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[Br3admax]

This may come as a surprise to you, although I don't know why given that we've already said it several times, but not only does Stannis want his daughter, and only other heir and house member on the Iron Throne if he dies, but she's also miles upon miles away from him at the moment. It is physically impossible for what he did in the show to actually happen in the books. There's really no debating it. It's not something that can actually happen, and given that we have preview chapters that show Stannis very much alive and Theon with him, with thousands of more soldiers bolstering him with more faith than the psychopath, not the charming, cunning, shirtless god and his 20 good men, he's facing could ever muster. Stannis could very well go insane and lose, he'll definitely lose in the end more likely than not, but it won't be going down like this; it probably also won't be to the Bolton's. The show has deviated, and it's not comparable in the slightest, and it's well overdue, not anywhere near too early, to tell. I wonder why you're going well out of your way to see Martin assassinating the character of one of his most popular moneymakers when he could just kill him outright like he does with everything else we love and hold dear. 

[Addai]

I just think that the Stannis fanboys have built him up so much in their minds that they are going to be let down, heavily, by GRRM.  I've always seen him as a character that's being set up for a major downfall.  I have a feeling that Season 5 was a spoiler for his utlimate fate/actions in the next book.

Because there isn't precedent for the show doing whatever the hell they want with characters. See, Badasstan Selmy being dropped by a bunch of perfumed slaveowners in an alley.

But it's apparently a "fanboyism" to want a satisfying conclusion for a good character.

P.S. I will also point out that GRRM has multiple times wagged his finger at the show runners publicly about the butterfly effect with their changes. So just assuming they're following his general script is a dangerous assumption.

[Il Divo]

Of course, YMMV on what's a "satisfying conclusion", especially with a show/book series that is so often about not giving characters what they deserve. It's certainly possible Selmy will survive Mereen. He could make it to the end of the entire series and maybe his death was a method of keeping GoT's kill quota up (hence why the Unsullied are such whimps). Of course, it's alternatively possible Selmy's death is as simple as "dies in the battle of Slaver's Bay" and this was D&D's attempt to condense Essos and (what seems to be) a pointless narrative down.  

 

YMMV also on Martin's writing quality at this point. 5-6 years per book leading to Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons is why I and others feel that there's no chance of him finishing, let alone doing it well. Martin's insistence for example on the future importance of Willas and Garlan Tyrell has me rolling my eyes at this point. 

[Rawgrim]

It is not about ending in a satisfying way, for the characters. It is about characters having had a meaningful contribution to the story before they croak. In the case of Barristan, he does nothing. Remove him from every scene he has been in and the story would go on exactly the same. That made the character pointless.

[Il Divo]

It is not about ending in a satisfying way, for the characters. It is about characters having had a meaningful contribution to the story before they croak. In the case of Barristan, he does nothing. Remove him from every scene he has been in and the story would go on exactly the same. That made the character pointless.

 

I certainly don't think Selmy is a plot critical character as portrayed in the show, beyond being a well-acted bad ass. But then, until Book 5 when he became a character perspective, I didn't think he had much book utility either beyond his "look at my legendary reputation". Even then, given how bland I consider the Essos story-line, I'm being a bit liberal when I say "plot critical", especially if Martin does intend to kill him off anyway via Slaver's Bay or some other means. 

[frankf43]

It would be bad writing tho.

 

His story and character are not done yet.

 

And you know.

 

There is a lady right where he is.

 

That can bring people back to life.

 

She is only good at taking life. She doesn't even believe Red Priests should have the ability to bring someone back. 

[God]

If anyone thinks the show is really reflecting the books angle at this point, just look at the Dorne plot. Jaime and Bronn in Dorne? To find Myrcella, only to have her die? What? Sansa being married to Ramsay? What?

 

The show is doing its own thing. It might have the same endgame, and it might reflect a few key events, but at this point, it's a different story, an alternate to what we get as book fans. They're giving different interpretations of characters and their actions this time around.

[TobiTobsen]

She is only good at taking life. She doesn't even believe Red Priests should have the ability to bring someone back. 

 

I always found it strange that people are so sure about Melisandre bringing him back to life.

 

She didn't even knew that it was possible until "for teh lulz" hobo priest Thoros told her so. She doesn't even have a spotless track record. Her visions are always rather sketchy, there is a rather big possibility that she interpreted most of them wrong and the death of the three kings are not necessarily her doing.

 

The only thing she seemed to be good at was popping out shadow babies to murder people.

 

Maybe each priest has a speciality? Thoros - Ressurection, Melisandre - Shadows, Moqorro - Healing by fire?

[AlanC9]

P.S. I will also point out that GRRM has multiple times wagged his finger at the show runners publicly about the butterfly effect with their changes. So just assuming they're following his general script is a dangerous assumption.

WRT Stannis' downfall, though, didn't the producers explicitly say that GRRM told them about this development, rather than the other way around?

[Rawgrim]

I always found it strange that people are so sure about Melisandre bringing him back to life.

 

She didn't even knew that it was possible until "for teh lulz" hobo priest Thoros told her so. She doesn't even have a spotless track record. Her visions are always rather sketchy, there is a rather big possibility that she interpreted most of them wrong and the death of the three kings are not necessarily her doing.

 

The only thing she seemed to be good at was popping out shadow babies to murder people.

 

Maybe each priest has a speciality? Thoros - Ressurection, Melisandre - Shadows, Moqorro - Healing by fire?

 

The Lord of Light has plans for the people around said priests. That is what is happening. He has one right next to Jon. One ended up bringing Lady Stoneheart into the game. Another one is heading right for Dany. He has Bran by his side already, and most likely the Faceless Men are under his control. It is almost as if there is a nasty plan at work

[Rawgrim]

WRT Stannis' downfall, though, didn't the producers explicitly say that GRRM told them about this development, rather than the other way around?

 

They never specified that Stannis was the one who burns Shireen. Most likely she burns, but it will be without Stannis say-so.

[Rawgrim]

I certainly don't think Selmy is a plot critical character as portrayed in the show, beyond being a well-acted bad ass. But then, until Book 5 when he became a character perspective, I didn't think he had much book utility either beyond his "look at my legendary reputation". Even then, given how bland I consider the Essos story-line, I'm being a bit liberal when I say "plot critical", especially if Martin does intend to kill him off anyway via Slaver's Bay or some other means. 

 

Might not be he is super critical, but he did get his own chapters in the last book, so he clearly has an important part to play. It is possible to give that role to Jorah or someone else, of course, but it still makes Show-Barristan pointless.

[Fast Jimmy]

If anyone thinks the show is really reflecting the books angle at this point, just look at the Dorne plot. Jaime and Bronn in Dorne? To find Myrcella, only to have her die? What? Sansa being married to Ramsay? What?

The show is doing its own thing. It might have the same endgame, and it might reflect a few key events, but at this point, it's a different story, an alternate to what we get as book fans. They're giving different interpretations of characters and their actions this time around.

Then why get bent out of shape? By your admission, the book Stannis hasn't been the show Stannis. He's NEVER been the book Stannis. So why decry that the way show Stannis is portrayed doesn't match anything that's going on in the books?

I've been advocating this for a while and we are now at a point where it is possible, even for long time book fans - don't read the book until the corresponding season is over. If you plan on keeping on watching the show, it's what I would suggest, as my experience has been great by doing just that.

I didn't read the books before the show and, after watching the second season, dove into the first two books. I really enjoyed the show and then got a much deeper appreciation of the world by reading the corresponding book afterwards. It means I don't watch episodes with preconceived notions of what will happen and can enjoy things for what they are, not compare them to the books.


It's really helped me enjoy the show while also enjoying the books. I don't know of any people who read the books beforehand that don't get upset and bent out of shape over the show (but always continue to watch it). Why put yourself through that? Just don't watch the show or make sure you watch the show first (not hard with no more books out currently, but just as a general rule in case Winds of Winter comes out before Season 6).

[Steelcan]

I just think that the Stannis fanboys have built him up so much in their minds that they are going to be let down, heavily, by GRRM.  I've always seen him as a character that's being set up for a major downfall.  I have a feeling that Season 5 was a spoiler for his utlimate fate/actions in the next book.  Of course, I suspect that it will make much more sense for the character in the books than the way it played out on screen.  Just be prepared for Stannis to start taking actions that go against his convictions and for those actions to lead to his inevitable fall. 

 

All that being said, if it doesn't go down somewhat like it did in the show (i.e. Stannis is complicit in Shireen's murder in order to bolster his own pursuit for the throne, egged on by the seductive words from Melisandre and, utlimately, leading to his sound defeat as he overextends himself confidently because of his supposed support from her god), then I agree with you all that his character will have been assassinated by the show.  However, it's too soon to say that because the show is starting to outpace the books.  We just might have seen the hamfisted and heavily condensed show version first (something that we've gotten used to seeing second).

please don't speculate about what Stannis is going to do in the books, without ahving first read the books

[Rawgrim]

Stannis was book Stannis, for the most part, up until he left The Wall in season 5. After that the show went 180 on his character, and even contradicted what they had told the viewers in previous seasons.

[Fast Jimmy]

Might not be he is super critical, but he did get his own chapters in the last book, so he clearly has an important part to play. It is possible to give that role to Jorah or someone else, of course, but it still makes Show-Barristan pointless.

If we had a list of people who died without making an impact to the larger story on the show, it would read like a phone book. People die. Sometimes with purpose, sometimes not. The fact that anyone can drop dead is one of the trademark aspects of the ASOFI series.

[Rawgrim]

If we had a list of people who died without making an impact to the larger story on the show, it would read like a phone book. People die. Sometimes with purpose, sometimes not. The fact that anyone can drop dead is one of the trademark aspects of the ASOFI series.

 

Feel free to list up 5 of them, though. Five characters from season 1-4.

[Steelcan]

If we had a list of people who died without making an impact to the larger story on the show, it would read like a phone book. People die. Sometimes with purpose, sometimes not. The fact that anyone can drop dead is one of the trademark aspects of the ASOFI series.

contrary to what many people believe, most people don't die without purpose in order to keep the story going.

 

Even the deaths in battle are important. ie in the books Wyman Manderly's second son is captured in the first battle with the Lannisters, and that became very important in AFFC.  Or how the death of three Freys who accompanied Wyman Manderly to Winterfell are having massive repercussions.

[DEUGH Man]

I'm still sitting here trying to find a reason to care about Season 6. The only people left are the Boring Brothers, the Lannisters, the Boltons, the people in Dorne and Dany's squad. Who is there to care about anymore? If the White Walkers killed all of them, I wouldn't really feel anything. Like, any emotional connection to this story has evaporated, at least for me.

[Rawgrim]

I'm still sitting here trying to find a reason to care about Season 6. The only people left are the Boring Brothers, the Lannisters, the Boltons, the people in Dorne and Dany's squad. Who is there to care about anymore? If the White Walkers killed all of them, I wouldn't really feel anything. Like, any emotional connection to this story has evaporated, at least for me.

 

Greyworm!!! So happy that chump survived!

[AlanC9]

This may come as a surprise to you, although I don't know why given that we've already said it several times, but not only does Stannis want his daughter, and only other heir and house member on the Iron Throne if he dies, but she's also miles upon miles away from him at the moment. It is physically impossible for what he did in the show to actually happen in the books. There's really no debating it. It's not something that can actually happen, and given that we have preview chapters that show Stannis very much alive and Theon with him, with thousands of more soldiers bolstering him with more faith than the psychopath, not the charming, cunning, shirtless god and his 20 good men, he's facing could ever muster. Stannis could very well go insane and lose, he'll definitely lose in the end more likely than not, but it won't be going down like this; it probably also won't be to the Bolton's. The show has deviated, and it's not comparable in the slightest, and it's well overdue, not anywhere near too early, to tell. I wonder why you're going well out of your way to see Martin assassinating the character of one of his most popular moneymakers when he could just kill him outright like he does with everything else we love and hold dear.

The question is, what counts as "going down like this?" Is the important thing about Stannis that he sacrifices his daughter to the Lord of Light in an effort to retrieve a losing struggle, receives some magical assistance, but in the end fails and dies anyway? Or is it important that he does these things in a particular place, against a particular enemy?

2001: A Space Odyssey comes in book and movie versions too. In the book various things are different. Discovery is travelling to Saturn rather than Jupiter, the AE-35 unit problem plays out somewhat differently, with more space walks required, the final sequence is somewhat different, and so forth. But all of those changes don't make it a different story. It doesn't matter where the ship is going because planetary exploration isn't really the mission, the result of the AE-35 sequence is exactly the same, and the final sequence still results in the Star-Child's return to Earth.

[DrBlingzle]

Personally I think it's a bit pointless to debate whether D and D butchered Stannis and his fate. Maybe in the books he does send the order for Shireen to be burned and loses the battle for winterfell. Maybe he doesn't. We won't know until Winds of Winter is released and then we can debate for all eternity.

 

At least thats my thoughts, anyway.

[DEUGH Man]

Greyworm!!! So happy that chump survived!

 

No one kills the worm! NO ONE!!!

[Il Divo]

Might not be he is super critical, but he did get his own chapters in the last book, so he clearly has an important part to play. It is possible to give that role to Jorah or someone else, of course, but it still makes Show-Barristan pointless.

 

Again, YMMV on "important part to play". Quentyn Martell had some POV chapters and he was utterly worthless as a character and only served to highlight Doran's lack of sense. Generally-speaking the direction of the story seems to indicate that Essos is completely unimportant beyond getting Daenerys her army and getting her to Westeros. Whether Barristan dies in the coming battle ( possible in the books) or to Sons of the Harpy (show) is largely irrelevant. 

 

Barristan may have been killed off on the show prior to the books but his function has been largely the same: feed a bit of information about Rhaeger and Aerys II to Daenerys and to be a glorified body guard. 

[Rawgrim]

The question is, what counts as "going down like this?" Is the important thing about Stannis that he sacrifices his daughter to the Lord of Light in an effort to retrieve a losing struggle, receives some magical assistance, but in the end fails and dies anyway? Or is it important that he does these things in a particular place, against a particular enemy?

2001: A Space Odyssey comes in book and movie versions too. In the book various things are different. Discovery is travelling to Saturn rather than Jupiter, the AE-35 unit problem plays out somewhat differently, with more space walks required, the final sequence is somewhat different, and so forth. But all of those changes don't make it a different story. It doesn't matter where the ship is going because planetary exploration isn't really the mission, the result of the AE-35 sequence is exactly the same, and the final sequence still results in the Star-Child's return to Earth.

 

Picture it like this. Hypothetical situation: We know Han Solo is going to die in SW ep 8 due to a leak. Or something like that. So since he is going to croak, is it cool if he just shoots himself in the head? He is going to die anyway, right? Doesn't matter how or the circumstances around it?