I wasn't- I was kind of enjoying this season and even defending the show occasionally. But the stupid has caught up with it and I can no longer deny what the haters were saying.Judging from the current state of this thread, everyone seems to be just hatewatching at this point.
If anything, it gives me a greater appreciation for GRRM and for how well constructed ASOIAF is. I certainly have gripes with how he's handled things (particularly cliffhanger central in ADWD) but it's a much more consistent and solid piece of work as a whole.
I recognise that such a thing can't be translated wholesale to the screen and that sacrifices have to be made in terms of cuts and the like. The unnecessary and avoidable changes are what bug me because they really serve to illustrate the butterfly effect in action. That and the abundance of cheap shocks and bright lights that D&D seem to have fallen back on this season.
I'll be watching the show when it comes back on in April though because I'm a glutton for punishment (and I enjoy it generally). I love the world, I love the cast and I love the spectacle.
So... I did a thing... I'm so going to get pwnd for this.
So... I did a thing... I'm so going to get pwnd for this.
Spoiler
If you stare intently at the pool of blood it looks like it's constantly growing.
What does her oath to Catelyn have to do with Renly? They're not mutually exclusive, lol.
She can still be carrying on a torch for revenge while helping Catelyn do her thing.
Catelyn said it flat out that Renly was being a traitor when he proclaimed himself king. Brienne supports this by declaring for Catelyn.
Catelyn said it flat out that Renly was being a traitor when he proclaimed himself king. Brienne supports this by declaring for Catelyn.
What? Pledging your sword to someone is tacit approval of everything they believe?
She was a sworn Kingsguard to Renly Baratheon. She watched him get murdered by a shadow right before her very eyes. She was then blamed for said murder and the guards tried to have her killed. What would have happened if she died? It would have mattered naught to Stannis. He was butchering his brother and to hell with the fallout. That isn't just.
Stannis is entirely responsible for this chain of events.
Of course she is justified in her quest for revenge. If we're considering revenge a just cause at all. I think you're taking things to a meta level that doesn't begin to appreciate or recognise personal connections and conflict.
Sure, it hardly matters in the "context of the universe" but then almost the entirety of the plot and character interactions don't matter in that sense either. It matters to Brienne and that's what's relevant in this whole mess.
And said oath is 1) no longer necessary as Renly is dead, and 2) false anyway, as Renly was never the King. It's not Stannis' fault that she was blamed for Renly's death. What would have happened had she died? Unknown, and not relevant. As well, he was entirely just in sanctioning Renly's death: Renly was a usurper trying to steal Stannis' rightful and legal inheritance, and was threatening to kill him to do so. Stannis' had to do something. Killing Renly was the only just action that could have abounded. Renly deserved it. Stannis was doing his duty. Renly was being selfish.
No, she's not justified at all. She's supporting a man who was never King, even after his death (and her subsequent allegiance to another dynasty which she acknowledges is illegal). In this case, her revenge is unjust. Her seeking revenge was never just. I'm taking things to a level that doesn't account for those, because those ideas of personal conflict and connection have no place (and should have no place) or relevance in the context of legality and justness. Her loving Renly does not make Stannis a bad man for killing him. Her inability to see Renly's own unjustness (usurping a crown meant for his brother) is at the core of this issue as well. How is she being just for supporting an unjust man?
Especially since she's breaking her oath to Catelyn (and to Jaime) to protect and watch over Sansa (who still lives) to take her unjust revenge. It's not making her sympathetic. It makes the name of her sword an irony.
Catelyn said it flat out that Renly was being a traitor when he proclaimed himself king. Brienne supports this by declaring for Catelyn.
What does that have to do with anything? Brienne pledging to support Catelyn doesn't mean that she agrees with her sentiments regarding Renly.
And said oath is 1) no longer necessary as Renly is dead, and 2) false anyway, as Renly was never the King. It's not Stannis' fault that she was blamed for Renly's death. What would have happened had she died? Unknown, and not relevant. As well, he was entirely just in sanctioning Renly's death: Renly was a usurper trying to steal Stannis' rightful and legal inheritance, and was threatening to kill him to do so. Stannis' had to do something. Killing Renly was the only just action that could have abounded. Renly deserved it. Stannis was doing his duty. Renly was being selfish.
No, she's not justified at all. She's supporting a man who was never King, even after his death (and her subsequent allegiance to another dynasty which she acknowledges is illegal). In this case, her revenge is unjust. Her seeking revenge was never just. I'm taking things to a level that doesn't account for those, because those ideas of personal conflict and connection have no place (and should have no place) or relevance in the context of legality and justness. Her loving Renly does not make Stannis a bad man for killing him. Her inability to see Renly's own unjustness (usurping a crown meant for his brother) is at the core of this issue as well. How is she being just for supporting an unjust man?
Renly was King to Brienne (and to a lot of others) and that's what matters to her. She was a member of his Kingsguard. The legality of his claim is entirely irrelevant and doesn't negate her quest for revenge. Stannis murdered a man she was sworn to protect, a man she loved and cared for. I guess that's what was special about Renly in general and what Stannis could never hope to attain. Renly was able to make those personal connections, Renly was able to inspire love. This doesn't mean he had in him to be King or that he would have been competent had he achieved that end goal. It is important in the context of Brienne's quest for revenge though.
Of course Stannis is responsible for her being framed. If not her then it would have been another Kingsguard or someone close to Renly. It had to have that sort of effect. Shadowbaby surprisingly doesn't ring on the radars in terms of identifying assassins.
Personal conflict and connection are entirely relevant when taking revenge into account. Certainly more than "legality". The act of revenge is "the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands." Stannis wronged Brienne. She is justified in making him pay for it. She believes so at least.
Brienne just went all "you killed my bae, prepare to die!" But that was not the worst part- it was the ham-handed "I missed seeing that candle by just a second! Drat the unexpected but inevitable hand of fate!" thing that really got me.
Oh, and Meryn Trant having to be not just a pedo but an S & M pedo to boot. Subtle, guys. Really tense character drama there.
It's not Stannis' fault that she was blamed for Renly's death.
Sure it is, or at the very least blame is shared between Melisandre and himself. Accidental framing is still framing just the same.
What does that have to do with anything? Brienne pledging to support Catelyn doesn't mean that she agrees with her sentiments regarding Renly.
Renly was King to Brienne (and to a lot of others) and that's what matters to her. She was a member of his Kingsguard. The legality of his claim is entirely irrelevant and doesn't negate her quest for revenge. Stannis murdered a man she was sworn to protect, a man she loved and cared for. I guess that's what was special about Renly in general and what Stannis could never hope to attain. Renly was able to make those personal connections, Renly was able to inspire love. This doesn't mean he had in him to be King or that he would have been competent had he achieved that end goal. It is important in the context of Brienne's quest for revenge though.
Personal conflict and connection are entirely relevant when taking revenge into account. Certainly more than "legality". The act of revenge is "the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands." Stannis wronged Brienne. She is justified in making him pay for it. She believes so at least.
Not to mention, the whole legality thing is questionable. If Stannis wants to play that card so badly, he should go swear himself to Daenerys (fat chance). Much as anything else, Robert's Rebellion demonstrates that there are a million different factors which govern who sits the Iron Throne. Legality may be one such issue, personal charisma (something Stannis seems to lack) is another.
What? Pledging your sword to someone is tacit approval of everything they believe?
For Brienne, yes. She states as much. Honour is everything to the lady.
Doesn't matter, though. I won't watch it anymore. Paying for fan-fiction just feels off. Greatly looking forward to book 6.
Behold the new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch for season 6.
Behold the new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch for season 6.
Spoiler
Reported.
Brienne just went all "you killed my bae, prepare to die!" But that was not the worst part- it was the ham-handed "I missed seeing that candle by just a second! Drat the unexpected but inevitable hand of fate!" thing that really got me.
I like how they are not even trying to hide, that Mellisandre is going to resurrect Jon.
She convieniently arrives just before his assassination (in books she never leaves Castle Black).
Poisoning Myrcella was riddiculous. I mean, come the hell on...How can no one see it right away, when the woman who wanted her dead, suddenly kisses her on the mouth, with literally every person of interest seeing it?
I like how they are not even trying to hide, that Mellisandre is going to resurrect Jon.
She convieniently arrives just before his assassination (in books she never leaves Castle Black).
Poisoning Myrcella was riddiculous. I mean, come the hell on...How can no one see it right away, when the woman who wanted her dead, suddenly kisses her on the mouth?
Just turning the ship around might fix it. It would only take 2 minutes.
I also don't really understand, why they deviated from books so freaking much.
Stannis burning his daughter. Sansa married to Ramsey. Tyrion ruling Mareen. Myrcella being poisoned. Jaimie in Dorne. Varys helping Tyrion rule another city, instead of hiding in King's Landing. Brienne near Winterfell...
None of the characters, except Cersei, Denearys and Jon, are where they're supposed to be...
I also don't really understand, why they deviated from books so freaking much.
Stannis burning his daughter. Sansa married to Ramsey. Tyrion ruling Mareen. Myrcella being poisoned. Jaimie in Dorne. Varys helping Tyrion rule another city, instead of hiding in King's Landing. Brienne near Winterfell...
None of the characters, except Cersei, Denearys and Jon, are where they're supposed to be...
Depends on a few factors. Personally, I think some of it can be attributed to dislike of Feast and Dance compared to the first three. Especially early on in the season, people kept mentioning how slow Season 5 was moving (especially compared to S4). That's essentially books 4 and 5 in a nut shell: all build up, little pay off.
Many plot lines in the books also move along too slowly or just don't get anything done. Jaime in the Riverlands, Tyrion wandering Essos and never meeting Daenerys, etc. As it stands, I was hoping we would cut out Daenerys being found by a Khalasar and jump to Tyrion inviting her to invade Westeros. South Park captures this perfectly: "The Dragons? Oh don't worry they're coming!" for five seasons/books ad infinitum.
Basically, I think the plot in the books is WAY out of hand. A writer can do that with a series of novels. A show with a cast and crew that has to be coordinated - I don't think they have as much leeway, and they need to start bringing things to a close.
Considering how far afield TrueBlood ran, things are right on track in GoT.
I bet they still just write their own story to milk it for a few more seasons, though.
I also don't really understand, why they deviated from books so freaking much.
Stannis burning his daughter. Sansa married to Ramsey. Tyrion ruling Mareen. Myrcella being poisoned. Jaimie in Dorne. Varys helping Tyrion rule another city, instead of hiding in King's Landing. Brienne near Winterfell...
None of the characters, except Cersei, Denearys and Jon, are where they're supposed to be...
And they changed Jon's story significantly, too- inexplicably, to me, except for the fact that they just didn't like GRRM's story that much.
Basically, I think the plot in the books is WAY out of hand. A writer can do that with a series of novels. A show with a cast and crew that has to be coordinated - I don't think they have as much leeway, and they need to start bringing things to a close.
One thing I'm curious about is how this all going to resolve (which I suppose is pretty common). With the build up we've had in the books/show, I'm half-expecting to learn Jon's parentage, have him marry Daenerys, and the two of them +1 other will ride Dragons into glorious battle against the Others.
But I'm also not sure that's the most interesting story-telling route for them to go. With Martin's desire to break audience expectations/tropes and the general nihilism of his universe, I kind of like the idea of Jon being the prophesied hero, who is now dead, Westeros is as a result doomed, and the Others trample the Kingdom. At the least, I think it's more in keeping with spirit of the books/show, even if it would leave many unsatisfied. Or Jon's mother really was just a tavern wench. 
One thing I'm curious about is how this all going to resolve (which I suppose is pretty common). With the build up we've had in the books/show, I'm half-expecting to learn Jon's parentage, have him marry Daenerys, and the two of them +1 other will ride Dragons into glorious battle against the Others.
But I'm also not sure that's the most interesting story-telling route for them to go. With Martin's desire to break audience expectations/tropes and the general nihilism of his universe, I kind of like the idea of Jon being the prophesied hero, who is now dead, Westeros is as a result doomed, and the Others trample the Kingdom. At the least, I think it's more in keeping with spirit of the books/show, even if it would leave many unsatisfied. Or Jon's mother really was just a tavern wench.
It won't be Dragons vs the others. Its dragons AND the WW vs humanity. The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. A song is harmony. Harmony between the two of them.
The real villain here is the Lord of Light\Bloodraven. He is the one pulling the strings. He can resurrect things, protect things from fire, and all that. Like what happened to Dany when her dragons got born. She didn't get a scratch, yet we hear about Targaryans being burned to death all the time. The only explanation given is that she is a true dragon. But those are her words, and they are based on nothing.
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