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HBO's Game of Thrones


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#10301
Rawgrim

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Hey, I'm not a Dany fan at all and I was blown away by what happened to Stannis. It doesn't mean I can't get on here and appreciate the collective wailing and gnashing of teeth of so many fans.

In terms of the writers ruining the source material... I agree that Stannis received poor treatment. But do people forget D&D know the overall arc of the story? Anytime they divert the story, it is to save screentime and deliver (what they think) will be more effective means of telling the story. Does anyone think Stannis will win the war of Winterfell in the books? That he will survive the Attack and have a shot at the throne? That he won't be involved in some type of moral sacrifice that will ultimately be his undoing?

Blame D&D for Stannis' treatment maybe, but blame GRR for his fate.

 

I dunno. The characters aren't getting the fate GRRM intended for them at all anymore. Ser Barristan, dies like a pimp in an alley. In the books he is in charge of deffending Mereen against a massive attack at the moment. Stannis looks to be winning the Winterfell battle, and Shireen is at the wall. No chance Shireen's fate is to be burned by her own father. Mance Rayder is alive and well and working undercover at Winterfell. Add the ripple effects of all that into the mix, and the show has zero chance of ending the way the books will.

 

Balon was the second king to die in the books. On the show he just won the War of Five Kings. The show runners are doing their own thing now. Plain and simple.


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#10302
Dovahzeymahlkey

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I dunno. The characters aren't getting the fate GRRM intended for them at all anymore. Ser Barristan, dies like a pimp in an alley. In the books he is in charge of deffending Mereen against a massive attack at the moment. Stannis looks to be winning the Winterfell battle, and Shireen is at the wall. No chance Shireen's fate is to be burned by her own father. Mance Rayder is alive and well and working undercover at Winterfell. Add the ripple effects of all that into the mix, and the show has zero chance of ending the way the books will.

 

Balon was the second king to die in the books. On the show he just won the War of Five Kings. The show runners are doing their own thing now. Plain and simple.

That might be for best. It will give Martin's book if and when he publishes it a distinction from the series. Which at this point will probably carry on the plot outside of the books.



#10303
Rawgrim

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That might be for best. It will give Martin's book if and when he publishes it a distinction from the series. Which at this point will probably carry on the plot outside of the books.

 

Book 6 will most likely be out during the summer of next year. Read something about it yesterday. Book 7....I dunno. 2021?



#10304
Dermain

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Book 6 will most likely be out during the summer of next year. Read something about it yesterday. Book 7....I dunno. 2081?

 

Fixed that for you.



#10305
Addai

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More likely that Jamie and Cersei are Targaryan bastards, actually. Given how they...get along. Which also means Jamie killed his father.

Any or all three could be. Tyrion's dwarfism could be due to Targ inbreeding. I'm just saying that it's not a crazy theory, there is actual context for the speculation.
 

Hey, I'm not a Dany fan at all and I was blown away by what happened to Stannis. It doesn't mean I can't get on here and appreciate the collective wailing and gnashing of teeth of so many fans.

In terms of the writers ruining the source material... I agree that Stannis received poor treatment. But do people forget D&D know the overall arc of the story? Anytime they divert the story, it is to save screentime and deliver (what they think) will be more effective means of telling the story. Does anyone think Stannis will win the war of Winterfell in the books? That he will survive the Attack and have a shot at the throne? That he won't be involved in some type of moral sacrifice that will ultimately be his undoing?

Blame D&D for Stannis' treatment maybe, but blame GRR for his fate.

I'll do that if and when GRRM also screws the pooch. As of now, as we've already said numerous times in our "gnashing and wailing," we're judging the TV show as a TV show and it still failed hard this season. The fact that they had better material and didn't use it just adds to bewilderment.
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#10306
daveliam

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Honestly, how do you figure that there's 'no chance' that Stannis will burn Shireen in the books?  He didn't actually physically burn her in the show either.  He gave the orders and watched from a distance.  That's not dramatically different than sending a raven with the orders to burn her.  If he starts losing at Winterfell in the books, which, to be honest, you have to admit is possible, why wouldn't he send the raven to his witch in order to 'value size' his bonus by burning his daughter in her god's name?  It's not outside of the character (a guy who clearly doesn't mind 'blood magic' and the strategic killing of relatives) to send this order.  I just don't understand why a few people on the threads think that it's impossible for him to be virtually as complicit in her murder in the books.



#10307
Il Divo

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Hey, I'm not a Dany fan at all and I was blown away by what happened to Stannis. It doesn't mean I can't get on here and appreciate the collective wailing and gnashing of teeth of so many fans.

In terms of the writers ruining the source material... I agree that Stannis received poor treatment. But do people forget D&D know the overall arc of the story? Anytime they divert the story, it is to save screentime and deliver (what they think) will be more effective means of telling the story. Does anyone think Stannis will win the war of Winterfell in the books? That he will survive the Attack and have a shot at the throne? That he won't be involved in some type of moral sacrifice that will ultimately be his undoing?

Blame D&D for Stannis' treatment maybe, but blame GRR for his fate.

 

Personally I never thought Stannis had a shot in hell at the Throne, regardless of what some might think he's poised to accomplish. It's the same reason why at this point I'm bored of Dany's story-line in Mereen (the books are even more plodding in this regard). If that is the route Stannis is inevitably going down, I'm cool with them condensing it much like how I'd like to see them push Dany into Westeros at this point.

 

Although I will say Stannis' death did lack a good bit of dramatic tension.



#10308
Il Divo

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Honestly, how do you figure that there's 'no chance' that Stannis will burn Shireen in the books?  He didn't actually physically burn her in the show either.  He gave the orders and watched from a distance.  That's not dramatically different than sending a raven with the orders to burn her.  If he starts losing at Winterfell in the books, which, to be honest, you have to admit is possible, why wouldn't he send the raven to his witch in order to 'value size' his bonus by burning his daughter in her god's name?  It's not outside of the character (a guy who clearly doesn't mind 'blood magic' and the strategic killing of relatives) to send this order.  I just don't understand why a few people on the threads think that it's impossible for him to be virtually as complicit in her murder in the books.

Been a while since I read the books, but book Stannis is quite a bit more lawful neutral than show Stannis, whose distinguishing characteristic is that he's a hard ass. Again it's been a while but most (if not all) of the people that Stannis inevitably burns are those who've done some evil crime. If Shireen was a murdering psycopath, he wouldn't hesitate to toss her to the flames. 

 

Of course, YMMV on how much Stannis is a hypocrite for employing blood magic to murder Renly in that regard. But then, no GoT candidate is perfect. 



#10309
Dark Helmet

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Fixed that for you.

 

Lies. It will come out in  M41 .999


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#10310
Rawgrim

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Honestly, how do you figure that there's 'no chance' that Stannis will burn Shireen in the books?  He didn't actually physically burn her in the show either.  He gave the orders and watched from a distance.  That's not dramatically different than sending a raven with the orders to burn her.  If he starts losing at Winterfell in the books, which, to be honest, you have to admit is possible, why wouldn't he send the raven to his witch in order to 'value size' his bonus by burning his daughter in her god's name?  It's not outside of the character (a guy who clearly doesn't mind 'blood magic' and the strategic killing of relatives) to send this order.  I just don't understand why a few people on the threads think that it's impossible for him to be virtually as complicit in her murder in the books.

 

Firstly he has no need to do it. Secondly he just made sure she continues his bloodline and his claim to the throne if he should die. Book Stannis isn't dumb enough to wipe out his entire bloodline. Simple as that. Even if he starts losing at Winterfell, he has no ravens to send. Nothing. Everything up untill that point has been done by regular messengers. No time for anyone to deliver a message before the fight kicks off.


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#10311
Rawgrim

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Personally I never thought Stannis had a shot in hell at the Throne, regardless of what some might think he's poised to accomplish. It's the same reason why at this point I'm bored of Dany's story-line in Mereen (the books are even more plodding in this regard). If that is the route Stannis is inevitably going down, I'm cool with them condensing it much like how I'd like to see them push Dany into Westeros at this point.

 

Although I will say Stannis' death did lack a good bit of dramatic tension.

 

Stannis did put aside the throne for now, though. In order to deal with the White Walkers. So in the books he isn't about the throne at all right now.



#10312
Fast Jimmy

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But look at my original post - D&D are looking for ways to get the same end result will less screentime, especially less "climatic battle, million-dollars-for-two-minutes" screentime.

I dunno. The characters aren't getting the fate GRRM intended for them at all anymore. Ser Barristan, dies like a pimp in an alley. In the books he is in charge of deffending Mereen against a massive attack at the moment.

One less huge battle for HBO to pay for and saves the screentime to build up to it. Instead, Meeren is held together by Tyrion and Barristan dies in a small scale skirmish. If you can't see the value of cutting out a major pitched battle for the sake of time and cost, then I think you are missing the point.

Stannis looks to be winning the Winterfell battle, and Shireen is at the wall. No chance Shireen's fate is to be burned by her own father.

If Stannis goes out in one stand, it's one battle for HBO to pay to film. If it's a prolonged campaign, we're talking about multiple scenes over multiple episodes, eating into screentime and killing the budget. If, instead, the show produces reasons his army quickly fails (the desertion of his army after the sacrifice), it lets the entire exchange happen quickly and with the same result.

And who else is at the wall with Shireen? Melisandre and a dead Jon Snow? The power of Kings blood...

Manse Rayder is alive and well and working undercover at Winterfell. Add the ripple effects of all that into the mix, and the show has zero chance of ending the way the books will.

Yes, and Jorah and Tyrion worked for the Golden Company and saw f!Aegon try to lead his effort for the Iron Throne. Dead Plotlines abound - again, screentime. Every second the writers spend dealing with something, there are four other scenes or plotlines from the books that must be discarded. Manse playing a spy that could be served by any other random NPC is a waste of screentime. Better to remove his character in a way that shows more interaction on the core set to characters (namely Stannis and Jon).

Balon was the second king to die in the books. On the show he just won the War of Five Kings.

Again, economy of screentime. What does the show gain by paying attention to the Iron Islands? How does that move the main plot forward? As far as the show watchers are concerned, Roose has blocked their attempts and Balon has lost - accomplishing nearly the same end result with much less screentime.

The show runners are doing their own thing now. Plain and simple.

I'm not saying they aren't... but they task at hand is to fit 600+ pages of dialogue, scenes, plotlines and POV CHARACTER INTERNAL THOUGHTS into 400 minutes of cinema. That's not even a minute a page for some dialogues that have ten or so lines on a single pages, dozens in a single chapter. The scale just don't add up - you have to cut or rework 75% of the material. And you can't do that by not doing things (drastically) different.

But D&D do so while knowing the end game. So while things may not play out the same way or as satisfactory, they are moving it in the direction GRR is, just with an eye on making things work as easily as possible within the constraints they have.
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#10313
panzerwzh

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Honestly, how do you figure that there's 'no chance' that Stannis will burn Shireen in the books?  He didn't actually physically burn her in the show either.  He gave the orders and watched from a distance.  That's not dramatically different than sending a raven with the orders to burn her.  If he starts losing at Winterfell in the books, which, to be honest, you have to admit is possible, why wouldn't he send the raven to his witch in order to 'value size' his bonus by burning his daughter in her god's name?  It's not outside of the character (a guy who clearly doesn't mind 'blood magic' and the strategic killing of relatives) to send this order.  I just don't understand why a few people on the threads think that it's impossible for him to be virtually as complicit in her murder in the books.

Simply answer, he got Mance rayder and two greyjoys there is not need to burn the last of house Baratheon's blood line. 



#10314
Rawgrim

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Simply answer, he got Mance rayder and two greyjoys there is not need to burn the last of house Baratheon's blood line. 

 

I am pretty sure "royal blood" only counts when it is Targaryen blood, though. It has been hinted at in the books.



#10315
panzerwzh

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I am pretty sure "royal blood" only counts when it is Targaryen blood, though. It has been hinted at in the books.

Rently strongly disagreed. :P



#10316
Il Divo

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Stannis did put aside the throne for now, though. In order to deal with the White Walkers. So in the books he isn't about the throne at all right now.

 

I wouldn't say he "isn't about the Throne". A bit more far sighted in terms of the actual threat, sure. But we also see that in the show in regards to his decision to go North in the first place. 

 

My point is that even for someone who's all about the law and justice, his approach to murdering his enemies is somewhat questionable. Murdering his brother via demon babies? It's a very stark contrast (pun intended) to, say, Tywin demanding the Mountain be healed of Oberyn's poison because he has to be "properly" executed, which would seem right up Stannis' ally. 



#10317
Dark Helmet

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Rently strongly disagreed. :P

 

Renly was a Baratheon. They are descended from a Targ bastard AND their grandmother was a Targ...



#10318
Rawgrim

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But look at my original post - D&D are looking for ways to get the same end result will less screentime, especially less "climatic battle, million-dollars-for-two-minutes" screentime.


One less huge battle for HBO to pay for and saves the screentime to build up to it. Instead, Meeren is held together by Tyrion and Barristan dies in a small scale skirmish. If you can't see the value of cutting out a major pitched battle for the sake of time and cost, then I think you are missing the point.


If Stannis goes out in one stand, it's one battle for HBO to pay to film. If it's a prolonged campaign, we're talking about multiple scenes over multiple episodes, eating into screentime and killing the budget. If, instead, the show produces reasons his army quickly fails (the desertion of his army after the sacrifice), it lets the entire exchange happen quickly and with the same result.

And who else is at the wall with Shireen? Melisandre and a dead Jon Snow? The power of Kings blood...


Yes, and Jorah and Tyrion worked for the Golden Company and saw f!Aegon try to lead his effort for the Iron Throne. Dead Plotlines abound - again, screentime. Every second the writers spend dealing with something, there are four other scenes or plotlines from the books that must be discarded. Manse playing a spy that could be served by any other random NPC is a waste of screentime. Better to remove his character in a way that shows more interaction on the core set to characters (namely Stannis and Jon).


Again, economy of screentime. What does the show gain by paying attention to the Iron Islands? How does that move the main plot forward? As far as the show watchers are concerned, Roose has blocked their attempts and has lost - accomplishing nearly the same end result with much less screentime.


I'm not saying they aren't... but they task at hand is to fit 600+ pages of dialogue, scenes, plotlines and POV CHARACTER INTERNAL THOUGHTS into 400 minutes of cinema. That's not even a minute a page for some dialogues that have ten or so lines on a single pages, dozens in a single chapter. The scale just don't add up - you have to cut or rework 75% of the material. And you can't do that by not doing things (drastically) different.

But D&D do so while knowing the end game. So while things may not play out the same way or as satisfactory, they are moving it in the direction GRR is, just with an eye on making things work as easily as possible within the constraints they have.

 

1. Kind of lame to spend a whole season building up to something and then just let it sizzle out off-screen, though. But I guess they needed the budget for those thousands of Dothraki Messiah Dany runs into instead. A real priority, that one.

 

2. Barristan and a bunch of Unsullied got killed off fighting a bunch of knife-wielding nobles with no military training. The greatest swordsman on the planet + the greatest warriors in the realms. Cannon fodder. It was lame. Simple as that. If they had waited a few episodes they could have let Barristan take a speak for Dany in the arena, or something. The harpies had a full minute to throw one at her exposed back while she was having her mommy moment with Drogon, or example.

 

3. Stannis losing isn't the problem. It is lowering his I.Q by 100 points or so beforehand, and summoning a cavalry out of the blue, that was the lame bit. They evn call him the greatest military commander in the realms. And Roose himself is afraid to meet him on the field. Stannis just trotting into suicide like that was just weird.

 

4. Melisandre and Selyse sacrificing Shireen would work, yes. But it will happen without Stannis say so. That makes it way different, since it doesn't involve Stannis having a personality change for shock value.

 

5. The show gains another solid threat by showing the Iron Islands. It sets up Euron and Victarion. and the fact that they have a horn that can control dragons. Pretty darn vital. They also attack the Tyrells and adds pressure to that house. Right now, on the  show, the Lannisters have nothing. The Tyrells have the biggest army. They could have, logically, just taken over KL at a whim. Especially given what happened to Loras and his sister.

 

6. Rushing the Jorah + Tyrion bit is understandable. The Mance bit, too. But only because they stuffed Sansa into Winterfell, which messes up the story even more.

 

7. They could have gained a full hour just by not setting up Lady Stoneheart, for example. The show keeps doing this. Spending time on setting things up, and then just ditching it later on. After season 3 they have completely lost their bearings, and it is completely obvious now. The show writers actually said it after season 3. Their whole plan was to get to the Red Wedding. After that they didn't have a plan. Now its just going from shock to shock, trying to emulate the Red Wedding effect. It isn't working.

 

GRRM is actually almost not involved at all anymore. He said so rather recently. The show is its own thing now, and his advice isn't that much needed anymore. If they know the endgame or not, they won't reach it the way the book intends. The exact final scene might be identical, but the story is completely changed.


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#10319
Rawgrim

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Rently strongly disagreed. :P

 

The Baratheon family has Targaryan blood...



#10320
Rawgrim

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I wouldn't say he "isn't about the Throne". A bit more far sighted in terms of the actual threat, sure. But we also see that in the show in regards to his decision to go North in the first place. 

 

My point is that even for someone who's all about the law and justice, his approach to murdering his enemies is somewhat questionable. Murdering his brother via demon babies? It's a very stark contrast (pun intended) to, say, Tywin demanding the Mountain be healed of Oberyn's poison because he has to be "properly" executed, which would seem right up Stannis' ally. 

 

Renly comitted treason. Stannis gave him a way out the day before. He even offered to make Renly his heir. Renly refused and went on with his treason. He kind of had to do it that way too, since Renly had the bigger army.


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#10321
Addai

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But look at my original post - D&D are looking for ways to get the same end result will less screentime, especially less "climatic battle, million-dollars-for-two-minutes" screentime.

They're failing at character presentation, not just big setpiece battles. Hell, they added a huge setpiece battle that isn't even in the books (Hardhome). So I'm not sure your defense of them quite pans out.

BTW it isn't just butthurt book purists who are disappointed with this season. I've seen numerous reviews saying the same, like the NY Times one I posted a link to here, which states the same thing that we've been saying- this season sacrifices basic storytelling for shock value and melodrama.

#10322
Rawgrim

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They're failing at character presentation, not just big setpiece battles. Hell, they added a huge setpiece battle that isn't even in the books (Hardhome). So I'm not sure your defense of them quite pans out.

 

They had that dungeons and dragons skeleton encounter at the end of last season as well. Where those screaming skeletons attacked Bran and the others. Complete with fireballs and the whole work.



#10323
Il Divo

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Renly comitted treason. Stannis gave him a way out the day before. He even offered to make Renly his heir. Renly refused and went on with his treason. He kind of had to do it that way too, since Renly had the bigger army.

 

Not exactly on topic to my criticism. Given his build up and his obsession with rule of law (Ex: "Ser Jaime Lannister the Kingslayer"), Stannis would properly execute his enemies. 

 

I would concede your last statement if Stannis were all about consequentialism. He uses it when it suits him, aka why he doesn't murder Renly's entire host when some start to support his claim. 



#10324
Dermain

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I could see that, minus the fact that book Targs have white hair and purple eyes, which would make Jaime and Cersei stand out. And I could see Tywin knowing this and then absolutely hating Tyrion - his one true child, something he views as a monster, a failure, a reflection of everything he despises (even though Tyrion is more of a true child of Tywin in personality and skills than Jaime or Cersei combined).

 

I meant to comment on this earlier, but I forgot to.

 

Since it's been heavily implied that R + L = Jon and Jon does not have white hair or purple eyes it would be possible for Jaime and Cersei to not have those two traits if they were actually Targaryen bastards.



#10325
daveliam

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I just think that the Stannis fanboys have built him up so much in their minds that they are going to be let down, heavily, by GRRM.  I've always seen him as a character that's being set up for a major downfall.  I have a feeling that Season 5 was a spoiler for his utlimate fate/actions in the next book.  Of course, I suspect that it will make much more sense for the character in the books than the way it played out on screen.  Just be prepared for Stannis to start taking actions that go against his convictions and for those actions to lead to his inevitable fall. 

 

All that being said, if it doesn't go down somewhat like it did in the show (i.e. Stannis is complicit in Shireen's murder in order to bolster his own pursuit for the throne, egged on by the seductive words from Melisandre and, utlimately, leading to his sound defeat as he overextends himself confidently because of his supposed support from her god), then I agree with you all that his character will have been assassinated by the show.  However, it's too soon to say that because the show is starting to outpace the books.  We just might have seen the hamfisted and heavily condensed show version first (something that we've gotten used to seeing second).


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