11084 réponses à ce sujet

[God]

I don't know? Storm didn't let them fly? Thunderstrike? Heck the whole thing could be a disaster of magic and not a natural sort of doom.

 

Also why do you defend Stannis like his attorney? My argument is Westeros needs an ideologist, therefore I pick Dany with the knowledge that greater conquers before him did not fare well when sat on the throne. We tend to have pessimistic views that ideology is doomed to fail yet when you look back at history and significant events, it was always an ideologist and/or a group of them who inspired it or made it happen. 

 

Martyr's tend to do that. At the end of the day, let the dreamers (the ideologues and ideologists) dream, let the conquerors conquer, and let the bureaucrats rule. 

 

My argument is that Westeros doesn't need an ideologist. They need a leader. A proactive one whose willing to take action in defense of the realm from the threat coming South. And one who will take charge and lead the realm in rebuilding later.

 

Therefore, I pick Stannis. I defend Stannis because I don't have time for ideologists who start crying at the plight of the people, who do stupid things like following their heart, or go charging in recklessly because they think that they're better than everyone else to the point where they are disgusted by other people's customs and traditions when they themselves are a foreigner. I defend Stannis because I believe in practical men who recognize duty, to do what needs to be done, to lead with a decisive hand that puts the realm back on the track for greatness.

[Dark Helmet]

Granted I don't know everything about them, but they were in a much better situation during the Targaryen rule and it did last for over 300 years. If it indeed saves them from their current conditions, I see no reason they would oppose Dany. I mean there might not be a solid reason for them to support Dany as they only "support" themselves, but it if makes their lives better, there is no reason for them to oppose her if not support her.

Right now they are just irrelevant and isolated in their islands, counting the days.

 

Lulu plz.

 

You REALLY need to start learing the lore if you're going to blather on like this.

[Lulupab]

I have no idea what you're talking about on this top post, nor do I care. I will say that any Dragonlord would be quite insulted that you'd compare a Dragon to a dog.

 

Uh, no. The only practice that Aegon the Conqueror allowed them was to hold a Kingsmoot to select a replacement Great House for House Hoare (which had been wiped out during Aegon's Conquest). As well, he had to intervene directly when the Iron Isles nearly fell into civil war. Afterwards, the Greyjoys continually defied the Throne and tried to resume their piracy and raiding antics. Once more, you've proven you have a lacking knowledge of the lore.

 

The Arryns (and the Vale) are 'utterly minor house'? What? This whole statement is full of fail here. I don't think you understand how the nobility works in Westeros. There is nothing minor or unimportant about these houses. The Hightowers are known to be one of the most influential and powerful houses in the history of Westeros. As well, if she named relevant and strong ones, then why did she name House Stark? They've been exiled and officially wiped out. Sansa Stark is the last known surviving Stark (to the world at large), and she's little more than a captive housewife at this point in the show (and in the books, she's been hiding out as the bastard daughter of Littlefinger for long enough that she doesn't even view herself as Sansa anymore). It's kind of mind-boggling how poorly you grasp the nuance of this universe to be honest. Don't need wheelbreaking? Do you even know what that means? Do you literally think that each house has a wheel, and that Dany Sue is going to go to their homes, find the wheel, and break it? That's kind of hilarious. Well done. I give a condescending and mocking laugh at your expense.

 

To get serious, I don't think Dany is even a figure on the Martell's radar at this point in the show.

 

Well, I don't know whether to feel insulted by claiming that War Veteran's are ignorant, or to be insulted at your insinuation of historical relevance.

 

You're damn right Napoleon had more of an impact than either Ghandi or Martin Luther. This is kind of nutty. You're letting your bleeding heart show here. It's kind of funny. 

 

When did the Vale's army left the Vale though? They did send some reinforcement but they don't meddle in business of others as long as others do the same.

 

I didn't say war veterans are ignorant. They tend to have military ideas which really have no place outside of military. How many developed country leaders you know of, who are war veterans? Close to none. Sure we have many generals in top of chains, but the skills of politics and diplomacy are completely different therefore I as latter will never agree with you on any matter regarding leadership. 

 

What was Napoleon impact exactly? He left his rotten corpse after he died and nothing else. He was a villain who was a hero first, but once he had power he failed. Gandhi on the other hand changed a nation forever from its very cores. Napoleon is only remembered because of his strategy skills, he was cruel, ruthless and had zero love from public and had to enforce his rule. An inevitable fate for Stannis.

 

People like Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi > ANY military figure. Even god didn't send warriors, he sent ideologists. And all of them had their own considerations.

 

At this point I can see the desperateness here. You do know for a fact that Dany will comeback to Westeros, her story is being told for a reason and she is more likely to sit on iron throne than Stannis. 

 

Also stop with the nitpicking, Dragons are even more loyal than dogs. I was comparing their loyalty to each other, not their bodies.

[mousestalker]

Robert was a usurper, but he was also a rightful king. He took the throne through conquest, forced the remnants of the Targaryens to flee Westeros entirely (thus forfeiting any legal claim to Westeros or the Iron Throne), and was able to win over many of his former enemies who supported the Targaryens. As well, the Targaryens weren't entirely free of wrong-doing here. The Mad King was, well, quite mad, especially in how he had Lord Stark and Brandon Stark executed, quite injustly.
 
Stannis is not a power mad fool. He sacrificed his daughter to escape a blizzard that was only going to get worse as Winter rolled in (predicted to be one of the worst, if not THE worst winters in the history of the lore), and so that his army and powerbase could survive. 
 
You're condemning him because he acted. Honestly, there's no point engaging you here because you don't want him to succeed, no matter what he does. There's nothing he can do that's right. I don't think you quite understand how this world works, and you certainly don't understand the values of pragmatism.
 
Stannis did the smart thing, by burning the one person who loved him. The right thing. It's not about power or ambition, it's about duty.
 
Think with your head, not with your heart.

If you want to indulge your fantasies and not face the facts, I will not stop you. Stannis is not the destined king. Stannis will never be the king. Stannis is a wannabe.

Dany might be the Queen. Littlefinger could be King, but Stannis? Never.

[Dark Helmet]

People like Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi > ANY military figure. Even god didn't send warriors, he sent ideologists. And all of them had their own considerations.

 

 

Julius Caesar, Cyrus the Great, Sargon, Gengis Khan, All military and political leaders with a bigger impact than ANYONE you listed.

 

Get some perspective Lulu. Your flailing is sad.

[Lulupab]

Martyr's tend to do that. At the end of the day, let the dreamers (the ideologues and ideologists) dream, let the conquerors conquer, and let the bureaucrats rule. 

 

My argument is that Westeros doesn't need an ideologist. They need a leader. A proactive one whose willing to take action in defense of the realm from the threat coming South. And one who will take charge and lead the realm in rebuilding later.

 

Therefore, I pick Stannis. I defend Stannis because I don't have time for ideologists who start crying at the plight of the people, who do stupid things like following their heart, or go charging in recklessly because they think that they're better than everyone else to the point where they are disgusted by other people's customs and traditions when they themselves are a foreigner. I defend Stannis because I believe in practical men who recognize duty, to do what needs to be done, to lead with a decisive hand that puts the realm back on the track for greatness.

 

But what is the limit of things you will do "for your cause". I can't help but to relate Anders and Stannis to each other. As much as I hate what fate has done to Anders, its a fact. I can defend Anders even more relentless than you do Stannis, but I do it from neutral viewpoint and I do not believe what he did was justified. Wasn't he also a "Martyr"? Because he definitely was if killed. He even had an ability named "Martyr" but that's beside the point.

 

Dany is perhaps hardened Leliana, I can definitely see the relation. She started as soft like her but them got the grasp of it. They are both idealists who have seen war and hardship and care for common folk but are not afraid of bloodshed of everything else fails. And bu everything I mean honest attempts of solving it peacefully before violence.

 

So, I think we can both admit to the fact that if Dany sits on the throne and Stannis is her war adviser/general, its the best outcome. But since its not possible, we can always find another strategist, but a leader like Dany is pretty rare since these sort of people rarely get a chance to rule.

[Han Shot First]

If you want to indulge your fantasies and not face the facts, I will not stop you. Stannis is not the destined king. Stannis will never be the king. Stannis is a wannabe.

Dany might be the Queen. Littlefinger could be King, but Stannis? Never.

 

I'm a fan of book Stannis, and was a fan of TV series Stannis until he burned Shireen. But I never for a moment thought he'd end up as king at series end. Considering at least two out of three of the closest thing the series has to protagonists are Targaryens, and possibly all three if some of the speculation about Tyrion is true, I always expected that the series would end with the reestablishment of House Targaryen as Westeros' monarchs.

[Dark Helmet]

So, I think we can both admit to the fact that if Dany sits on the throne and Stannis is her war adviser/general, its the best outcome. But since its not possible, we can always find another strategist, but a leader like Dany is pretty rare since these sort of people rarely get a chance to rule.

 

Pretty certain the best outcomes see Dany Sue dead and someone, ANYONE competent and sane on the throne.

[Steelcan]

This is making my head hurt

[Lulupab]

Julius Caesar, Cyrus the Great, Sargon, Gengis Khan, All military and political leaders with a bigger impact than ANYONE you listed.

 

Get some perspective Lulu. Your flailing is sad.

 

Caesar and Cyrus were hybrids. SPECIALLY Cyrus who attacked countries for sole purpose of freeing their slaves, he even freed Jews, there is a monument for him at Jerusalem, look it up. (the Dany comparison here is not even needed to be mentioned lol) Caesar started as ideologist politician and became a commander later. He was in his 50's when he made his famous conquests. Also he ruined Rome by making it dictatorship. I don't need to remind you of the civil war after his death. He had impact, but it was mostly negative, specially after his death, which is exactly what I had in mind. Leaving something positive in the world after you die.

 

How many years Mongols held the lands captured by Genghis khan after his death? Just look at Mongolia now.

 

You want ideology at its peak? Renaissance. Something thought impossible, yet the only reason we got rid of extremism in general, or at least majority of it. Too bad it only affected Europe at the time otherwise there wouldn't be slavery and more wars in America or middle east would be in much better position.

[Dark Helmet]

Caesar and Cyrus were hybrids. SPECIALLY Cyrus who attacked countries for sole purpose of freeing their slaves, he even freed Jews, there is a monument for him at Jerusalem, look it up.

 

He did NOT attack nations for the sole purpose of freeing their slaves.

 

Freeing the Jews was immensely practical. It gave him a devotedly loyal subject people in what was at the time the frontier of his growing Empire.

 

That he ruled with a lighter hand than the Medians and Assyrians who came before him is to his credit but he was NOT some kind of SJW bleeding heart.

 

You know if you don't want to learn anything about ASoIaF's lore that's fine. It's fiction. But you really should stop butchering history like this.

[God]

If you want to indulge your fantasies and not face the facts, I will not stop you. Stannis is not the destined king. Stannis will never be the king. Stannis is a wannabe.

Dany might be the Queen. Littlefinger could be King, but Stannis? Never.

 

He's already King. He simply does not sit his throne. As well, He is better than any of the other candidates for ruling.

[Lulupab]

Pretty certain the best outcomes see Dany Sue dead and someone, ANYONE competent and sane on the throne.

 

What was Stannis doing when he was 18? Enjoying all the good things in life a prince does and getting best training in opposed to being stranded all your life and having a psychopath brother who sold you to a barbarian? Dany at her 18 > Stannis at his 18. Dany just needs to age up just a bit more, both literally and figuratively.

[Addai]

Also why do you defend Stannis like his attorney? My argument is Westeros needs an ideologist, therefore I pick Dany with the knowledge that greater conquers before him did not fare well when sat on the throne. We tend to have pessimistic views that ideology is doomed to fail yet when you look back at history and significant events, it was always an ideologist and/or a group of them who inspired it or made it happen.

Well. You've made as good an argument I've seen as to why Dany should get nowhere near the Iron Throne.

[God]

I'd also like to say that as far as the Renaissance goes, the man who arguably had the greatest political legacy on the Renaissance was man known as Niccolo Machiavelli. Who was a very large proponent for military force.

[Ozzy]

...

 

At 18, Stannis was helping his brother win the crown.

 

E: Technically, he was participating in the rebellion but y'know. 

[God]

What was Stannis doing when he was 18? Enjoying all the good things in life a prince does and getting best training in opposed to being stranded all your life and having a psychopath brother who sold you to a barbarian? Dany at her 18 > Stannis at his 18. Dany just needs to age up just a bit more, both literally and figuratively.

 

Actually, as I recall, he was starving in Storm's End, to hold it for Robert. He was recognizing a smuggler for his value in who he was and raising that smuggler's family up from nothing. He was taking the food stores and contraband he was given by that smuggler to everyone in the garrison, leaving none for himself until all others had received food. Said smuggler was instantly awed at the man's justness and honesty, even after he took 4 of his fingers. Stannis wasn't even a Prince. 

 

Are you seriously stating that a person who doesn't have a good upbringing is better than one who does? Does that mean I'm worth less than some nameless African dude because I had more growing up while all he had was AIDS? Truly, your priorities are amazing...

[Fast Jimmy]

Man, Sunday can't get here quick enough. If only to stop all this nonsense bickering about who deserves to rule on the throne until next April.

[Addai]

Whether it's the "right" thing is debatable. Stannis may have a duty to the realm but he also has a duty to his daughter and heir. Did he bring her along on the march with the express purpose of burning her if things went south? As an insurance plan? If so, that's an extraordinary level of betrayal. If not, and he brought her along to protect her, then that's clearly also a betrayal.

A bit of both, and because Melisandre told him to bring her.

The march south in a blizzard was Stannis' decision. The protection of his stock and the maintenance of his camp was his responsibility and as such their burning and the inefficiency of the sentries is his failure. Does his daughter deserve to burn for his own inadequacy? For his own failure?

What's truly going to break Stannis is when he realises that he isn't Azor Ahai. That he isn't some mythical being destined to save the world. That he sacrificed his daughter for naught.

Yes, he chose to march, because inaction is losing, especially with winter coming on. And I don't think he cares much about the Azor Ahai thing. You can see it in the show when Mel tells him to hold up the burning sword- the look of weary contempt in his face. He's doing it as political theater, but it doesn't mean anything to him. His claim to the throne and the fact that the kingdom needs a leader are what drives him.

If you want to indulge your fantasies and not face the facts, I will not stop you. Stannis is not the destined king. Stannis will never be the king. Stannis is a wannabe.

Dany might be the Queen. Littlefinger could be King, but Stannis? Never.

Why does destiny play any role whatsoever? And I'm not sure how you can state this so emphatically. One thing I do think after reading A Dance With Dragons, Stannis and Melisandre are crucial to defeating the white walkers, which is all that really matters.

[Dark Helmet]

Actually, as I recall, he was starving in Storm's End, to hold it for Robert. He was recognizing a smuggler for his value in who he was and raising that smuggler's family up from nothing. 

 

 

 

Then a few years later he was smashing the Iron Fleet...

[Lulupab]

...

 

At 18, Stannis was helping his brother win the throne. 

 

And he was prepared for it quite well.

 

 

Actually, as I recall, he was starving in Storm's End, to hold it for Robert. He was recognizing a smuggler for his value in who he was and raising that smuggler's family up from nothing. 

 

Are you seriously stating that a person who doesn't have a good upbringing is better than one who does? Does that mean I'm worth less than some nameless African dude because I had more growing up while all he had was AIDS? Truly, your priorities are amazing...

 

He was prepared for it by a family who praise war.

 

Are you seriously understanding that from my comment? Because you and others were literally doing the opposite. Using Stannis's age, upbringing and experience in comparison to Dany's. She is a teenager and thus cannot be compared to a full grown man beyond his 30's (40's?).

 

Based on how they grew up, Dany's achievements on her 18 are several leagues more grand than Stannis's ( on his 18's) who was prepared all his life for his current life.

[Dark Helmet]

 

Based on how they grew up, Dany's achievements on her 18 are several leagues more grand than Stannis's who was prepared all his life for his current life.

 

Stumbling from one accident to the next? Getting her ass pulled out of the fire by miracles and more competent people willing to pay for her mistakes?

 

The sooner she dies the better.

[Ozzy]

A bit of both, and because Melisandre told him to bring her.
Yes, he chose to march, because inaction is losing, especially with winter coming on. And I don't think he cares much about the Azor Ahai thing. You can see it in the show when Mel tells him to hold up the burning sword- the look of weary contempt in his face. He's doing it as political theater, but it doesn't mean anything to him. His claim to the throne and the fact that the kingdom needs a leader are what drives him.

 

Still, it was his decision to march. Making that decision means he has to deal with the consequences instead of using his daughter as "get out of jail for free" card. We've seen Stannis resort to magical shenanigans on at least three occasions now when the going got tough. From shadow babies to the sacrifices. 

 

I honestly think it has gone beyond theatre with Stannis. When you convince yourself that sacrificing your daughter is necessary then I feel that you need to have some measure of a messiah complex.

[Lulupab]

Stumbling from one accident to the next? Getting her ass pulled out of the fire by miracles and more competent people willing to pay for her mistakes?

 

The sooner she dies the better.

 

Stannis was saved by a smuggler, so? And he is completely clueless and would have failed in first seconds if it wasn't for Melissandre and HELP OF A BLOODY GOD.

 

It shows how much people believe in her to try to save her like that. I didn't see anyone trying to save Joffrey, did you? 

 

She was born to be better than mere men. Literally, as she is a Valyrian.

[Addai]

Still, it was his decision to march. Making that decision means he has to deal with the consequences instead of using his daughter as "get out of jail for free" card. We've seen Stannis resort to magical shenanigans on at least three occasions now when the going got tough. From shadow baby to the sacrifices. 
 
I honestly think it has gone beyond theatre to Stannis.

Because he's seen them work. That's evidence-based rationality.

As for the bit about marching- I suppose he should have stayed at Castle Black and let his whole army starve? Good plan.

She was born to be better than mere men. Literally, as she is a Valyrian.

Are you serious with this. The Targaryens were as miserable for the kingdom as anyone else. More, since they could cook whole garrisons alive at a whim.