling water in s1, she touched fully heated dragon eggs which immediately burnt the hand of a normal person, the burn was quite severe. she was between her dragons and the warlock when they torched the warlock to death, she was completely unaffected by the flames. Its worthy to note dragon fire burns much greater than normal fire. There is also the ritual on s1. hence Dany said fire cannot kill a "true dragon". Which she evidently is.
No, you clearly weren't. What you say about military leaders is applicable to any civilian ideologue. Plenty screwed up on levels that are 'abhorrent and horrible'... like Dany Sue. I can list off areas where her own stupidity nearly wiped her out, if she didn't have someone more competent and intelligent to bail her out (all the while failing to teach her a lesson). Way to show typical Targ. madness with this last statement though. Just leave, you're not wanted here. This is just... batshit insane. Sounds like you don't understand the (lack of) difference between your terms. Unless you're a troll. Just go, or I'll get a mod.
As has been stated, Targaryens (as Valyrians) have a resistance to heat and fire, but not an immunity.
And if fire cannot kill a Dragon, then explain what happened to Valyria.
It was doing a lot more than 'just snowing.'
It had been in blizzard conditions for weeks at that point, and it was only going to get worse with the onset of winter.
Stannis needed a miracle, a sacrifice, to be able to breakout his Army and get them moving. He was in critical shape, as there were little supplies left at that point.
The show would have done well to illustrate that point further. To have shown Stannis trying everything he could and to have shown the desperation around camp. As it stands, Stany comes to the resolution of burning his daughter awfully quick. It's cheap and shoddy story telling.
The whole situation regarding him and Melisandre would have been hilarious really, if it wasn't so harrowing.
She warns him not to leave her behind again. "Remember Blackwater?" she said. He ends up suffering a disaster anyway and it's by fire! So the resolution of him suffering such a massive loss (brought to us by Ramsey + TWENTY GOOD MEN) is to burn his daughter? Why isn't he angry at Melisandre for not perceiving the threat?
Dragon fire killing White Walkers is a logical assumption, given the names dragonglass, dragonsteel etc. They may be just names but they're likely significant. Also White Walkers being ice magic while dragons are fire magic kinda makes it obvious.
There's a chance that could be wrong of course. But it is intuitive.
I don't know how familiar you are to the universe, but let's not try to overidealize any characters. Trust me. You have a tendency to do that. This isn't the universe where you really can (or should) do that.
Tywin was fully capable of being an idiot, as much as Stannis was (his devotion to his duty does come to stupid levels at times)
Just the show. And I'm not overidealizing anyone. I'd ask where I've done that in the past but I don't want to derail. Obviously everyone's fallible. But from what we've seen in the show at least, Tywin is capable of winning against the Sparrows.
Another thing, certain characters' flaws are directly tied to the concept they embody. Ned Stark for example embodied honor and clearly followed it to a stupid end. Stannis embodies duty and as you said, has his own blunders. Tywin embodies family loyalty and arguably that was his downfall as well. He's also the perfect avatar of a lion, seemingly regal and dignified but in reality ruthless, opportunistic and very dangerous.
1) ... Asshai?
2) Pure supposition and belief at this point. Dragons weren't even known to exist the last time the Others/White Walkers were fought.
3) Stannis has proven a capable leader on the battlefield (and at sea), which is the basis for most leaders anyway. A good king is generally a good military commander. As well, Stannis was raised to govern lands and be a lord. He has the military training on the side, in addition to his lordly duties that he was trained for. He is much more than a military commander.
4) At this point, it's painfully obvious that you have no prior association with the lore, but are jumping onto the PC progressive Dany Sue train cuz feminism. Bastards can be acknowledged and legitimized (Ramsay Snow to Ramsay Bolton and Stannis (and Robb) offering to legitimize Jon Snow into Jon Stark). They can even be given their own houses as well (House Baratheon, House Karstark, House Blackfyre). Learn your lore.
5) Just... no. Just get out. Viserys wasn't a bastard. Molten gold poured on the head is going to kill you, Targaryen or no. That's terrible logic. Targaryens aren't immune to fire or extreme heat. They just have a certain tolerance and resistance to it. It can still kill them all the same.
Dragon glass or obsidian is also called volcanic glass. Its commonly found around volcano. Valyrians made their basic furniture with it.
Valyrian steel is made with magical fires. Also a Valyrian art.
I think you can see the pattern with fire and whitewalkers, and given their nature its quite logical. Granted it was an speculation, but a good one.
Plus you are the one obsessed with Stannis, going to the limits of defending what he did and wishing Dany was insane in secret. at this point I can only speak for the show and in it there is no way Stannis is going to become the king. His fate, whatever it is, will be limited to the great other and the undead.
Dany isn't insane in secret, she enjoyed killing that one random Mereenese dude a little too much, which is to say she enjoyed it at all
Dany isn't insane in secret, she enjoyed killing that one random Mereenese dude a little too much, which is to say she enjoyed it at all
*1 year later*
"BURN THEM ALL!!!!!! BURN THEM AAAAAALLLL!"
No, you clearly weren't. What you say about military leaders is applicable to any civilian ideologue. Plenty screwed up on levels that are 'abhorrent and horrible'... like Dany Sue. I can list off areas where her own stupidity nearly wiped her out, if she didn't have someone more competent and intelligent to bail her out (all the while failing to teach her a lesson). Way to show typical Targ. madness with this last statement though. Just leave, you're not wanted here. This is just... batshit insane. Sounds like you don't understand the (lack of) difference between your terms. Unless you're a troll. Just go, or I'll get a mod.
As has been stated, Targaryens (as Valyrians) have a resistance to heat and fire, but not an immunity.
And if fire cannot kill a Dragon, then explain what happened to Valyria.
Get down from your high horse. You justified AND defended child burning. If anyone should get out its you.
And I can write volumes about Stannis and his incompetence and the fact that he was saved more that I care to count by a priest and her magic. At least Dany doesn't need a god to be where she is. However this is pointless because the show Stannis pretty much done and he won't sit on the throne now. If I were you I'd pray the book Stannis won't get same treatment.
No one can explain what happened to Valyria, it was a mix of everything, earthquakes, storms, volcanic overflow etc...
Dany isn't insane in secret, she enjoyed killing that one random Mereenese dude a little too much, which is to say she enjoyed it at all
Not that you can really call the unsullied an army anymore.
Since they have become as useful as stormtroopers.
Not that you can really call the unsullied an army anymore.
Since they have become as useful as stormtroopers.
nah man, stormtroopers actually killed rebels, just not the protagonists
the Unsullied can't even kill rebel scum right
were attracted by her magical dragons, which is her winning the magical lottery, not some divine right to rule.
Actually that is the Targaryen "divine right to rule" card from the beginning, Dragons. Plus "we are valyrians and better than you". They are certainly prettier though.
I do find it a bit funny in that by burning Shireen in the show, Stannis seems to be fulfilling the role of Azor Ahai more so than he ever did in the books. After all, AA had to kill the woman he loved to forge Lightbringer, and Stannis does the same with the one he loves. It has yet to be seen if this leads to dragons, but part of the prophecy (which the show has mentioned) has to do with waking the dragon from stone, and given Shireen's greyscale, she could go a long way to fulfilling that part of the legend as well.
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