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[God]

That's a great point about Stannis and potentially one of the reasons why I think the character has flipped whole hog into the 'villain' category.  If this 'bizzard' is so crippling, how did Ramsay and his '20 good men' maneuver in and out with such little issue?  Yes, a small force can deal with some things more easily than a large army, but not a blizzard.  And Stannis made the decision to burn his only heir to death (in a particularly tortuous and brutal way) within, what, 48 hours?  Two days earlier, everything was fine?  Now the only way out is to burn Shireen to death?  If there was any evidence that it's as bad as people insist, then maybe it would make sense.  But as is?  Nothing but a few people looking cold.  That's hardly sufficient evidence to murder the heir to your House (and only other living Baratheon).  He's now branded a kinslayer, which is a terrible taboo.

 

It's laughably bad and it taints Stannis' character beyond redemption in my opinion.  He's banking on her sacrifice being worthy to 'deal with' the bilzzard, then successfully taking the throne, then successfully having another child so that the House doesn't die out.  Sure, it's all possible, but it makes him seem much weaker in my opinion.  He's a glorified cultist at this point.  Melisandre is pulling the strings and she's a complete nutcase.  I've lost pretty much all respect for him at this point.

 

And I just want to clarify that I'm not 'blaming the writers'.  I'm blaming Stannis.  I've never really had a ton of hope that he'd be competent as a ruler and this just confirmed it to me.

 

Because they're Northmen who know the region and know how to handle and fight in the weather? They know how to wage a raid under the cover of a blizzard and use it to their advantage? A small force is much more mobile in foul weather. I can speak to you on that, having been trained in it myself. 

 

To be blunt (and I'm speaking of my own military experience), you're dead wrong on the capability of navigating a blizzard being near zero, or in harsh winter conditions. Especially when your force is used to this style of fighting.

 

Stannis himself even sends Davos off with a small force capable of forging through the storm back to Castle Black. 

 

As well, everything is most certainly not fine. They've been bogged down for weeks in the winter storm. They're running low on supplies, and the men are freezing to death. It is that bad. Stannis is that desperate to get his army moving. All the siege equipment has been destroyed, they're running low on horses, and there's little chance of the weather breaking either near them, or on their route.

 

He's not doing this to be a cultist. He's doing this because it will work. Whatever you say about Melisandre, they're one thing you can't refute: She get's results. As the trailer for the season finale shows, Shireen's death does in fact lead in the thaw, the necessary miracle that Stannis can take advantage of.

 

And kinslayer or no, if it's what needs to be done, it's what needs to be done. Stannis isn't going to back away from that. Besides, he's already a kinslayer through his assassination of Renly. 

[daveliam]

Because they're Northmen who know the region and know how to handle and fight in the weather? They know how to wage a raid under the cover of a blizzard and use it to their advantage? A small force is much more mobile in foul weather. I can speak to you on that, having been trained in it myself. 

 

To be blunt (and I'm speaking of my own military experience), you're dead wrong on the capability of navigating a blizzard being near zero, or in harsh winter conditions. Especially when your force is used to this style of fighting.

 

Stannis himself even sends Davos off with a small force capable of forging through the storm back to Castle Black. 

 

As well, everything is most certainly not fine. They've been bogged down for weeks in the winter storm. They're running low on supplies, and the men are freezing to death. It is that bad. Stannis is that desperate to get his army moving. All the siege equipment has been destroyed, they're running low on horses, and there's little chance of the weather breaking either near them, or on their route.

 

He's not doing this to be a cultist. He's doing this because it will work. Whatever you say about Melisandre, they're one thing you can't refute: She get's results. As the trailer for the season finale shows, Shireen's death does in fact lead in the thaw, the necessary miracle that Stannis can take advantage of.

 

And kinslayer or no, if it's what needs to be done, it's what needs to be done. Stannis isn't going to back away from that. Besides, he's already a kinslayer through his assassination of Renly. 

 

That's your take on it, but I disagree. 

 

With regard to the kinslayer part, there's a huge difference between an adult man who has 'taken the throne' from you and is raising an army against you and a little girl who happens to be your only heir.  Renly was a treasonous traitor.  I liked him, but he had the weakest claim of any of the pretender kings.  By declaring himself King, he made the move against Stannis. Killing him is far from the same thing as murdering your daughter by burning her alive through some magical ceremony from a cult leader.

 

Also, again you are confusing correlation with causation.  The blizzard is subsiding.  Perhaps it's because of the sacrifice.  Or perhaps it's because blizzards subside.

[Milan92]

That's a great point about Stannis and potentially one of the reasons why I think the character has flipped whole hog into the 'villain' category. If this 'bizzard' is so crippling, how did Ramsay and his '20 good men' maneuver in and out with such little issue? Yes, a small force can deal with some things more easily than a large army, but not a blizzard. And Stannis made the decision to burn his only heir to death (in a particularly tortuous and brutal way) within, what, 48 hours? Two days earlier, everything was fine? Now the only way out is to burn Shireen to death? If there was any evidence that it's as bad as people insist, then maybe it would make sense. But as is? Nothing but a few people looking cold. That's hardly sufficient evidence to murder the heir to your House (and only other living Baratheon). He's now branded a kinslayer, which is a terrible taboo.

It's laughably bad and it taints Stannis' character beyond redemption in my opinion. He's banking on her sacrifice being worthy to 'deal with' the bilzzard, then successfully taking the throne, then successfully having another child so that the House doesn't die out. Sure, it's all possible, but it makes him seem much weaker in my opinion. He's a glorified cultist at this point. Melisandre is pulling the strings and she's a complete nutcase. I've lost pretty much all respect for him at this point.

And I just want to clarify that I'm not 'blaming the writers'. I'm blaming Stannis. I've never really had a ton of hope that he'd be competent as a ruler and this just confirmed it to me.

But its bad writing that caused him to burn his daughter.

[Steelcan]

Worship of Rhollr isn't a cult, its a very widespread religion in Essos.

[daveliam]

Worship of Rhollr isn't a cult, its a very widespread religion in Essos.

Semantics, but I'll concede that and say religion. Doesn't change any of my points.

[dreamgazer]

But its bad writing that caused him to burn his daughter.

Agreed, debating the burning can really only go so far when it's in response to Ramsay's "20 good men". Ugh.

[Lulupab]

We saw a red priest in early episodes which talked about freeing slaves and following Daenerys. I highly doubt Melissandre represents the whole religion, she is just one priest who can make mistakes. Same goes for all of the red priests.

And sacrificing humans is against every concept the word divinity represents.

[CrutchCricket]

Renly was a treasonous traitor.

As opposed to a loyal traitor?

[daveliam]

As opposed to a loyal traitor?

Ha! Well, to be fair treason and betrayal aren't exactly the same thing, right?

[Addai]

That's a great point about Stannis and potentially one of the reasons why I think the character has flipped whole hog into the 'villain' category.  If this 'bizzard' is so crippling, how did Ramsay and his '20 good men' maneuver in and out with such little issue?  Yes, a small force can deal with some things more easily than a large army, but not a blizzard.

They're northerners and near their base of supply.
 

And Stannis made the decision to burn his only heir to death (in a particularly tortuous and brutal way) within, what, 48 hours?  Two days earlier, everything was fine?

Earlier Melisandre hadn't suggested it.
 

Nothing but a few people looking cold.

Starving, with no supply possible and no way to maneuver without losing the majority of their force.
 

That's hardly sufficient evidence to murder the heir to your House (and only other living Baratheon).  He's now branded a kinslayer, which is a terrible taboo.

People in wartime kill their kin if necessary for the cause. The Targaryens slaughtered each other like cattle in the Dance of Dragons and Blackfyre rebellions.
 

It's laughably bad and it taints Stannis' character beyond redemption in my opinion.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion of him.
 

He's banking on her sacrifice being worthy to 'deal with' the bilzzard, then successfully taking the throne, then successfully having another child so that the House doesn't die out.  Sure, it's all possible, but it makes him seem much weaker in my opinion.  He's a glorified cultist at this point.  Melisandre is pulling the strings and she's a complete nutcase.  I've lost pretty much all respect for him at this point.

Melisandre is not a nutcase. She's the only one south of the wall who takes the threat of the white walkers seriously. Not only that, she knows how to beat them- at least part of the picture- and is doing something about it.

And if Stannis loses at Winterfell, he loses everything. Not just him, but possibly the whole of the Seven Kingdoms. There's no point having an heir if the white walkers kill and zombiefy all the children of Westeros.

In the books, she's taking other steps to win back Winterfell that are more sophisticated, but that's unfortunately been cut.

[Steelcan]

We saw a red priest in early episodes which talked about freeing slaves and following Daenerys. I highly doubt Melissandre represents the whole religion, she is just one priest who can make mistakes. Same goes for all of the red priests.

And sacrificing humans is against every concept the word divinity represents.

wut

[Lulupab]

I was honestly rooting for Renly. Sure we can call it treason, but sometimes some facts needs to be analyzed. He got the most supporters in quite a short time. Support is as important as birthright. Stannis was repelled when Joffrey was king, an incompetent insane child. A king knowing some strategy and warfare is surely useful but its absolutely unnecessary. Some kings have the love of people, its stronger than armies. Some kings are cunning and some kings are warriors. The kings and leaders who were unique and brought real good changes usually had the love of people, or deceived them into loving him/her.

[Steelcan]

I was honestly rooting for Renly. Sure we can call it treason, but sometimes some facts needs to be analyzed. He got the most supporters in quite a short time. Support is as important as birthright. Stannis was repelled when Joffrey was king, an incompetent insane child. A king knowing some strategy and warfare is surely useful but its absolutely unnecessary. Some kings have the love of people, its stronger than armies. Some kings are cunning and some kings are warriors. The kings and leaders who were unique and brought real good changes usually had the love of people, or deceived them into loving him/her.

I take it that fact that no one save his lover was telling him he would be a good king isn't important?

[Lulupab]

wut

 

Hmm, I used the biblical meaning if the word aka celestial ultimate good etc...

 

The seven apparently are, but the lord of light seems like a 3rd party "god". . He certainly didn't created mankind, so he is just a powerful being that accepts human sacrifices and bestows gifts.

 

I take it that fact that no one save his lover was telling him he would be a good king isn't important?

 

Did we watch the same series? Sure Loras encouraged him, but once he made the claim people showered him with support and he ended up with the biggest army of all contenders. He had the people's love. Show Renly is much nicer and just than book one though. In books he is a bit of Ahole.

[CrutchCricket]

Ha! Well, to be fair treason and betrayal aren't exactly the same thing, right?

Treason is a betrayal. A betrayal of your allegiances, stated or implicit.

[daveliam]

His troops weren't starving though. They only lost their supplies a day or two earlier and they butchered the horses for food. Unless there was a time skip there that I'm not privy to, those weren't the conditions. He sacrificed Shireen at the POSSIBILITY of MAYBE stariving in the future.

Could you make the argument he was being proactive? Sure. But I think it's a foolish and rash decision that demonstrates that he's letting Melisandre make the decisions for the benefit of her religion.

[TheBlackBaron]

I take it that fact that no one save his lover was telling him he would be a good king isn't important?

The other thing about Renly and his marshaling of the Tyrells to his cause is that Renly was basically a front for the Tyrells, their backup plan.

One of the plot threads in AGOT is Renly and Loras plotting to get rid of Cersei and get Robert to marry Margaery instead (shades of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn, there). But, when Robert died, Cersei put Joffrey's butt on the throne immediately, and Ned's counter-coup failed thanks to LF. So they (the Tyrells) had to scramble instead to come up with another plan to make Margaery Queen and this was their best option at the time.

This isn't to say that Renly wasn't charismatic and popular and most of the Stormlords did follow him. But as a serious contender, Renly was nothing without the Tyrells and was in the end really nothing more than a puppet of them (I imagine Olenna would have been the one pulling most of the strings had it all gone according to plan, acting through and tutoring Margaery).

[Wulfram]

Renly had the abilities to be a good king, perhaps particularly book Renly, but I suspect he'd have ended up being basically like Robert.

 

Though honestly Robert himself might have been a very good king to deal with the Others.  He just sucked at the boring peace stuff.

[Steelcan]

Hmm, I used the biblical meaning if the word aka celestial ultimate good etc...

 

The seven apparently are, but the lord of light seems like a 3rd party "god". . He certainly didn't created mankind, so he is just a powerful being that accepts human sacrifices and bestows gifts.

 

 

Did we watch the same series? Sure Loras encouraged him, but once he made the claim people showered him with support and he ended up with the biggest army of all contenders. He had the people's love. Show Renly is much nicer and just than book one though. In books he is a bit of Ahole.

The Drowned God also takes human sacrifice, as did any number of irl deities and cultures, so let's not try and use a "no true Scotsman" when it comes to what does and doesn't count as 'divinity'

 

 

Renly ended up with the largest army because he married Margaery and was lord of the Stormlands, not because he was so loved by the people

[CrutchCricket]

To the comparison between Stannis holding Storm's End and the present situation.

 

I think one distinction that needs to be acknowledged- Stannis was under siege and awaiting relief. Apart from repelling the odd scaling party I don't imagine they'd need to do much beyond grin and bear it. But this time Stannis is on the attack and the very environment is against him. He can't afford to wait until his army gets to the "eat our dead" stage, not to mention that the chances a comparable Davos ex machina are slim to none at best.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No. Targaryens lost and were annihilated, Westeros belongs to the Baratheons by right of conquest. If Daenerys can conquer it back, power to her. But currently, Stannis Baratheon is the rightful king of Westeros.

 

Doesn't that same argument make Tommen the rightful ruler of Westeros over Stannis?

[Addai]

His troops weren't starving though. They only lost their supplies a day or two earlier and they butchered the horses for food. Unless there was a time skip there that I'm not privy to, those weren't the conditions. He sacrificed Shireen at the POSSIBILITY of MAYBE stariving in the future.

Could you make the argument he was being proactive? Sure. But I think it's a foolish and rash decision that demonstrates that he's letting Melisandre make the decisions for the benefit of her religion.

I'll have to watch again, but I think there was a time skip. The men they show are clearly desperate.

Melisandre is acting on behalf of the kingdom as much as any of the players. And she can actually point to her religion working, so it's not really a question of faith. This is why I was arguing earlier that people should think of R'hllor as an impersonal force, like a law of nature. It's the blood for power and knowledge principle.

Hmm, I used the biblical meaning if the word aka celestial ultimate good etc...

The seven apparently are, but the lord of light seems like a 3rd party "god". . He certainly didn't created mankind, so he is just a powerful being that accepts human sacrifices and bestows gifts.

Have you been paying attention to Arya's subplot? The Stranger is one of the Seven.

There are no angel wings here.

Did we watch the same series? Sure Loras encouraged him, but once he made the claim people showered him with support and he ended up with the biggest army of all contenders. He had the people's love. Show Renly is much nicer and just than book one though. In books he is a bit of Ahole.

Support that melted like butta. As Catelyn said of Renly's camp, they were the knights of summer.

[Alan Rickman]

Doesn't that same argument make Tommen the rightful ruler of Westeros over Stannis?

 

There's not a drop of Baratheon blood in that boy's veins.

[AlanC9]

Doesn't that same argument make Tommen the rightful ruler of Westeros over Stannis?

Hmm... I've heard of right of conquest, but right of adultery?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's not a drop of Baratheon blood in that boy's veins.

 

So? It's his right by the Lannisters defeating Stannis' armies in battle.