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[God]

But we don't know about other Valyrians. In dance of dragons, the dragons obeyed the command of a Targaryen to kill another Targaryen who also had dragons. The dragons even attacked each other. The bond is quite strong and once its built (the ritual Dany did on s1) it can no longer be broken, had it allowed to be trained further. There is simply no evidence of a dragon disobeying its Targaryen master before Daenerys. The Dragon is not a slave, but like a very loyal dog, it will obey its master 99% of the times.

 

I'm not aware of Martells in the books, but they will not side with a Lannister or Baratheon when there is a Targaryen alive, no matter who he/she is. Remember when Dany was talking about breaking the wheel? Neither she nor Tyrion even mentioned Martells, because its assumed that they will simply support Dany with open arms. There are many facts mentioned in details.

 

We know enough about Valyrians to know that what I said is true. As I said, please bother to do research instead of mistaking your ignorance of the lore for everyone else's ignorance. And what you're saying is not really pertinent here. You've really just talked past my point.

 

More likely she simply didn't mention their name out of ignorance of who they were or what they are worth. Otherwise, why didn't she mention the Arryn's? Or the Tully's? Or the Greyjoys? Or any other powerful or prominent houses like the Boltons, or the Freys, or the Hightowers, or the Daynes? The Martells, first and foremost, want peace and prosperity for Dorne. The fact that in the show, they're wedding their heir to a 'Baratheon' is evidence to the contrary. Where are said facts? What are they? How come only you are aware of these facts? 

 

You don't need to answer: It's rhetorical. Having read the books and seen the show and participated heavily in lore discussions and analyses of the lore, I know that what you're saying is either blatantly false, completely false, untrue, or lies. What little truth there is has been in your statements has been distorted or misinterpreted by you to support your conclusions.

[God]

What sort of bridge burning? Does it equal to genocide of their family, later Oberyn. Not to mention there were rather forced to submit to Baratheons in opposed to peacefully marrying with Targaryens.

 

I think the Martells value family bonds enough to at least consider her, but again I'm not aware of situation in the books.

 

Dorne offers an alliance if Daenerys marries Quentyn, thus partially fulfilling a vow made shortly after Daenerys and Viserys were smuggled from Dragonstone to Braavos, made by Ser Willem Darry and Oberyn Martell for an alliance with Dorne when Viserys came of age. Viserys was to marry Arianne Martell, the daughter of Prince Doran Martell, in exchange for the support of Dorne upon his return to Westeros. The pact was agreed to by Ser Willem Darry, the last surviving servant of the Targaryen royal court, and Oberyn Martell, acting under the orders of Prince Doran. The pact was witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos, and signed by Ser Willem and Oberyn under the Sealords blessing. 

 

With Viserys of course dead, the Martells are still willing to fulfill their end of the bargain if, instead of the now impossible union between Viserys and Arianne Martell, Daenerys will marry Arianne's younger brother Quentyn Martell. Daenerys turns them down without much fanfare, and Prince Quentyn is mocked by Daario Naharis, while Daenerys thinks that he's just a boy. He is told by Barristan that it would be best to forget about the pact and go home. Of course, Quentyn is dutiful, and doesn't want to return empty handed. He has a bit of dragonsblood in his lineage, and he tries to tame one of Daenerys' dragons (this is after she's ridden off with Drogon and hasn't been seen in weeks), only to get burned alive by the other dragon. 

 

With his death, by dragon fire (which the Martells would logically assume that Daenerys answered their offer of alliance with the murder of Prince Doran's eldest son), you can be pretty certain that the Martells now pretty much hate Dany. They're more interested in helping fAegon! now, if he is who he says he is (the actual trueborn son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, and, more importantly, the presumed dead child of Princess Elia Martell). He'd be a child of Dorne as much as he was a Targaryen.

[mousestalker]

Show <> Books. As the show's story progresses the disparity grows. This includes the back story and the lore, which if the truth be told reads as though GRRM was making it up on the fly. The show hangs together better simply because the people involved have had a chance to think things through a bit better.

/trenchant (Notice the total lack of qualifiers? The BSN is teaching me to be didactic. Thanks guys!)

[God]

Down with Stannis

 

Down with those who would oppose the rightful king.

[God]

Fire cannot kill a Dragon.

 

Tell that to Valyria.

[mousestalker]

Stan is the brother of the a usurper. He has no more a valid claim to the throne than do the Martells. Further he is a power mad fool who sacrificed the one person who loved him for a chance to escape some cold weather. He is both short sighted and over-rigid. He clearly will not succeed in his ultimate goal. He makes more enemies than he wins allies.

[Lulupab]

We know enough about Valyrians to know that what I said is true. As I said, please bother to do research instead of mistaking your ignorance of the lore for everyone else's ignorance. And what you're saying is not really pertinent here. You've really just talked past my point.
 
More likely she simply didn't mention their name out of ignorance of who they were or what they are worth. Otherwise, why didn't she mention the Arryn's? Or the Tully's? Or the Greyjoys? Or any other powerful or prominent houses like the Boltons, or the Freys, or the Hightowers, or the Daynes? The Martells, first and foremost, want peace and prosperity for Dorne. The fact that in the show, they're wedding their heir to a 'Baratheon' is evidence to the contrary. Where are said facts? What are they? How come only you are aware of these facts? 
 
You don't need to answer: It's rhetorical. Having read the books and seen the show and participated heavily in lore discussions and analyses of the lore, I know that what you're saying is either blatantly false, completely false, untrue, or lies. What little truth there is has been in your statements has been distorted or misinterpreted by you to support your conclusions.

 
This is PURE and UTTER OMGUS post. You failed to point out a single instance where a dragon disobeyed its Targaryen master before Daenerys, therefore no, based on what we know about Valyrians, they treated dragons like loyal dogs, something taught to them by their forefathers.

 

Greyjoys were quite happy with Targaryens as well. They were allowed to keep most of their old customs in opposed to being subjugated now, after the rebellion. They are hardly mentioned in the show as well because they are so pathetic in their current situation.

 

The rest of the houses are utterly minor houses and never really played any big roles UNLESS their overlord house fell. Tyrells were no ones, but once house Gardener fell, they replaced them. If Tyrells fall, Hightowers will replace them. Boltons were nobodies when Starks ruled as well. Did you expect Dany to name all houses of Westeros which are well above 20? She only mentioned relevant and strong ones and she didn't name Martells because they didn't need wheelbreaking. The thing between her and Martells didn't happen in the show and if you claim to read all the lore and still think the show Martells will not support Dany then I have a bridge to sell you and its a very big one.

 

But this is nothing new to me, I haven't met a single war veteran that I didn't argue with. I don't expect you to understand how Dany is ten times more powerful as figure than Stannis. As people like Gandhi and Martin Luther will be always better than people like Napoleon. I don't think I need to tell you which one is Stannis.
 

[Lulupab]

Tell that to Valyria.

 

Yes lets forget the raging storms and destructive earthquakes.

[Ozzy]

This includes the back story and the lore, which if the truth be told reads as though GRRM was making it up on the fly. The show hangs together better simply because the people involved have had a chance to think things through a bit better.

 

Completely and utterly disagree with this. If anything, the way the show is patched together only serves to illustrate just how well thought out and constructed the books are. So much foreshadowing and so much depth that make it difficult to translate to the screen and it's why I don't envy the task D&D have. The show is often weakest when the creators decide to veer into their own territory, especially when they decide to veer back into book territory anyway as an end result (ie the changes to Shae). There is a lot more room for plotholes and inconsistency.

 

They have made some improvements in terms of ageing up the characters (something GRRM wishes he'd done) and they have put together an entertaining show in general. I can understand people perhaps enjoying the show more than the books but to say that it hangs together better is just so off the mark. 

[God]

Stan is the brother of the a usurper. He has no more a valid claim to the throne than do the Martells. Further he is a power mad fool who sacrificed the one person who loved him for a chance to escape some cold weather. He is both short sighted and over-rigid. He clearly will not succeed in his ultimate goal. He makes more enemies than he wins allies.

 

Robert was a usurper, but he was also a rightful king. He took the throne through conquest, forced the remnants of the Targaryens to flee Westeros entirely (thus forfeiting any legal claim to Westeros or the Iron Throne), and was able to win over many of his former enemies who supported the Targaryens. As well, the Targaryens weren't entirely free of wrong-doing here. The Mad King was, well, quite mad, especially in how he had Lord Stark and Brandon Stark executed, quite injustly.

 

Stannis is not a power mad fool. He sacrificed his daughter to escape a blizzard that was only going to get worse as Winter rolled in (predicted to be one of the worst, if not THE worst winters in the history of the lore), and so that his army and powerbase could survive. 

 

You're condemning him because he acted. Honestly, there's no point engaging you here because you don't want him to succeed, no matter what he does. There's nothing he can do that's right. I don't think you quite understand how this world works, and you certainly don't understand the values of pragmatism.

 

Stannis did the smart thing, by burning the one person who loved him. The right thing. It's not about power or ambition, it's about duty.

 

Think with your head, not with your heart.

[God]

Yes lets forget the raging storms and destructive earthquakes.

 

Brought on by massive Volcanic activity. Fire and blood, is what is said to have destroyed Valyria.

 

Also, how exactly does an earthquake kill a dragon that can fly? Come on man. Sure, some might be on the ground, but you don't think that a dragon could also fly up and away?

[Lulupab]

Brought on by massive Volcanic activity. Fire and blood, is what is said to have destroyed Valyria.

 

Also, how exactly does an earthquake kill a dragon that can fly? Come on man. Sure, some might be on the ground, but you don't think that a dragon could also fly up and away?

 

I don't know? Storm didn't let them fly? Thunderstrike? Heck the whole thing could be a disaster of magic and not a natural sort of doom.

 

Also why do you defend Stannis like his attorney? My argument is Westeros needs an ideologist, therefore I pick Dany with the knowledge that greater conquers before him did not fare well when sat on the throne. We tend to have pessimistic views that ideology is doomed to fail yet when you look back at history and significant events, it was always an ideologist and/or a group of them who inspired it or made it happen. 

[Ozzy]

Whether it's the "right" thing is debatable. Stannis may have a duty to the realm but he also has a duty to his daughter and heir. Did he bring her along on the march with the express purpose of burning her if things went south? As an insurance plan? If so, that's an extraordinary level of betrayal. If not, and he brought her along to protect her, then that's clearly also a betrayal. 

 

The march south in a blizzard was Stannis' decision. The protection of his stock and the maintenance of his camp was his responsibility and as such their burning and the inefficiency of the sentries is his failure. Does his daughter deserve to burn for his own inadequacy? For his own failure? 

 

What's truly going to break Stannis is when he realises that he isn't Azor Ahai. That he isn't some mythical being destined to save the world. That he sacrificed his daughter for naught.

[Han Shot First]

 

 

But this is nothing new to me, I haven't met a single war veteran that I didn't argue with. I don't expect you to understand how Dany is ten times more powerful as figure than Stannis. As people like Gandhi and Martin Luther will be always better than people like Napoleon. I don't think I need to tell you which one is Stannis.
 

 

O/T but Martin Luther isn't the best example. He was a rabid anti-semite who advocated for something very much like the Holocaust a few centuries before the Nazis put it into practice, in a work called  On the Jews and Their Lies. In it he called for the removal of legal protection for Jews, their seizure of money and property, for their books and synagogues to be destroyed, and for them to be drafted into forced labor, and murdered. The Nazis cited it as a major influence and displayed it prominently during the Nuremberg rallies.

 

Luther was one of history's villains, not one of its saints.

[Blooddrunk1004]

Ramsay Sue and his "20 good men" proved once again how awesome they are.

 

This time the gang managed to burn all the provisions for an army of 5,000, destroy every siege weapon, and set every single horse free in one night, during a freakin heavy snowstorm. Who's worried about the Night's King? Ramsay and his 20 delta force commandos will take care of it!

[Dark Helmet]

 

Greyjoys were quite happy with Targaryens as well. They were allowed to keep most of their old customs in opposed to being subjugated now, after the rebellion. They are hardly mentioned in the show as well because they are so pathetic in their current situation.

 

 

You REALLY don't understand how the Ironborn work.

[Han Shot First]

Ramsay Sue and his "20 good men" proved once again how awesome they are.

 

This time the gang managed to burn all the provisions for an army of 5,000, destroy every siege weapon, and set every single horse free in one night, during a freakin heavy snowstorm. Who's worried about the Night's King? Ramsay and his 20 delta force commandos will take care of it!

 

That was a little ridiculous.

[Lulupab]

O/T but Martin Luther isn't the best example. He was a rabid anti-semite who advocated for something very much like the Holocaust a few centuries before the Nazis put it into practice, in a work called  On the Jews and Their Lies. In it he called for the removal of legal protection for Jews, their seizure of money and property, for their books and synagogues to be destroyed, and for them to be drafted into forced labor, and murdered. The Nazis cited it as a major influence and displayed it prominently during the Nuremberg rallies.
 
Luther was one of history's villains, not one of its saints.

 
Yeah, I tend to forget it. But he was an ideologist who ended up rotten. But Napoleon was rotten as well and my point was about ideology and its role.

[God]

 
This is PURE and UTTER OMGUS post. You failed to point out a single instance where a dragon disobeyed its Targaryen master before Daenerys, therefore no, based on what we know about Valyrians, they treated dragons like loyal dogs, something taught to them by their forefathers.

 

Greyjoys were quite happy with Targaryens as well. They were allowed to keep most of their old customs in opposed to being subjugated now, after the rebellion. They are hardly mentioned in the show as well because they are so pathetic in their current situation.

 

The rest of the houses are utterly minor houses and never really played any big roles UNLESS their overlord house fell. Tyrells were no ones, but once house Gardener fell, they replaced them. If Tyrells fall, Hightowers will replace them. Boltons were nobodies when Starks ruled as well. Did you expect Dany to name all houses of Westeros which are well above 20? She only mentioned relevant and strong ones and she didn't name Martells because they didn't need wheelbreaking. The thing between her and Martells didn't happen in the show and if you claim to read all the lore and still think the show Martells will not support Dany then I have a bridge to sell you and its a very big one.

 

But this is nothing new to me, I haven't met a single war veteran that I didn't argue with. I don't expect you to understand how Dany is ten times more powerful as figure than Stannis. As people like Gandhi and Martin Luther will be always better than people like Napoleon. I don't think I need to tell you which one is Stannis.
 

 

I have no idea what you're talking about on this top post, nor do I care. I will say that any Dragonlord would be quite insulted that you'd compare a Dragon to a dog.

 

Uh, no. The only practice that Aegon the Conqueror allowed them was to hold a Kingsmoot to select a replacement Great House for House Hoare (which had been wiped out during Aegon's Conquest). As well, he had to intervene directly when the Iron Isles nearly fell into civil war. Afterwards, the Greyjoys continually defied the Throne and tried to resume their piracy and raiding antics. Once more, you've proven you have a lacking knowledge of the lore.

 

The Arryns (and the Vale) are 'utterly minor house'? What? This whole statement is full of fail here. I don't think you understand how the nobility works in Westeros. There is nothing minor or unimportant about these houses. The Hightowers are known to be one of the most influential and powerful houses in the history of Westeros. As well, if she named relevant and strong ones, then why did she name House Stark? They've been exiled and officially wiped out. Sansa Stark is the last known surviving Stark (to the world at large), and she's little more than a captive housewife at this point in the show (and in the books, she's been hiding out as the bastard daughter of Littlefinger for long enough that she doesn't even view herself as Sansa anymore). It's kind of mind-boggling how poorly you grasp the nuance of this universe to be honest. Don't need wheelbreaking? Do you even know what that means? Do you literally think that each house has a wheel, and that Dany Sue is going to go to their homes, find the wheel, and break it? That's kind of hilarious. Well done. I give a condescending and mocking laugh at your expense.

 

To get serious, I don't think Dany is even a figure on the Martell's radar at this point in the show.

 

Well, I don't know whether to feel insulted by claiming that War Veteran's are ignorant, or to be insulted at your insinuation of historical relevance.

 

You're damn right Napoleon had more of an impact than either Ghandi or Martin Luther. This is kind of nutty. You're letting your bleeding heart show here. It's kind of funny. 

[God]

 
Yeah, I tend to forget it. But he was an ideologist who ended up rotten. But Napoleon was rotten as well and my point was about ideology and its role.

 

Napoleon wasn't that rotten. And you're insinuating that he was rotten because he was a military man, and that peaceful ideologues are better than those that fight for it.

 

Ideology is useless without practical considerations. Take your SJW drivel elsewhere.

[Lulupab]

You REALLY don't understand how the Ironborn work.

Granted I don't know everything about them, but they were in a much better situation during the Targaryen rule and it did last for over 300 years. If it indeed saves them from their current conditions, I see no reason they would oppose Dany. I mean there might not be a solid reason for them to support Dany as they only "support" themselves, but it if makes their lives better, there is no reason for them to oppose her if not support her.

Right now they are just irrelevant and isolated in their islands, counting the days.

[God]

That was a little ridiculous.

 

Twist! Ramsay is a Spartan II!

[Ozzy]

I wouldn't take the houses that Dany listed in her "break the wheel" speech too seriously or put so much weight on them. The point of the speech is that she's going to aim to change things on a significant level and that's really it. 

[God]

Granted I don't know everything about them, but they were in a much better situation during the Targaryen rule and it did last for over 300 years. If it indeed saves them from their current conditions, I see no reason they would oppose Dany. I mean there might not be a solid reason for them to support Dany as they only "support" themselves, but it if makes their lives better, there is no reason for them to oppose her if not support her.

Right now they are just irrelevant and isolated in their islands, counting the days.

 

As was said, you know nothing of the Ironborn or their traditions. Or the Greyjoys. Or the Targaryens. 

[Han Shot First]

Twist! Ramsay is a Spartan II!

 

If they wanted Ramsay to throw a wrench in Stannis' works, it might have been better to have Stannis' army still on the move towards Winterfell, with Ramsay's men felling trees and erecting barricades ahead of it on the road to slow their march. It would be much more believable and wouldn't require ninjas equipped with plot armor.