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[Brockololly]

I think the books at least generally do a good job of simultaneously jerking your heart out and stomping on it and then lighting it on fire, but usually when those soul crushing moments come there are some other little cool moments to take heart in.

Like when I first read GoT, I wanted to stop after Ned's death and something else yet to be seen on the show, but then you have two other totally awesome moments that keep things moving and are totally badass.

I just hope these 2 totally badass moments pan out next episode...considering one might require some CG and special effects

And who knew Bronn could sing?

Modifié par Brockololly, 13 juin 2011 - 10:51 .

[SarEnyaDor]

Been gone a while due to internet suckiness... I am a little disappointed with last night's episode.

The first time all season, really. I was upset that they short-changed Tyrion's first war effort and how he got hurt. I mean, I am sure they figured let's axe out these couple of battle scenes and save a bundle of money, but I felt he got cheated. Also disliked Shay. A lot. Not even in the same ballpark as my mental image. Another first.

Going to go read everything I missed in this thread now, just had to get that off my chest.

[Costin_Razvan]

I think of Ned going free and I think of scene where he goes north surrounded by Lannister men with Sansa and Arya. I think of a scene where Robb's men surround them and Ned meets them again. I think of a scene where Catelyn would sooner stab herself in the chest then allow him to take the black and with Robb backing her, especially with Jaime as their hostage to use as leverage.

The one moment where his honor was needed the most was the moment when he decided to save Sansa. If he had sacrificed her then Catelyn would have gladly given him in exchange for Jaime.

[Alpha-Centuri]

Thing is, I think its more honorable to save your daughter by sacrificing your own image for her. The Greeks had it right with the poem of Antigone; you take care of your family first and foremost. Duty and honor is pointless without it.

Ned did do the right thing. Even if it was the wrong thing, if that makes sense. If not, I'll try and break it down and be clearer

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...
And who knew Bronn could sing?

Heh, nice find.  Bronn is turning out to be such a great character.  I didn't take much notice of him in the book, but he and Peter Dinklage are having a lot of fun, you can tell.

[Costin_Razvan]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Thing is, I think its more honorable to save your daughter by sacrificing your own image for her. The Greeks had it right with the poem of Antigone; you take care of your family first and foremost. Duty and honor is pointless without it.

Ned did do the right thing. Even if it was the wrong thing, if that makes sense. If not, I'll try and break it down and be clearer

That's no honor, that's being selfish.

[naughty99]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Also disliked Shay. A lot. Not even in the same ballpark as my mental image. Another first.

really? I actually didn't imagine her as being quite so beautiful when reading the novels. The actress playing her is smoking hot IMO.

BTW, anyone who misses Ned will probably enjoy this movie I watched on Netflix yesterday:

(not sure if you can link directly to Netflix movies

[Alpha-Centuri]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Thing is, I think its more honorable to save your daughter by sacrificing your own image for her. The Greeks had it right with the poem of Antigone; you take care of your family first and foremost. Duty and honor is pointless without it.

Ned did do the right thing. Even if it was the wrong thing, if that makes sense. If not, I'll try and break it down and be clearer

That's no honor, that's being selfish.

Correct me if this isn't your stance. Sacraficing your dignity to save the people you love and prevent war (it would have, if Joff didn't execute him) is selfish. Yet, damning the realm into war (if you haven't read the books, its brutal) so that you die with some sense of self-righteousness and defiantness is honorable.

We'll agree to disagree.

Ned was my favorite character because he had tons amongst tons of honor, and he didn't let it get in the way of trying to save the people he loved. Even if he had naught to show for it.

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 14 juin 2011 - 12:47 .

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ah so the fool finally died.

I never could believe I could hate a character played by Sean Bean...but eh having read the books long before the series even came out all I can say is Ned deserved what he got. Honor has no value in politics...and his honor got him killed, a reviewer once said that he was playing checkers on a chessboard and expecting everyone to do the same...and even his final moments he still stays true to that.

Joeffrey's decision....whether or not he was thinking of anything more then giving the peasants a show ( though I doubt the boy can even think ).....was actually a hell lot more sound then what Cersei was planning. What freeing one of the greatest military commanders and allowing him to run north in the hope that he would keep his word..foolish.

The wise course would have been to keep Ned imprisoned.

Yes, the wise course is to keep him imprisoned.  However, that ensures a war - there's no way Robb would stop with Ned alive and a prisoner.  Having him take the black is the perfect compromise - he's set free, and no longer a danger.

Say what you will, question what you will, but Ned would have gone to the Wall willingly once he gave the oath.  To him, it wasn't done at swordpoint - he was given a choice, and he made his choice.  Once having done so, he would not have changed his mind, no matter if his son and wife were there in front of him.

What Joffrey did was the dumbest thing possible.  With Ned dead, what reason is there to make Robb back down?  None.  At all.  Bring him in line, make him part of the kingdom?  Never happen.  He'd side with Stannis in a heartbeat.  And if you did read the books, you know that Joff is an idiot - he wants to inspire fear, plain and simple.  Anything intelligent he does is by accident.

I also dispute Ned being one of the greatest military commanders.  The books tell us Stannis is better.  Ned is a fine fighter, a good commander, but I'd say Tywin, Stannis are his equal, if not his betters.

Shirosaki17 wrote...

A question about the battle. Was Tyrion knocked out or what actually happened in the book. I just don't see him fighting in a real battle.

Also, one thing I hate about TV these days, is how they always keep characters around that need to go. It's because they want to let the actor keep their job, but I think it ruins the shows when they keep characters around too long just for the sake of it. Also, too many happy endings.

Don't think this was answered, but:  Spoilers below:


















In the book, Tyrion did indeed fight, although at the outskirts of the battle.  He was knocked from his horse from a knight who wanted him to yield, he stood up to do so, stabbing the Knight's horse in the process.  The Knight fell under his horse, and Tyrion - bleeding, and half stunned himself, wound up the victor.  He never did see most of the battle.

[SarEnyaDor]

@naughty99 -> It's not a matter of her being hot or not (but since I am a straight female her hotness didn't have as much impact on me really LOL) it is that she seemed too exotic and too old. In the book she was young and sassy, not foriegn and mysterious. I think the girl who played the one that was with Theon and later did that weird scene in front of Littlefinger with the other hooker was alot more inline with how I pictured Shay.

Poor Ned, always getting screwed over by doing what is right. *cry*

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 14 juin 2011 - 12:58 .

[Fayth18]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think of Ned going free and I think of scene where he goes north surrounded by Lannister men with Sansa and Arya. I think of a scene where Robb's men surround them and Ned meets them again. I think of a scene where Catelyn would sooner stab herself in the chest then allow him to take the black and with Robb backing her, especially with Jaime as their hostage to use as leverage.

The one moment where his honor was needed the most was the moment when he decided to save Sansa. If he had sacrificed her then Catelyn would have gladly given him in exchange for Jaime.

The Lannisters would never have sent Sansa home. Too valuable of a hostage and in Game of Thrones it is very common for highborn children to be taken as hostages to make their parents keep faith. Theon Greyjoy is one such child.

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't see Robb just accepting his entire family name be branded with the stigma of treason. I don't see Robb just accepting to fight side by side with the Lannisters against Renly/Stannis ( There was going to be a war, and nothing was going to change the fact ) after all they did. Sansa captive or not.

Or do you think the smudging your family name is a trivial matter for a strong noble house as the Starks? That the Lannisters would not demand Robb to fight side by side with them...right.

If Ned could have gotten his girls out I strongly believe he would not have joined the Watch but took back the reins of his House and joined with Stannis.

Believe what you will. To me the only moment I liked Ned was when he flat out refused Varys for a moment...before deciding to screw everything for his stupid little daughter. I read the books, I know how this will end...and my favorite character is Danny, for while she has her morals she grows up and learns that morals can go die in a pit when it comes to politics.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 juin 2011 - 02:01 .

[naughty99]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

@naughty99 -> It's not a matter of her being hot or not (but since I am a straight female her hotness didn't have as much impact on me really LOL) it is that she seemed too exotic and too old. In the book she was young and sassy, not foriegn and mysterious. I think the girl who played the one that was with Theon and later did that weird scene in front of Littlefinger with the other hooker was alot more inline with how I pictured Shay.

Yes, I see what you mean. This looks like a setup for something that will be a major departure from the books. There must be a reason why they made her foreign. Maybe she is related to the Martells or someone important from Dorne.

I honestly thought with all the time they were spending establishing the character of Red (I think that was the name of the prostitute from Winterfell), that she was going to take over the role of Shae in some way when Tyrion gets to Kings Landing.

[Addai]

It does seem like they are setting Shae up for something. Interesting.

[Brockololly]

TJPags wrote...
What Joffrey did was the dumbest thing possible.  With Ned dead, what reason is there to make Robb back down?  None.  At all.  Bring him in line, make him part of the kingdom?  Never happen.  He'd side with Stannis in a heartbeat.  And if you did read the books, you know that Joff is an idiot - he wants to inspire fear, plain and simple.  Anything intelligent he does is by accident.

Yeah, Joff just screwed up everything really. If I'm not mistaken, even Tywin says (In CoK or SoS?) what a clusterfluck of things Joff made by killing Ned. I always take Joffrey's idiocy in that scene as just fulfilling his sociopathic teenage power trip to defy Mommy in front of the whole city and show everyone what a Manly Man King he is. He doesn't understand "the game of thrones" that everyone around him is playing while he's just another piece. But out in public like that, no one is going to go against him, especially with the crowd like it was.

TJPags wrote...
I also dispute Ned being one of the greatest military commanders.  The books tell us Stannis is better.  Ned is a fine fighter, a good commander, but I'd say Tywin, Stannis are his equal, if not his betters.

Yeah, I think its mentioned how Stannis is an excellent commander but unlike Robert, not very good with people and not much one to inspire and charm.


Question in the episode too- Ned sees Yoren in the crowd and says something to him- what did he say? Was he alerting him to Arya in the crowd? I know its mostly like that in the book, but I don't recall if Ned clearly saw Arya in the crowd, like its made clear in the show.


And on Shae....yeah, it definitely seems they intentionally or unintentionally made her more mysterious than she is in the book. The Tyrion/Shae stuff just sort of slowed down CoK for me after awhile, so I hope the show doesn't get too bogged down in it, considering all the other stuff going on.

Modifié par Brockololly, 14 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...
What Joffrey did was the dumbest thing possible.  With Ned dead, what reason is there to make Robb back down?  None.  At all.  Bring him in line, make him part of the kingdom?  Never happen.  He'd side with Stannis in a heartbeat.  And if you did read the books, you know that Joff is an idiot - he wants to inspire fear, plain and simple.  Anything intelligent he does is by accident.

Yeah, Joff just screwed up everything really. If I'm not mistaken, even Tywin says (In CoK or SoS?) what a clusterfluck of things Joff made by killing Ned. I always take Joffrey's idiocy in that scene as just fulfilling his sociopathic teenage power trip to defy Mommy in front of the whole city and show everyone what a Manly Man King he is. He doesn't understand "the game of thrones" that everyone around him is playing while he's just another piece. But out in public like that, no one is going to go against him, especially with the crowd like it was.

Manly Man King... lol.  So true.  You can see it in his little hesitation and calling them "weak women."  It's totally daddy issues coming back to bite him in his little royal ass.  Though it's also mommy's chickens come home to roost.  Behold your little monster, Cersei, a spitting image.

Question in the episode too- Ned sees Yoren in the crowd and says something to him- what did he say? Was he alerting him to Arya in the crowd? I know its mostly like that in the book, but I don't recall if Ned clearly saw Arya in the crowd, like its made clear in the show.

Ned says "Baelor, Baelor."  He's trying to point out Arya who is crouched at the foot of the statue of Baelor.

[Obadiah]

Addai67 wrote...
...
Manly Man King... lol.  So true.  You can see it in his little hesitation and calling them "weak women."  It's totally daddy issues coming back to bite him in his little royal ass.  Though it's also mommy's chickens come home to roost.  Behold your little monster, Cersei, a spitting image.
...

That Joff kid looked like trouble from the start. I do not understand Sansa's insistent enamor of him, even after he tried to beat up the kitchen boy and then had her dire-wolf killed. It probably makes more sense in the books. Hopefully she finally sees him for what he is.

[Alpha-Centuri]

These spoilers are for you Obadiah if you want. Not too bad, but it highlights a difference in the books.

Sansa thinks everything is a fairytale. She is only 12 when she is betrothed with Joffrey in the books, which puts her right about the age where girls love Justin Bieber and Zach Effron. Joffrey, as much of a dick he is, is basically Justin Bieber. Girls are simply stupid like that. (Before a girl gets offended, guys are stupid in other ways. There. I'm fair!)

She is enamored to the point where SHE is the one that tells Cersei about Ned's plot. SHE betrays her family, and its because of her he gets executed. She thought Joff would be merciful, but she was dazzled by the glamour of being a princess that she sided with the Lannisters over her blood. It should be noted that Cersei did an excellent job of manipulating her. They couldn't have that in the TV show, or NOBODY would like her because she got Ned killed, and she would not be seen sympathetically by the audience for the first couple seasons. I know I hated her for what she did.

But you'll see that she no longer lives in that fairy tale world. Joffrey shattered it with Ser Ilyn Payne's execution of her father. She grew on me in the books, and in the TV show, she won't have the hurdle to overcome her betrayal with her new fans because she never did it.

[gastovski]

Addai67 wrote...

It does seem like they are setting Shae up for something. Interesting.

The actress playing Shae is retired porn star. Her name is Sibel Kekilli.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1402546/

[fighterchick]

Obadiah wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
...
Manly Man King... lol.  So true.  You can see it in his little hesitation and calling them "weak women."  It's totally daddy issues coming back to bite him in his little royal ass.  Though it's also mommy's chickens come home to roost.  Behold your little monster, Cersei, a spitting image.
...

That Joff kid looked like trouble from the start. I do not understand Sansa's insistent enamor of him, even after he tried to beat up the kitchen boy and then had her dire-wolf killed. It probably makes more sense in the books. Hopefully she finally sees him for what he is.

You know, for as much as I hate Joff in both the books and the tv show, I have to say that I think the actor who portrays him does a marvelous job with him.  He really is every bit the vile little **** shown in the books.  

[Maria13]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

These spoilers are for you Obadiah if you want. Not too bad, but it highlights a difference in the books.

Sansa thinks everything is a fairytale. She is only 12 when she is betrothed with Joffrey in the books, which puts her right about the age where girls love Justin Bieber and Zach Effron. Joffrey, as much of a dick he is, is basically Justin Bieber. Girls are simply stupid like that. (Before a girl gets offended, guys are stupid in other ways. There. I'm fair!)

She is enamored to the point where SHE is the one that tells Cersei about Ned's plot. SHE betrays her family, and its because of her he gets executed. She thought Joff would be merciful, but she was dazzled by the glamour of being a princess that she sided with the Lannisters over her blood. It should be noted that Cersei did an excellent job of manipulating her. They couldn't have that in the TV show, or NOBODY would like her because she got Ned killed, and she would not be seen sympathetically by the audience for the first couple seasons. I know I hated her for what she did.

But you'll see that she no longer lives in that fairy tale world. Joffrey shattered it with Ser Ilyn Payne's execution of her father. She grew on me in the books, and in the TV show, she won't have the hurdle to overcome her betrayal with her new fans because she never did it.

Agree with this, an extremely rude awakening for Sansa.  After which she never sees her world the same again, so she is capable of learning.

And just in case we assume all female characters are likewise foolish, contrast with Ayra who has always seen the world for the tough place it is and whose awakening came with the slaughter of the butcher's boy by the Hound.

And there is some sanitizing of certain characters going on in the series as you point out with Sansa above, also in this ep when Tyrion tells the story about Tysha he omits the detail in the book that at his father's urging he was the last man to have her and paid her with a golden coin  handed to him by Tywin symbolising that Lannisters are worth more than other men...  The books are powerful like that.

Modifié par Maria13, 14 juin 2011 - 08:53 .

[Shirosaki17]

gastovski wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It does seem like they are setting Shae up for something. Interesting.

The actress playing Shae is retired porn star. Her name is Sibel Kekilli.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1402546/

That's funny. She was definitely a star, though. 

[Nerevar-as]

To make the consequences of killing Ned even worse, he would have been really helpful in the Wall once trouble starts.

I wonder if the series reaches that point, what will be people´s reaction to the Red Wedding...

[Eski.Moe]

I reckon there should be two separate threads for this. One with spoilers and one without so that so those who haven't read the books don't have to fear of seeing something that has yet to happen.

The main issue I had with the episode was the fact that they told rather than showed when it came to capturing Jaime for the most part. I don't mind that they skipped Tyrion but I think it would have added some more tension to show Robb getting into the fight and Jaime just being a badass. It's a shame how Jaime's skills haven't really been shown. Makes the impact of a later event less.

[Addai]

gastovski wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It does seem like they are setting Shae up for something. Interesting.

The actress playing Shae is retired porn star. Her name is Sibel Kekilli.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1402546/

Whoa, lol.  So I guess no worries about the folks back home seeing her play a prostitute.

Re Joffrey's actor- he really is doing a great job.  I'm so amazed by the child actors.  It's a crime they didn't submit Maisie Williams for the Emmy's this year- I think she would have had a shot.  Maybe in a future season.

About Sansa- I never hated her from reading the books, just felt very sad that it was not safe for a child to have child-like dreams and naive trust in that world.  They all grow up too fast and with stakes too high.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 juin 2011 - 03:19 .