11084 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

 

Technically she could have a matrilineal (sic?) marriage which would make any children she has of her dynasty. 

 

 

Ah, sure. To many hours in Crusader Kings II to not know that. But, afaik, that is practiced in Westeros as much as in the western middle ages: not at all.

 

Related to above:

 

Spoiler

The Targaryans have a tradition of marrying close relatives to each other.  Like, as close to brother to sister.  Danny could always marry her nephew Jon, assuming he does find a way out of the Night's watch oaths   

 

Spoiler

I said aside from theories! Jon Snow is dead, along with that R+L=J theory! You hear me? DEEEEEAD!

 

 

 

ok rundown time. Who do you people think will win the iron throne?

 

Littlefinger and Bronn are the only people who constantly end up a step higher on the ladder in each book. Soo... first gay marriage between House Blackwater and Baelish?

 

Na... seriously: It will probably be Daenerys and/or Jon Snow. Or nobody.

[justafan]

Well:

 

Spoiler

While it's possible, it does assume that Jon dies, and that Melisandre rezzes him.  As far as I know, neither is confirmed yet.  

 

Spoiler

 After the most recent GoT episode, with the showrunners saying "when George told us about this scene", I'm becoming more and more convinced that Shireen will be sacrificed by Mel to bring back Jon in the books.  After all, they are all in the right place, she has kingsblood, and there's the whole prophecy about "raising dragons from stone" the Dragon being half-Targaryen Jon and the stone being the greyscale afflicted Shireen.

[Bison]

Spoiler

 After the most recent GoT episode, with the showrunners saying "when George told us about this scene", I'm becoming more and more convinced that Shireen will be sacrificed by Mel to bring back Jon in the books.  After all, they are all in the right place, she has kingsblood, and there's the whole prophecy about "raising dragons from stone" the Dragon being half-Targaryen Jon and the stone being the greyscale afflicted Shireen.

Aye, same here. 

 

Spoiler

Also, the last thing Jon says is 'Ghost' so maybe he warged just before he died? So maybe Mel can sense that.

[Ozzy]

C'mon dude. Use spoiler tags like the people you're replying to. 

[Dovahzeymahlkey]

if only game of thrones had the dragonborn. Would make the wedding look like a joke.

[Fast Jimmy]

My money's on either Stannis or the Night's King.

As for Daenerys, I have this suspicion that she's just a giant Decoy Protagonist. Same with Jon.

This assumes the protagonist is the one who wins the throne. What if the antagonist wins the throne?

[Fast Jimmy]

Aye, same here.

Also, the last thing Jon says is 'Ghost' so maybe he warged just before he died? So maybe Mel can sense that.

Spoiler

...Ghost.

[CrutchCricket]

Tommen sits his seat, and Stannis didn't permit it, it's a technicality of conquest. 

Happening to be near the seat isn't conquering. The seat isn't his until Stannis is destroyed.

 

 

As for who I think will win, it's probably Daenerys. I know one of the series' main selling points is the subverting the protagonist expectations and "anyone can die" but I think they'll cave and go the conventional route in the end. Besides, isn't she the GRRM favorite?

[Jester]

Besides, isn't she the GRRM favorite?

Nope. Tyrion is. 

[CrutchCricket]

Nope. Tyrion is. 

I think Tyrion is everyone's favorite at this point.

 

But I could've sworn I heard somewhere that Dany is. Maybe I was mistaken.

 

Excellent sig, by the way.

[daveliam]

Happening to be near the seat isn't conquering. The seat isn't his until Stannis is destroyed.

I do not understand your point here. More specifically, I don't see how you can reconcile this statement with your view on Dany.

If the throne isn't Tommen's because Stannis still has an army and is planning on taking his 'rightful' throne by force, then doesn't the exact same argument stand for Dany? Yes, she fled as a small child, but upon coming of age, she raised an army and is intending on reclaiming her 'rightful' throne.

If the throne isn't Tommen's until Stannis is defeated, then the throne isn't Stannis' until Dany is defeated, no?

And, just to clarify, in my opinion, the throne is 'rightfully' Tommen's. He's a Lannister and a bastard, but was recognized by Robert as his son. He's the eldest male child of the last King, who recognized him as such. Kings have claimed thrones with far less supporting evidence in the past. I just don't know who comes next: Stannis or Myrcella.

[wicked cool]

Anyone else get the vibe that dany summoned drogon and then calmed/controlled him. She taps into her hidden powers due to desperation

[Steelcan]

I do not understand your point here. More specifically, I don't see how you can reconcile this statement with your view on Dany.

If the throne isn't Tommen's because Stannis still has an army and is planning on taking his 'rightful' throne by force, then doesn't the exact same argument stand for Dany? Yes, she fled as a small child, but upon coming of age, she raised an army and is intending on reclaiming her 'rightful' throne.

If the throne isn't Tommen's until Stannis is defeated, then the throne isn't Stannis' until Dany is defeated, no?

And, just to clarify, in my opinion, the throne is 'rightfully' Tommen's. He's a Lannister and a bastard, but was recognized by Robert as his son. He's the eldest male child of the last King, who recognized him as such. Kings have claimed thrones with far less supporting evidence in the past. I just don't know who comes next: Stannis or Myrcella.

Stannis does as Westeros places female claimants last behind all other males, but in the current political climate its hard to see Stannis taking over in the event of Tommen's death.

 

Dany does not have a claim to the throne in the eyes of most of Westeros I would imagine.  The Targaryens have a bit of a spotty reputation at the best of times.  There are those who would welcome her return but I doubt it would be out of a sense that only Targaryens should be on the throne.

 

Spoiler

and if fAegon is legit, or even believed to be legit, he gets precedence over her

[Steelcan]

Anyone else get the vibe that dany summoned drogon and then calmed/controlled him. She taps into her hidden powers due to desperation

lolno

[Isichar]

Yeah I heard Tyrion was GRRMs favorite followed by Arya

[Lulupab]

lolno

 
Its quite possible though, her dragons are the only ones in history that can't be directly controlled by their Targaryen master. As much as you want to blame her for this, she wasn't trained. Not only no Targaryen who knew the techniques was alive to teach her, the dragons were thought to be extinct.

 

At this point, two houses have relevance and power. Tyrells and Martells. Starks and Lannisters are exhausted. Martells are guaranteed to support Dany and Tyrells  might or might not. But given that they owe everything to Targaryens they are more likely to support her than Stannis.

[Iakus]

 

Dany does not have a claim to the throne in the eyes of most of Westeros I would imagine.  The Targaryens have a bit of a spotty reputation at the best of times.  There are those who would welcome her return but I doubt it would be out of a sense that only Targaryens should be on the throne.

 

At this point Danny has a claim in the same was "We have a Hulk" is a claim 

[God]

 
1) Its quite possible though, her dragons are the only ones in history that can't be directly controlled by their Targaryen master. As much as you want to blame her for this, she wasn't trained. 2) Not only no Targaryen who knew the techniques was alive to teach her, the dragons were thought to be extinct.

 

At this point, 3) two houses have relevance and power. Tyrells and Martells. Starks and Lannisters are exhausted. 4) Martells are guaranteed to support Dany and Tyrells  might or might not. But given that they owe everything to Targaryens they are more likely to support her than Stannis.

 

That's not true. Dragons aren't 'controlled'. They can be tamed, and they can listen and obey instructions of their riders, but at the end of the day, they are still wild beasts. They can't truly be broken or controlled. As well, your post implies that the Targaryens are the only dragonlords in history. If you don't know the lore, don't make proclamations about it. The Targaryens are the last vestige of the Valyrian Dragonlords, and they weren't even close to being among the most powerful of families.

 

There's no technique for it: She's their 'mother' who birthed them. They recognize her as someone who is a maternal figure to them.

 

You're forgetting a great deal of houses throughout the Kingdom, most notably, House Arryn, and the Vale. The Lannisters are also still in control of the Iron Throne as well. The Starks still have a potential powerbase out of the North and the Riverlands, who mostly are still loyal to the Stark memory. 

 

The Martells are not guaranteed of anything. In the books, at this point, they're even less likely to support Daenerys after she rebuffed their offer through Quentyn Martell. They're much for likely to support fAegon!, especially if he turns out to be their long-lost relative.

[CrutchCricket]

I do not understand your point here. More specifically, I don't see how you can reconcile this statement with your view on Dany.

If the throne isn't Tommen's because Stannis still has an army and is planning on taking his 'rightful' throne by force, then doesn't the exact same argument stand for Dany? Yes, she fled as a small child, but upon coming of age, she raised an army and is intending on reclaiming her 'rightful' throne.

If the throne isn't Tommen's until Stannis is defeated, then the throne isn't Stannis' until Dany is defeated, no?

And, just to clarify, in my opinion, the throne is 'rightfully' Tommen's. He's a Lannister and a bastard, but was recognized by Robert as his son. He's the eldest male child of the last King, who recognized him as such. Kings have claimed thrones with far less supporting evidence in the past. I just don't know who comes next: Stannis or Myrcella.

Underlined is key. Stannis himself acknowledges that even retreating one too many times counts for the same thing. You run, you forfeit your claim.

 

Robert didn't know the truth about "his" children. If he had, he'd have killed them all. This is part of poor Ned's undoing. His recognition (if an official one was ever made) was made under false pretenses and so is null and void.

[Lulupab]

That's not true. Dragons aren't 'controlled'. They can be tamed, and they can listen and obey instructions of their riders, but at the end of the day, they are still wild beasts. They can't truly be broken or controlled. As well, your post implies that the Targaryens are the only dragonlords in history. If you don't know the lore, don't make proclamations about it. The Targaryens are the last vestige of the Valyrian Dragonlords, and they weren't even close to being among the most powerful of families.

 

There's no technique for it: She's their 'mother' who birthed them. They recognize her as someone who is a maternal figure to them.

 

You're forgetting a great deal of houses throughout the Kingdom, most notably, House Arryn, and the Vale. The Lannisters are also still in control of the Iron Throne as well. The Starks still have a potential powerbase out of the North and the Riverlands, who mostly are still loyal to the Stark memory. 

 

The Martells are not guaranteed of anything. In the books, at this point, they're even less likely to support Daenerys after she rebuffed their offer through Quentyn Martell. They're much for likely to support fAegon!, especially if he turns out to be their long-lost relative.

 

But we don't know about other Valyrians. In dance of dragons, the dragons obeyed the command of a Targaryen to kill another Targaryen who also had dragons. The dragons even attacked each other. The bond is quite strong and once its built (the ritual Dany did on s1) it can no longer be broken, had it allowed to be trained further. There is simply no evidence of a dragon disobeying its Targaryen master before Daenerys. The Dragon is not a slave, but like a very loyal dog, it will obey its master 99% of the times.

 

My point was after Tommen's death/removal from throne. If that happens, the Lannister gold mines are dry and their armies are exhausted. The northern lands is not worth the trouble, if the rest of continents falls/supports, the north will follow anyhow.

 

I'm not aware of Martells in the books, but they will not side with a Lannister or Baratheon when there is a Targaryen alive, no matter who he/she is. Remember when Dany was talking about breaking the wheel? Neither she nor Tyrion even mentioned Martells, because its assumed that they will simply support Dany with open arms. There are many facts mentioned in details.

[Fast Jimmy]

Stannis does as Westeros places female claimants last behind all other males, but in the current political climate its hard to see Stannis taking over in the event of Tommen's death.

It is going to be interesting to see what happens when Myrcella comes back to Kings Landing. If a Tommen dies (mysteriously), then she will have the full support of both the Lannisters AND Dorne to take the throne. Now THAT would be a dark horse bet right there... a Martell on the Iron Throne.

[Fast Jimmy]

But we don't know about other Valyrians. In dance of dragons, the dragons obeyed the command of a Targaryen to kill another Targaryen who also had dragons. The dragons even attacked each other. The bond is quite strong and once its built (the ritual Dany did on s1) it can no longer be broken, had it allowed to be trained further. There is simply no evidence of a dragon disobeying its Targaryen master before Daenerys. The Dragon is not a slave, but like a very loyal dog, it will obey its master 99% of the times.

My point was after Tommen's death/removal from throne. If that happens, the Lannister gold mines are dry and their armies are exhausted. The northern lands is not worth the trouble, if the rest of continents falls/supports, the north will follow anyhow.

I'm not aware of Martells in the books, but they will not side with a Lannister or Baratheon when there is a Targaryen alive, no matter who he/she is. Remember when Dany was talking about breaking the wheel? Neither she nor Tyrion even mentioned Martells, because its assumed that they will simply support Dany with open arms. There are many facts mentioned in details.

Book Dany burns some bridges with Dorne. I'm not sure they would welcome her with open arms.

[CrutchCricket]

It is going to be interesting to see what happens when Myrcella comes back to Kings Landing. If a Tommen dies (mysteriously), then she will have the full support of both the Lannisters AND Dorne to take the throne. Now THAT would be a dark horse bet right there... a Martell on the Iron Throne.

That would be interesting. Hadn't thought of that.

[Lulupab]

Book Dany burns some bridges with Dorne. I'm not sure they would welcome her with open arms.

 

What sort of bridge burning? Does it equal to genocide of their family, later Oberyn. Not to mention there were rather forced to submit to Baratheons in opposed to peacefully marrying with Targaryens.

 

I think the Martells value family bonds enough to at least consider her, but again I'm not aware of situation in the books.

[daveliam]

Underlined is key. Stannis himself acknowledges that even retreating one too many times counts for the same thing. You run, you forfeit your claim.

Robert didn't know the truth about "his" children. If he had, he'd have killed them all. This is part of poor Ned's undoing. His recognition (if an official one was ever made) was made under false pretenses and so is null and void.

That's kind of silly. A child smuggled to safety because of a coup is expected to just surrender their claim because they 'fled' (ie, someone took them away)? That doesn't make any sense. They maintain their claim. I'm not saying 'rightful', mind you, but they certainly still have a strong claim. At least as strong as the uncle of the son of the usurper, relying on (for the characters) unsubstantiated rumors. Remember that the evidence against Tommen's claim is that he's blond and Baratheons are brunette......

To the second point, supposition. I agree that you're probably right but it holds no bearing on the situation because it never happened.