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[Fast Jimmy]

How is this thread so active after the entire season being so quiet? It's kind of tripping me out right now.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Of course it's arbitrary. It's definition. But an important one.

 

Why? Neither one of them sits on the Iron Throne. Her credibility is hardly any lower than his. All he is to most in Westeros is a traitorous usurper with so little support that the ruling house hadn't even bothered to directly act against him anymore.

[Malanek]

I seem to remember some commoners insinuating it when Tyrion was walking around in season 2. And wasn't that bard that got his tongue cut out punished for it as well?

Stannis circulated a bunch of letters all around Westeros claiming it. So yes the knowledge is out there. The question is how many people believe it against simply seeing it as propaganda. In retort Littlefinger and Cersei spread rumours stating that Shireen was sired by Patchface. And people seemed to find that funny.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

How is this thread so active after the entire season being so quiet? It's kind of tripping me out right now.

 

It's late in the season and around the time they pull out the shocking episode. Hardholme and Dance with Dragons are two episodes that for one reason or other are guaranteed to provoke discussion. 

[Han Shot First]

Well the Freys and the Boltons aren't exactly loyal to his memory.  And there's the Karstarks, too.

 

Manderley seems to be mostly looking for personal vengeance, and the Tullys haven't been offered the advantageous terms that were available to the Tyrells.

 

Manderly is seeking personal vengeance, but also is in part motivated by a strong sense of devotion and loyalty to the Starks. House Manderly was originally from the Reach, but many years in the past during the age of kings the Manderlys were on the losing side of a civil war and ended up in exile. The Stark king at that time gave them refuge and made them lords of one of the more dangerous/contested regions of his realm, in return for a vow that they would forever be the Starks' bannermen. Manderly mentions this past at one point. I think that is also what he was referencing when he said the north remembered.

 

Hopefully Manderly somehow ends up in season 6. It would be a shame if TV viewers miss this:

 

“Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me.” The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. “My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder’s bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with his friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter…but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”

 

Epic, once you know what he had planned. Manderly might be the best minor character in the series.

[Andraste Take the Wheel]

Manderly is seeking personal vengeance, but also is in part motivated by a strong sense of devotion and loyalty to the Starks. House Manderly was originally from the Reach, but many years in the past during the age of kings the Manderlys were on the losing side of a civil war and ended up in exile. The Stark king at that time gave them refuge and made them lords of one of the more dangerous/contested regions of his realm, in return for a vow that they would forever be the Starks' bannermen. Manderly mentions this past at one point. I think that is also what he was referencing when he said the north remembered.

 

Hopefully Manderly somehow ends up in season 6. It would be a shame if TV viewers never got this epic speech:

 

“Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me.” The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. “My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder’s bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with his friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter…but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”

 

If they do, I want Brian Blessed to play Wyman Manderly. He would be perfect

[CrazyRah]

Manderly is seeking personal vengeance, but also is in part motivated by a strong sense of devotion and loyalty to the Starks. House Manderly was originally from the Reach, but many years in the past during the age of kings the Manderlys were on the losing side of a civil war and ended up in exile. The Stark king at that time gave them refuge and made them lords of one of the more dangerous/contested regions of his realm, in return for a vow that they would forever be the Starks' bannermen. Manderly mentions this past at one point. I think that is also what he was referencing when he said the north remembered.

 

Hopefully Manderly somehow ends up in season 6. It would be a shame if TV viewers miss this:

 

“Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me.” The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. “My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder’s bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with his friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter…but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”

 

Epic, once you know what he had planned. Manderly might be the best minor character in the series.

 

I so hope he get a role in season 6. Those lines from him are some of the better that any character in the books say.

[Han Shot First]

If they do, I want Brian Blessed to play Wyman Manderly. He would be perfect

 

He would be perfect casting. If not him, Ian McNiece would be great as well.

 

[Malanek]

The Manderlys need to be inside Winterfell though!!! Agree with Wyman Manderly being a great minor character. I also like Doran Martell, who is in a way very similar and completely misunderstood.

[Bison]

How is this thread so active after the entire season being so quiet? It's kind of tripping me out right now.

I guess there's just more room for speculation, which is interesting to debate about

[JJDXB]

It's good that Stannis actually cares about the Others, but I'm struggling to see his and Melisandre's endgame here.  How exactly is he supposed to fight White Walkers?  He doesn't have Valyrian steel, he did have dragon glass but even in the quantities he had it was paltry.  It's painfully obvious that dragons are necessary, and the only one who has any of them is Daenerys.

 

It's all well and good that Stannis has his family stubborness, but by God the only thing he's done that's really helped prepare for the coming war is ride to the wall to deal with Rayder.  Every attempt up to that point far to prepare has been a total unmitigated disaster.  And now?  He's stuck outside Winterfell as winter sets in, having had to burn his daughter alive to keep his men alive.  Sticking to his duty, the laws and his rightful throne is admirable, but none of that has been useful and has, in fact, been completely unhelpful.  His devotion to these three things is akin to Ned and his honour.  That is, they've completely neutered his ability to further his goal.

 

I predict Melisandre will decide she's found the wrong Azor Ahai (and, really, the only reason he has thus far been a candidate is because Melisandre has tried so hard to make him fit).  Stannis will ride into his last battle realising everything he's done he did basically for naught.  Then he will die like a badass, and so ends the line of Orys Baratheon.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Yet I see no magic being performed by followers of the Seven?

If it is the case that it is just Magic coming back, wouldn't it affect all religions equally? Or at least be only with people who were born/raised a certain way, to show that it was their bloodline/training in effect?

Beric Dondarion pokes a hole at that, being a recent convert from the North and yet able to wield the power of resurrection coming from the Lord of Light.

EDIT: NVM, Beric only has the magical ability to create fire around his sword, a power that was given to him only AFTER he was brought back by the dead by Thoros, who was born in Myr and raised as a Red Priest. I take back my statement.

That, and Dondarion is a Marcher lord, nor a northerner. He's almost from the other end of the continent, in fact.

[SlottsMachine]

How is this thread so active after the entire season being so quiet? It's kind of tripping me out right now.

 

Its because **** is finally getting real. 

 

[Addai]

The Seven do not speak or answer to prayers, at least not directly. If they do so in a subtle way like the god we know of, then I have no knowledge of it, no one does actually. You can't even prove they exist.

Who's this god we know of and why should anyone care? This is Westeros. Here's a hint- if there are any gods at all, which i doubt (impersonal forces aside), they're fighting amongst themselves just like the game of thrones. And if you find yourself thinking someone is a good guy in Westeros, he/she is probably going to be a bigger source of misery than the shitheels.
 

Well the Freys and the Boltons aren't exactly loyal to his memory.  And there's the Karstarks, too.
 
Manderley seems to be mostly looking for personal vengeance, and the Tullys haven't been offered the advantageous terms that were available to the Tyrells.

Better than falling all over yourself to bend the knee to the new boss.
 

I predict Melisandre will decide she's found the wrong Azor Ahai (and, really, the only reason he has thus far been a candidate is because Melisandre has tried so hard to make him fit). Stannis will ride into his last battle realising everything he's done he did basically for naught. Then he will die like a badass, and so ends the line of Orys Baratheon.

Yes, they're only part of the picture, but at least they're doing something. And their efforts have not been for nought- they saved the Night's Watch and are enabling a wildling army to be recruited to the cause. That is most decidedly not nothing.

I'm pretty sure Mel is going to figure out she got the wrong AA and burn Stannis or die trying.

[TheBlackBaron]

How is this thread so active after the entire season being so quiet? It's kind of tripping me out right now.

CONTROVERSY, Jimmy.

[justafan]

It's good that Stannis actually cares about the Others, but I'm struggling to see his and Melisandre's endgame here.  How exactly is he supposed to fight White Walkers?  He doesn't have Valyrian steel, he did have dragon glass but even in the quantities he had it was paltry.  It's painfully obvious that dragons are necessary, and the only one who has any of them is Daenerys.

 

Well, Melisandre's whole goal seems to be to shape him into Azor Ahai, who beat the White Walkers once in ancient times and who her religion says will be born again.  If she can make Stannis AA, then defeating the walkers is prophesied to take care of itself.  As for the dragonglass, Stannis is still the lord of Dragonstone in the TV series, which has the largest source of obsidian in the 7 kingdoms.  Presumably he can get more shipped North until the castle is taken.  As for Dragons, Melisandre keeps saying a sacrifice of kingsblood is needed to "awaken the dragons from stone" or something of the like.  I would think he would expect this after burning his true-blooded heir, though he is very likely to be disappointed.

[CrutchCricket]

Why? Neither one of them sits on the Iron Throne. Her credibility is hardly any lower than his. All he is to most in Westeros is a traitorous usurper with so little support that the ruling house hadn't even bothered to directly act against him anymore.

The difference between retreat and running away is self-evident. Not just in GoT but in any combat situation, real or fictional.

 

And you misunderstand. I'm not talking about how many people believe in one or the other. I'm talking about laws, customs and traditions of the land. And by all of those, Stannis is the rightful king unless he's killed and/or his line/powerbase is destroyed.

 

Stannis circulated a bunch of letters all around Westeros claiming it. So yes the knowledge is out there. The question is how many people believe it against simply seeing it as propaganda. In retort Littlefinger and Cersei spread rumours stating that Shireen was sired by Patchface. And people seemed to find that funny.

If I remember the commoners in King's Landing correctly, enough of them believe it or say they do. Whether they care or are just using it as an excuse to ****** about rulers they despise is another matter.

[Il Divo]

That's your take on it, but I disagree. 

 

With regard to the kinslayer part, there's a huge difference between an adult man who has 'taken the throne' from you and is raising an army against you and a little girl who happens to be your only heir.  Renly was a treasonous traitor.  I liked him, but he had the weakest claim of any of the pretender kings.  By declaring himself King, he made the move against Stannis. Killing him is far from the same thing as murdering your daughter by burning her alive through some magical ceremony from a cult leader.

 

Also, again you are confusing correlation with causation.  The blizzard is subsiding.  Perhaps it's because of the sacrifice.  Or perhaps it's because blizzards subside.

 

To be clear, I'm not sure how relevant this is. From a pure moral perspective, I'd agree that burning your innocent daughter alive is far worse than killing a traitorous brother.

 

But it's important to keep in mind that kinslaying, much as breaking guest right, seems to be an actual taboo. You're either a kin slayer (and therefore cursed) or you aren't. It's not the type of concept that really allows for relativism, at least from the way I've seen it treated. 

 

Regarding the blizzard and correlation: we can consider two things here: we know that Melisandre does have access to incredible magic abilities, but we don't know the exact scope. It's clear the Red God's magic plays some role in both murdering Renly and resurrecting Beric Dondarrion, but other instances (the leeches in the Fire) are more questionable, as Melisandre herself admits.

 

But we do know that her powers are to some extent reliable and her frequent insistence on getting her hands on individuals with King's Blood (Stannis himself, Gendry, Jon Snow, and finally Shireen) isn't a bad basis to think that her methods will work here. Not to mention, I'd hate to imagine the consequences for her if she had burned Shireen without being certain of its beneficial effects. Stannis would likely have her burned next. 

[Dermain]

Well to be fair, they have been content to pimp out Margaery to three seperate kings

 

Well she was only really pimped out to the third one since the first two never touched her.

 

Tywin wouldn't have been stupid enough to give them the legitimate backing of the Crown

 

Which is why he called Cersei an idiot last season.

 

I think you are. You've certainly demonstrated a massive propensity for her. I prefer Stannis for the same reason: He's no zealot, and he's no tyrant. Humanity is not something that a king needs to have all the time. That it is debatable means that he understands war and duty far more than Dany Sue ever could. He knows how to set aside his compassion and humanity when it becomes a weakness (and it can become a weakness)

 

Please tell me more about how you think military veterans are attack dogs who lead to unhappy populations and civil wars! Otherwise, your point on Stannis is almost an entirely biased view based on speculation of what you want to happen if Stannis becomes king. He'll do away with a lot of the scheming and power systems. As well, we all know that there will be a war. In the North. We saw them coming down. 

 

And do you really think Dany Sue isn't going to kill and burn hundreds or thousands in her 'campaign of liberation?'

 

Well she's already managed to do that.

 

Of course, with her whole "breaking the wheel" thing she's going to end up massacring all of the great families in Westeros for "teh lulz". Unless Tyrion or Varys (if he ever shows up again) can convince her otherwise.

 

Who do you think would win in a fight, the Unsullied (minus Grey Worm) or Ramsay and his 20 good men?

 

Obviously, Ramsay and his 20 good men. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The difference between retreat and running away is self-evident. Not just in GoT but in any combat situation, real or fictional.

 

And you misunderstand. I'm not talking about how many people believe in one or the other. I'm talking about laws, customs and traditions of the land. And by all of those, Stannis is the rightful king unless he's killed and/or his line/powerbase is destroyed.

 

If I remember the commoners in King's Landing correctly, enough of them believe it or say they do. Whether they care or are just using it as an excuse to ****** about rulers they despise is another matter.

 

Westeros actually has laws and rules about conquest? I thought the whole point of being a conqueror was that you get to decide your own rules.

[TheJester000]

And you misunderstand. I'm not talking about how many people believe in one or the other. I'm talking about laws, customs and traditions of the land. And by all of those, Stannis is the rightful king unless he's killed and/or his line/powerbase is destroyed.

 

That's not entirely true though. His claim to the throne is based on the false presumption that all Targaryens were killed during the rebellion. Had the people of Westeros known there were two living Targaryens at the end of the Rebellion, no one would have accepted Robert as king. Had they had all been killed then yes, Stannis would have the rightful claim being his next of kin, but it's now known Daenerys lives so the rightful claim would revert back to the true royal blood line.

[Iakus]

To be clear, I'm not sure how relevant this is. From a pure moral perspective, I'd agree that burning your innocent daughter alive is far worse than killing a traitorous brother.

 

But it's important to keep in mind that kinslaying, much as breaking guest right, seems to be an actual taboo. You're either a kin slayer (and therefore cursed) or you aren't. It's not the type of concept that really allows for relativism, at least from the way I've seen it treated. 

 

THis is true.  Even Robb executing a Karstark personally when he had every legal right to do so was a serious blow to the morale of his troops simply because they were distant cousins.  It was definitely a grey area as far as that particular taboo goes.  

 

It's far worse with Stannis and Renly since they are brothers, though again there is a sort of legal justification Stannis could hang it on.

 

With Stannis and his daughter, there is no doubt whatsoever.  

[God]

That's not entirely true though. His claim to the throne is based on the false presumption that all Targaryens were killed during the rebellion. Had the people of Westeros known there were two living Targaryens at the end of the Rebellion, no one would have accepted Robert as king. Had they had all been killed then yes, Stannis would have the rightful claim being his next of kin, but it's now known Daenerys lives so the rightful claim would revert back to the true royal blood line.

 

That's not really true either. I mean, going by your argument, several lines that resisted Aegon's Conquest (and survived to the modern day, most notably, the Martells and the Lannisters) would imply that the entire Targaryen dynasty was illegitimate since members of those families survived. In the case of the Martells, it wasn't until decades after Aegon's conquest that they finally agreed to peace with the Targaryens (who, despite their dragons and armies, could not conquer the Dornish in their own territory.) Which, in all fairness, the Targaryen dynasty was illegitimate from a purely inherited value. Aegon had no claim or right to Westeros or its kingdoms. He invaded because he was ambitious and wanted to bring the Targaryens to greatness. And he had the means to back up that ambition via dragons, a well-planned and executed strategy (Aegon was well-regarded as a warrior and commander in battle, and meticulously planned his invasion), and a strong, motivated army. 

 

When Robert did the same 300 years later, he was arguably more efficient in eliminating his foes. That only two (relevant) Targaryens, who were both no older than children, escaped his grasp at all is a wonder. Robert was accepted because 1) it meant the war was over, which, at the end of the day, is really all most of the people care about, 2) he was savvy enough and charismatic enough to turn most of his enemies into allies, and 3) he proved his will through force and victory. 

 

As Ned said, despite Robert's claim through his Targaryen grandmother, the true claim behind Robert was his skill with a hammer.

[Dermain]

That's not entirely true though. His claim to the throne is based on the false presumption that all Targaryens were killed during the rebellion. Had the people of Westeros known there were two living Targaryens at the end of the Rebellion, no one would have accepted Robert as king. Had they had all been killed then yes, Stannis would have the rightful claim being his next of kin, but it's now known Daenerys lives so the rightful claim would revert back to the true royal blood line.

 

Not really no.

 

She has a legitimate claim to the throne, but she'd still need to get the support of the people that she wants to rule. or as is more likely (with her whole "breaking the wheel" crap) kill them all and rule over the ruins. Since Drogon was wounded (possibly extensively) it's highly likely that the only thing you'd need to kill a dragon would be at least five balistas per dragon.

[TheJester000]

That's not really true either. I mean, going by your argument, several lines that resisted Aegon's Conquest (and survived to the modern day, most notably, the Martells and the Lannisters) would imply that the entire Targaryen dynasty was illegitimate since members of those families survived.

 

Not true, because those were individual kingdoms which operated under a different set of rules. Each of the seven kingdoms still technically has their own royal bloodline. The Martells still rule Dorne and though they are not given title of king of that kingdom, there bloodline is the royal bloodline of that land. The Targaryens were the first to bring the kingdoms under one rule and are the true kings of the seven kingdoms, a position that did not exist without them. There blooldine is the royal bloodline for that title. The two fall under different rule sets.