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[Rawgrim]

Again, YMMV on "important part to play". Quentyn Martell had some POV chapters and he was utterly worthless as a character. Generally-speaking the direction of the story seems to indicate that Essos is completely unimportant beyond getting Daenerys her army and getting her to Westeros. Whether Barristan dies in the coming battle ( possible in the books) or to Sons of the Harpy (show) is largely irrelevant. 

 

Barristan may have been killed off on the show prior to the books but his function has been largely the same: feed a bit of information about Rhaeger and Aerys II to Daenerys and to be a glorified body guard. 

 

Quentyn Martell was a vital window into the actions of other characters around him. That was his role in the story.

 

If he dies or not isn't the issue. It is how. On the show he died before he could bring anything at all to the table. In the books, if\when he dies, he will have served some measurable story purpose. Like every other POV character in the books. His story isn't over in the books, remember. He still has a part to play.

[Rawgrim]

Personally I think it's a bit pointless to debate whether D and D butchered Stannis and his fate. Maybe in the books he does send the order for Shireen to be burned and loses the battle for winterfell. Maybe he doesn't. We won't know until Winds of Winter is released and then we can debate for all eternity.

 

At least thats my thoughts, anyway.

 

He has no way of sending messages. No ravens...

[AlanC9]

I'm still sitting here trying to find a reason to care about Season 6. The only people left are the Boring Brothers, the Lannisters, the Boltons, the people in Dorne and Dany's squad. Who is there left to care about anymore?

Arya and Sansa come to mind. Bronn and Brienne too.

[Dark Helmet]

He has no way of sending messages. No ravens...

 

Show! Ramsay and his 20 Good men will go to the Book verse, forge Stannis' handwriting and send it to Castle Black.

 

Then they go to Essos, Eat Dany's Dragons, and seduce the Others.

[Rawgrim]

Brienne is bordering on being the biggest Mary Sue on the show. She has a artifact weapon. Black armour. Kills The Hound with her bare hands. Never really screws up.

[Fast Jimmy]

Feel free to list up 5 of them, though. Five characters from season 1-4.

The Hound - As much fun as Adventure Time w/ Arya and Cleagane was, his role was minimal in terms of the main plot in every respect up until the point the two meet. And the second he dies, Arya runs off and goes to Bravos - what she would have done as soon as she had the chance after Season 3. Nothing progressed, nothing happened, other than wasting time before Arya joined the Faceless Men.

Benjen Stark - First Ranger dies in the first season and accomplishes nothing. Sure, he may have coaxed Jon to the Wall by being a member of the Night's Watch, but that could happen conveyed without seeing the character once. He was brought in just to show the Feelz of Jon Snow being alone on the Wall.

Grenn - plays generic "bro" to Jon at the Wall. Gets killed by a giant. No significance to the larger story, other than "guys in the Night's Watch died in the Attack by Mance."

Rose - the show spent large segements of scenes and episodes of her just to have her be Joffrey's crossbow pincushion.

Old Nan - old woman, dies of old age, not even properly addressed in screen. Where's the significance, guys? What's the point of even bringing her in the show?!!!


These are just off the top of my head. These characters could be removed from the story arc completely and not even be noticed, but appeared in multiple episodes (and seasons) and died to no purpose.


I can keep going, if you would like.

[Dark Helmet]

Brienne is bordering on being the biggest Mary Sue on the show. She has a artifact weapon. Black armour. Kills The Hound with her bare hands. Never really screws up.

 

>Loyal to Renly

>Not a Screw up

 

Pick one.

[Addai]

Then why get bent out of shape? By your admission, the book Stannis hasn't been the show Stannis. He's NEVER been the book Stannis. So why decry that the way show Stannis is portrayed doesn't match anything that's going on in the books?

Because we're discussing the TV show on its own merits, as I've said now multiple times. (Is this thing on?)

"Just don't watch it" is kind of silly advice. I hadn't given up on the season entirely until the finale.

If you don't want to read critique of the show, just don't read the thread.
 

WRT Stannis' downfall, though, didn't the producers explicitly say that GRRM told them about this development, rather than the other way around?

According to interviews, he told them that Shireen would end up being burned. I suspected/ feared that while reading ADWD myself, so I'm not surprised about that, but nothing says that it will be Stannis personally or that it will go down as the show portrayed it. GRRM also said "people will die in the show that don't die in the books," which could refer to Barristan Selmy or him and Stannis both.

[Il Divo]

Quentyn Martell was a vital window into the actions of other characters around him. That was his role in the story.

 

If he dies or not isn't the issue. It is how. On the show he died before he could bring anything at all to the table. In the books, if\when he dies, he will have served some measurable story purpose. Like every other POV character in the books. His story isn't over in the books, remember. He still has a part to play.

Quentyn Martell was a waste of time and served to undermine any sort of legitimacy to Doran's plans of being "the grass that hides the Viper". He existed to die, essentially. 

 

Regarding Selmy: I'd say that's pretty critical issue. A Song of Ice and Fire is essentially the story of Westeros, with Essos serving as a secondary location. 5-6 books in, the fact that we're still wasting our time with large scale battles in a location that doesn't serve any more narrative purpose doesn't bode well. As I said, if Barristan gets offed during this battle which is definitely a possibility, it doesn't do much for the claim that he has a critical part to play. If his death only serves to anger Daenerys a bit, he'll have filled the exact same secondary function as he does in the books. 

[AlanC9]

Picture it like this. Hypothetical situation: We know Han Solo is going to die in SW ep 8 due to a leak. Or something like that. So since he is going to croak, is it cool if he just shoots himself in the head? He is going to die anyway, right? Doesn't matter how or the circumstances around it?

That's not an answer to the question I actually asked. Which was, again, will the particular place where Stannis will do these things, and the particular enemy he will be fighting, matter?

Or are you still clinging to hope that Stannis won't end up burning his daughter at the stake?

[Il Divo]

Because we're discussing the TV show on its own merits, as I've said now multiple times. (Is this thing on?)
 

 

Wait, then why for the last 4-5 pages has every post been "Hey, that's not how it happened in the books"? Because that's been a pretty regular occurrence as I can tell. 

[Rawgrim]

The Hound - As much fun as Adventure Time w/ Arya and Cleagane was, his role was minimal in terms of the main plot in every respect up until the point the two meet. And the second he dies, Arya runs off and goes to Bravos - what she would have done as soon as she had the chance after Season 3. Nothing progressed, nothing happened, other than wasting time before Arya joined the Faceless Men.

Benjen Stark - First Ranger dies in the first season and accomplishes nothing. Sure, he may have coaxed Jon to the Wall by being a member of the Night's Watch, but that could happen conveyed without seeing the character once. He was brought in just to show the Feelz of Jon Snow being alone on the Wall.

Grenn - plays generic "bro" to Jon at the Wall. Gets killed by a giant. No significance to the larger story, other than "guys in the Night's Watch died in the Attack by Mance."

Rose - the show spent large segements of scenes and episodes of her just to have her be Joffrey's crossbow pincushion.

Old Nan - old woman, dies of old age, not even properly addressed in screen. Where's the significance, guys? What's the point of even bringing her in the show?!!!


These are just off the top of my head. These characters could be removed from the story arc completely and not even be noticed, but appeared in multiple episodes (and seasons) and died to no purpose.


I can keep going, if you would like.

 

The Hound protects Sansa to a certain degree. He helps Sansa convince Joffrey not to kill that drunk knight, who later causes Joffrey's death. He also gets Arya to the Twins, and there he saves her from rushing in and getting killed. Ok value in the story.

 

Benjen doesn't count since he can still show up and be alive. His ranging, however, lead to the wight ending up at Castle Black. Jon killed the wight and as a result he got a valyrian sword.

 

Grenn has zero value and hardly any lines. He is a very very minor character, though. He did kill a giant in the tunnel during the siege, so he had some impact there.

 

Roz was an exposition character written purely for the show. No real impact that I can think of.

 

Old Nan tells us about the White Walkers and their background etc. Might have had more impact if the actress hadn't died. She also tells Bran about a certain crow. "Crow's are all liars". Make note of that line. It is true.

[Rawgrim]

>Loyal to Renly

>Not a Screw up

 

Pick one.

 

Loyal to Renly puts her in vengeance mode which is a Mary Sue trait. And Renly never died as a result of any of her actions.

[AlanC9]

Brienne is bordering on being the biggest Mary Sue on the show. She has a artifact weapon. Black armour. Kills The Hound with her bare hands. Never really screws up.

Well, Brienne makes the same mistake that Arya did in the episode. Namely, ignoring her duty for a matter of personal vengeance. Although I guess you can make a case that her vengeance was also a duty, she still missed Sansa's light.

OTOH, no harm, no foul, since it looks like Brienne wasn't really in position to have anything to do with how that played out.

[Dark Helmet]

Or are you still clinging to hope that Stannis won't end up burning his daughter at the stake?

 

Not really clinging when he's 100's of miles away and has no way to communicate with them...

 

Especially when Mel and Selyse people who WOULD be fine with burning her just happen to be AT Castle Black...

[Fast Jimmy]

Because we're discussing the TV show on its own merits, as I've said now multiple times. (Is this thing on?)

"Just don't watch it" is kind of silly advice. I hadn't given up on the season entirely until the finale.

If you don't want to read critique of the show, just don't read the thread.

Show Stannis has long been portrayed as a weak puppet of the Red Witch. This played out exactly to that end in the show - listening to Melisandre cost him his family, his army and his life.

That's not a critique of the show... that's how the show has been portraying him since we first saw him torching innocent people in Season 1. Only book Stannis has given reason not to view him as a power-grubbing jerk who bows to the whispering of Melisandre.

If you are really going to take the stance that you are critiquing the show instead of a pre-conceived notion of how the books should be adapted, you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Time and again, Stannis has been the bad guy on the show.

[Rawgrim]

Quentyn Martell was a waste of time and served to undermine any sort of legitimacy to Doran's plans of being "the grass that hides the Viper". He existed to die, essentially. 

 

Regarding Selmy: I'd say that's pretty critical issue. A Song of Ice and Fire is essentially the story of Westeros, with Essos serving as a secondary location. 5-6 books in, the fact that we're still wasting our time with large scale battles in a location that doesn't serve any more narrative purpose doesn't bode well. As I said, if Barristan gets offed during this battle which is definitely a possibility, it doesn't do much for the claim that he has a critical part to play. If his death only serves to anger Daenerys a bit, he'll have filled the exact same secondary function as he does in the books. 

 

Quentyn died when the author had no more use for the exposition his POV provided. He was much like the prologue POV characters, really.

 

If he gets offed but wins the battle, I'd say he has done something important.

[DEUGH Man]

Arya and Sansa come to mind. Bronn and Brienne too.

 

They are sidekicks, though. You can tell by how they are written that there isn't much of a plan for them, other than to wander around until they become pawns for the main characters.

 

After what happened to Jon, I Snow longer care. He was the last sympathetic character with any kind of real power or relevance.

[Addai]

Wait, then why for the last 4-5 pages has every post been "Hey, that's not how it happened in the books"? Because that's been a pretty regular occurrence as I can tell.

People do compare them, but that is by far not the only reason for the criticism. Those who like the show/ liked the finale try to dismiss criticism as book purists whining.

As someone else in the thread already said, if you're going to change things in the book- okay. Improve on them. Don't make them worse, for no demonstrable reason other than sophomoric shock value.

If you are really going to take the stance that you are critiquing the show instead of a pre-conceived notion of how the books should be adapted, you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Time and again, Stannis has been the bad guy on the show.

Like when he saved the Night's Watch and is the only contender taking the white walker threat seriously? Okay.

[Il Divo]

Show Stannis has long been portrayed as a weak puppet of the Red Witch. This played out exactly to that end in the show - listening to Melisandre cost him his family, his army and his life.

That's not a critique of the show... that's how the show has been portraying him since we first saw him torching innocent people in Season 1. Only book Stannis has given reason not to view him as a power-grubbing jerk who bows to the whispering of Melisandre.

If you are really going to take the stance that you are critiquing the show instead of a pre-conceived notion of how the books should be adapted, you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Time and again, Stannis has been the bad guy on the show.

 

Essentially, this. I think it's fair to say that book Stannis is far more lawful than SHow Stannis, although still having a number of questionable plot decisions.

 

But the show does straight up show him burning his brother in law and heavily consider burning Gendry. The show's placed even more emphasis on the dichotomy of Melisandre vs. Davos whispering different things in his ear.

[Rawgrim]

Well, Brienne makes the same mistake that Arya did in the episode. Namely, ignoring her duty for a matter of personal vengeance. Although I guess you can make a case that her vengeance was also a duty, she still missed Sansa's light.

OTOH, no harm, no foul, since it looks like Brienne wasn't really in position to have anything to do with how that played out.

 

Arya is a child.

 

Brienne actually watched that tower for months, which makes it even more dumb. Not even a thought of gathering some allies during that time? Not even snooping around a bit?

[Fast Jimmy]

The Hound protects Sansa to a certain degree. He helps Sansa convince Joffrey not to kill that drunk knight, who later causes Joffrey's death. He also gets Arya to the Twins, and there he saves her from rushing in and getting killed. Ok value in the story.

Benjen doesn't count since he can still show up and be alive. His ranging, however, lead to the wight ending up at Castle Black. Jon killed the wight and as a result he got a valyrian sword.

Grenn has zero value and hardly any lines. He is a very very minor character, though. He did kill a giant in the tunnel during the siege, so he had some impact there.

Roz was an exposition character written purely for the show. No real impact that I can think of.

Old Nan tells us about the White Walkers and their background etc. Might have had more impact if the actress hadn't died. She also tells Bran about a certain crow. "Crow's are all liars". Make note of that line. It is true.

By that line of thinking, Barristan has significance by showing Joffrey's incompetence with his dismissal. He saves Dany's life when he first meets her. He reveals Jorah's prior espionage. These all affect or give insight into the main plot far more than Old Nan's mumbling about The Others. I didn't even get into the number of throwaway deaths by people like The Butcher's Boy.

Saying Selmy was pointless just because he died and isn't a major main character is silly. That's my point.

[Il Divo]

Quentyn died when the author had no more use for the exposition his POV provided. He was much like the prologue POV characters, really.

 

If he gets offed but wins the battle, I'd say he has done something important.

 

In your scenario, I'd say he did practically nothing. Again, Essos is simply the window into Daenerys' story and will become completely irrelevant if Martin ever gets her to Westeros, beyond getting her an army. 

 

If Dany dies in Book VI and Barristan takes King's Landing himself via her dragons (thankfully unlikely), then I'd have said he had some plot purpose. If he dies delivering a victory in what's become a completely irrelevant side continent, that's not having narrative importance. It demonstrates Martin's habit of treading water, more than anything else. 

[Rawgrim]

Show Stannis has long been portrayed as a weak puppet of the Red Witch. This played out exactly to that end in the show - listening to Melisandre cost him his family, his army and his life.

That's not a critique of the show... that's how the show has been portraying him since we first saw him torching innocent people in Season 1. Only book Stannis has given reason not to view him as a power-grubbing jerk who bows to the whispering of Melisandre.

If you are really going to take the stance that you are critiquing the show instead of a pre-conceived notion of how the books should be adapted, you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Time and again, Stannis has been the bad guy on the show.

 

Not listening to her the first time cost him the Blackwater Battle. A priestess of a fire god might have been handy. She also showed him the White Walker threat and had him go to the wall and defeat Mance. It all went as she said. Killing Renly worked too, and seemingly those leeches worked. No reason to not keep her around for advice.

 

The only badguy thing he has done is killing Shireen. The rest were justice kills, or people who didn't obey his rules. He is king. Not doing what you king says is treason. Its harsh but it is an ok reason.

[Fast Jimmy]

Like when he saved the Night's Watch and is the only contender taking the white walker threat seriously? Okay.

At who's insistence? Stannis did not know of the White Walker threat nor did he aspire to be a prophecied hero... not until Melissandre told him to do these things did he do them.

He was an effective puppet, but he's been dancing to her tune since his very first scene, right until the last, even after she abandons him.