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[God]

And he was prepared for it quite well.

 

 

 

He was prepared for it by a family who praise war.

 

Are you seriously understanding that from my comment? Because you and others were literally doing the opposite. Using Stannis's age, upbringing and experience in comparison to Dany's. She is a teenager and thus cannot be compared to a full grown man beyond his 30's (40's?).

 

Based on how they grew up, Dany's achievements on her 18 are several leagues more grand than Stannis's ( on his 18's) who was prepared all his life for his current life.

 

How do you prepare yourself for starvation while being blockaded by a royal fleet and army?

 

That's a lie. Do you have any idea how nobility even works? How war even works?

 

Yes, I am seriously understanding that from your comment. Stannis has achieved much better than Daenerys. Because of one reason: He's been productive. Daenerys has not. 

 

Beyond birthing dragons (a questionable achievement given their destructive capacity), what has she done that really helped the world in the long run? Freed slaves? Who were so poor as freedmen that they had no means to support themselves, with an angry and embittered ruling caste to make things difficult for them? Brought down a harsh ruling caste that nonetheless provided stability and peace and economic prosperity to the regions they governed, none of which she can provide to her people? Come across a foreign system and culture that she has no stake in or ties to and decides to change it and judge them morally because she personally is disgusted by their culture? Tell me. How are these achievements? Was it an achievement when she "Liberated" two cities, one of which has fallen back into the hands of the slavers she so hated, and the other becoming a den of madness and violence and plague where there is no leadership at all? She can't even maintain her rule over Meereen. Is it an achievement that she now has united the entire region of Essos against her, with the intent to put her down for good? And to sack and destroy all that she has... sacked and destroyed?

 

All she's done is kill a bunch of thugs. She's done nothing worthwhile in her time. I repeat, Daenerys has done no remarkable achievements in her time. All she has done is make a mountain out of molehills and seriously screw up a region of the world, all for her petulant 'idealism'. 

 

If that's what your idealism, then I'm glad I stick to my warfare.

 

Meanwhile, Stannis ensured that the Stormland's held together in Robert's Rebellion. He ensured the Greyjoy Fleet was annihilated in Balon's Uprising. He ensured the Targaryen's were driven from the continent of Westeros. He ensured the Night's Watch and the Realm were protected from the Wildling invasion. And now, he's ensuring that the North is liberated from the tyranny of the Bolton/Lannister alliance.

[God]

Stannis was saved by a smuggler, so? And he is completely clueless and would have failed in first seconds if it wasn't for Melissandre and HELP OF A BLOODY GOD.

 

It shows how much people believe in her to try to save her like that. I didn't see anyone trying to save Joffrey, did you? 

 

She was born to be better than mere men. Literally, as she is a Valyrian.

 

There's no shame in being saved. Especially when he was just with the man who saved him. Raised him and his family to knighthood and wealth, gave them choice land's on the Cape Wrath of the Stormlands (very fertile lands), and named him his hand of the King and put him in a position of authority, honor, and respect in the royal fleet. 

 

If he was completely clueless, would he have taken Dragonstone from the Targaryens on his own? Would he have smashed the Iron fleet of Victarion Greyjoy, where even Tywin Lannister failed? Would he have smashed Mance Rayder's force north of the wall, even though he was outnumbered 20 to 1? Would he have held under the combined power of the Reach at Storm's End for over a year? Melisandre has power. And that power is useful. But please, continue how Stannis is evil because he isn't Dany Sue.

 

For someone who is a total SJW, this makes no sense. 

 

What if I said that straight people are better than gay people? They're born better men. 

[Steelcan]

Guys if we're gonna talk about awesome übermenschen clearly the Numenoreans have this locked down.

[Dark Helmet]

Guys if we're gonna talk about awesome übermenschen clearly the Numenoreans have this locked down.

 

UGH

[Ozzy]

Because he's seen them work. That's evidence-based rationality.

As for the bit about marching- I suppose he should have stayed at Castle Black and let his whole army starve? Good plan.

 

I just find it as a cheap method to circumvent challenges and negates the need for any real thought on other viable ways to deal with things. Even when it comes to these magical shenanigans, there's no discussion over other various ways to deal with adversity or to attain a desirable outcome. Why was her life necessary? Is the sacrifice of a life necessary? Why not some blood? Why no leeches? Why doesn't Stannis sacrifice an arm or something? Is that not enough for R'Douche? There's too many questions that I don't feel were dealt with or that we saw the characters deal with. 

 

He was in a shitty position no matter what way you cut it. I agree that he had to march but that doesn't change the fact that it was his decision to do so. It was his responsibility to maintain his camp and to ensure that the supplies were protected. 

 

Why did he have to bring his daughter along for that? There's certainly risk leaving her at The Wall but there's also significant risk in bringing her along on what is presumably going to be an arduous trek (his wife too). It's just putting another drain on resources. Given that he decided to bring them along, it was his duty to ensure their protection. 

 

Ultimately, I guess my issue is with how the show decided to portray the whole situation although I doubt I would be a fan of the situation should it come up in the books. 

[Dark Helmet]

I just find it as a cheap method to circumvent challenges and negates the need for any real thought on other viable ways to deal with things. Even when it comes to these magical shenanigans, there's no discussion over other various ways to deal with adversity or to attain a desirable outcome. Why was her life necessary? Is the sacrifice of a life necessary? Why not some blood? Why no leeches? Why doesn't Stannis sacrifice an arm or something?

 

D&D in all their... glory.

[God]

You not liking the Red God's price does not mean that it was wrong of Stannis to pay it, nor does it mean that the Red God has no power.

 

All for the life of a little girl. I'm sure it comes down to cultural differences, but it that's the price for victory, for survival, for prosperity, then I'll give that red god as many little girls as it wants. Provided they're of royal blood of course.

[God]

[Ozzy]

You not liking the Red God's price does not mean that it was wrong of Stannis to pay it, nor does it mean that the Red God has no power.

 

All for the life of a little girl. I'm sure it comes down to cultural differences, but it that's the price for victory, for survival, for prosperity, then I'll give that red god as many little girls as it wants. Provided they're of royal blood of course.

 

 

It does if I doubt in the existence of the Red God and exactly what these fanatics are doing. Like I said, they assume that the sacrifices they're making are satiating or satisfying their god but that's not necessarily the case at all. As we were talking a few pages back, correlation does not equal causation. There's obviously some power that blood magic carries in the universe (well, at least since magic in general has reappeared).

 

Also, a world that needs the sacrifice of young girls in order to be peaceful and prosperous sounds like an incredibly shitty world. Kinda like ASOIAFverse, I guess.

[God]

It does if I doubt in the existence of the Red God. The 

 

Also, a world that needs the sacrifice of young girls in order to be peaceful and prosperous sounds like an incredibly shitty world. Kinda like ASOIAFverse, I guess.

 

If the alternative is worse, I'll take it.

 

I don't think about what happens if I sacrifice the girls in that world. I think about what happens if I don't. That's an ugly enough picture for me to accept the alternative, no matter how disturbing. As you say, the ASoIaFverse is that world.

[justafan]

You not liking the Red God's price does not mean that it was wrong of Stannis to pay it, nor does it mean that the Red God has no power.

 

All for the life of a little girl. I'm sure it comes down to cultural differences, but it that's the price for victory, for survival, for prosperity, then I'll give that red god as many little girls as it wants. Provided they're of royal blood of course.

 

I think all too often we forget that some of the gods in AsoIaF are pretty proactive and have demonstrable powers.  Stannis has seen the results of Melisandre's magic and sacrifices, he has seen the visions in the fire.  He might not like the Red God much, and may show him contempt from time to time, but it is impossible to deny that the power is real and delivers what was promised.  Knowing this, it's not hard to see why he would sacrifice his daughter if an actual god told him through Melisandre it was necessary.  After all, Abraham, celebrated by several religions, was willing to sacrifice Isaac when God told him to, it's just R'hllor's not quite as merciful to call it off.

[Ozzy]

If the alternative is worse, I'll take it.

 

I don't think about what happens if I sacrifice the girls in that world. I think about what happens if I don't. That's an ugly enough picture for me to accept the alternative, no matter how disturbing. As you say, the ASoIaFverse is that world.

 

How do we know that alternative is worse though?

 

This is exactly the kind of reasoning that fanatics (I'm not calling you one btw) use to justify their bullshit actions. That such sacrifice is necessary because if we don't do it, we're doomed. That prejudice, hatred and genocide is justified because the alternative is worse and that these actions are necessary for survival.

 

Like I said, I believe that there is power in blood magic in ASOIAFverse (since magic in general came back) but not necessarily in the narrow and set way that R'hllor worshipers espouse.

[Lulupab]

How do you prepare yourself for starvation while being blockaded by a royal fleet and army?
 
That's a lie. Do you have any idea how nobility even works? How war even works?
 
Yes, I am seriously understanding that from your comment. Stannis has achieved much better than Daenerys. Because of one reason: He's been productive. Daenerys has not. 
 
Beyond birthing dragons (a questionable achievement given their destructive capacity), what has she done that really helped the world in the long run? Freed slaves? Who were so poor as freedmen that they had no means to support themselves, with an angry and embittered ruling caste to make things difficult for them? Brought down a harsh ruling caste that nonetheless provided stability and peace and economic prosperity to the regions they governed, none of which she can provide to her people? Come across a foreign system and culture that she has no stake in or ties to and decides to change it and judge them morally because she personally is disgusted by their culture? Tell me. How are these achievements? Was it an achievement when she "Liberated" two cities, one of which has fallen back into the hands of the slavers she so hated, and the other becoming a den of madness and violence and plague where there is no leadership at all? She can't even maintain her rule over Meereen. Is it an achievement that she now has united the entire region of Essos against her, with the intent to put her down for good? And to sack and destroy all that she has... sacked and destroyed?
 
All she's done is kill a bunch of thugs. She's done nothing worthwhile in her time. I repeat, Daenerys has done no remarkable achievements in her time. All she has done is make a mountain out of molehills and seriously screw up a region of the world, all for her petulant 'idealism'. 
 
If that's what your idealism, then I'm glad I stick to my warfare.
 
Meanwhile, Stannis ensured that the Stormland's held together in Robert's Rebellion. He ensured the Greyjoy Fleet was annihilated in Balon's Uprising. He ensured the Targaryen's were driven from the continent of Westeros. He ensured the Night's Watch and the Realm were protected from the Wildling invasion. And now, he's ensuring that the North is liberated from the tyranny of the Bolton/Lannister alliance.

 
So "productive" in your eyes is genocide, fall of kingdoms and etc... Good to know. This is the military aspect that I hate and you bring into every post. Productive would be stopping wars without bloodshed or too few spilled blood. Repeat all the times you want, it doesn't matter.

 

Entire region of Essos against her? Did you miss the first episodes of this season? The whole Essos is fascinated by her, even a priest of red religion was inviting people to follow her.

 

She has saved ten thousand men with mutilated organ. I'm sorry you don't see this as "productive". Now they die protecting their queen, instead of dying like rabid dogs without penis.

 

Stannis was outsmarted by a Targaryen woman before, Daenerus mother which resulted in her children's escape. He will be outsmarted by a Targaryen woman again, bookmark me. I will quote this when it happens.

[Ozzy]

Stannis wasn't outsmarted by Daenerys' mother. She died before Stannis even began the assault on Dragonstone. 

 

The kids were smuggled away by loyal Targaryen retainers. 

[Lulupab]

There's no shame in being saved. Especially when he was just with the man who saved him. Raised him and his family to knighthood and wealth, gave them choice land's on the Cape Wrath of the Stormlands (very fertile lands), and named him his hand of the King and put him in a position of authority, honor, and respect in the royal fleet. 

 

If he was completely clueless, would he have taken Dragonstone from the Targaryens on his own? Would he have smashed the Iron fleet of Victarion Greyjoy, where even Tywin Lannister failed? Would he have smashed Mance Rayder's force north of the wall, even though he was outnumbered 20 to 1? Would he have held under the combined power of the Reach at Storm's End for over a year? Melisandre has power. And that power is useful. But please, continue how Stannis is evil because he isn't Dany Sue.

 

For someone who is a total SJW, this makes no sense. 

 

What if I said that straight people are better than gay people? They're born better men. 

 

Renly would have obliterated Stannis if it wasn't for the help of demon baby, If you deny this you are outright delusional.

 

Orientation is irrelevant here. Some men are born with better physique and will always have more strength that other men. Equality in society has nothing to do with being born with better traits because in this aspect equality is a lie and doesn't exist. Some people are more attractive and some people are faster etc...  Valyrians are like that, they are born with better traits.

 

The Targaryen army was in king's landing because there was an open war near it and Lannisters who took it, not Stannis. Dragonstone was merely a free capture with few guards stationed after fall of king's landing.

[Lulupab]

Stannis wasn't outsmarted by Daenerys' mother. The kids were smuggled away by loyal Targaryen retainers. 

 

Soon after she sneaked them to dragonstone and gave birth to Dany. She was the reason they were not on king's landing and Stannis couldn't catch up to her when he reached Dragonstone.

[Dark Helmet]

Stannis wasn't outsmarted by Daenerys' mother. She died before Stannis even began the assault on Dragonstone. 

 

The kids were smuggled away by loyal Targaryen retainers. 

 

Lulu doesn't actually give a **** about the Lore.

 

Facts get in the way of worshipping Dany Sue.

[Ozzy]

Her and the kids being relocated to Dragonstone had nothing to do with Stannis. 

 

Man, I don't even like Stannis but come on. 

[Lulupab]

She was a pregnant woman close to birth. I mean come on! Stannis was tasked with killing them and he failed. She relocated her children to dragonstone on time. She could have been interrupted but she wasn't.

[Lulupab]

Targaryens had many cousins, uncles etc... and none were saved. Only children of Rhaella Targaryen survived because she acted on time.

[Ozzy]

What? 

 

When she fled King's Landing with Viserys, she was in the very early stages of her pregnancy. 

 

 

Lulu doesn't actually give a **** about the Lore.

 

Facts get in the way of worshipping Dany Sue.

 

I'm starting to realise.

[Lulupab]

What? 

 

When she fled King's Landing with Viserys, she was in the very early stages of her pregnancy. 

 

You think I don't know this? She didn't took a plane, it takes months to travel, specially when you have a bounty on your head. 

[Ozzy]

Dragonstone isn't months away from King's Landing. 

 

 

Under Aerys' (!!!!!!!) orders, Rhaella along with Viserys and Willem Darry left the city and travelled by boat.

 

Stannis doesn't factor in at all. By the time he was laying siege to Dragonstone, Rhaella was already dead! When Rhaella and co. escaped from King's Landing, Stannis was still holed up at Storm's End. 

 

I don't even know what point I'm trying to make anymore. 

[Lulupab]

Under Aerys' (!!!) orders, Rhaella along with Viserys and Willem Darry left the city and travelled by boat.

 

What?

 

Was he even sane enough to make such decision? 

 

This is just an opinion on my part, since the "Targaryen madness" hasn't effected any of the female members. Not counting Viserying who could be just damaged due to their very hard life, there are 4 known mad Targaryens, all of which are male. And in case of Rhaella she pretty much hid Aerys's madness from the eyes of public as long as she could, in hopes of his death before a disaster. She seems quite capable to me.

[Blooddrunk1004]

Lol at all Stannis arguements, all i can say about him:

book version = awesome

series version = crap