11084 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

By that line of thinking, Barristan has significance by showing Joffrey's incompetence with his dismissal. He saves Dany's life when he first meets her. He reveals Jorah's prior espionage. These all affect or give insight into the main plot far more than Old Nan's mumbling about The Others. I didn't even get into the number of throwaway deaths by people like The Butcher's Boy.

Saying Selmy was pointless just because he died and isn't a major main character is silly. That's my point.

 

Joffrey showed his incompetence anyway. You didn't need a character for that. But based on the show, was it incompetence, though? Barristan croaks as soon as he is in a fight anyway, and his role as King's Guard was to protect Joffrey. Given how the show portrayed Barristan, Joffrey was spot on when ditching the fellow.

 

Barristan did have that heroic intro to Dany, yes. Where some warlock tried to kill her only to never be heard from again. Pure cheese.

 

Barristan isn't the one who reveals Jorah as a traitor. That would be Tywin sending that letter. Anyone who read that letter would have revealed it.

 

It is not that he died. It is that he died without making any kind of contribution. The show writers felt they needed more shock-value, nothing else. His death doesn't even affect Dany at all.

[Fast Jimmy]

Not listening to her the first time cost him the Blackwater Battle. A priestess of a fire god might have been handy. She also showed him the White Walker threat and had him go to the wall and defeat Mance. It all went as she said. Killing Renly worked too, and seemingly those leeches worked. No reason to not keep her around for advice.

The only badguy thing he has done is killing Shireen. The rest were justice kills, or people who didn't obey his rules. He is king. Not doing what you king says is treason. Its harsh but it is an ok reason.

When Tyrion is defending King's Landing, do you think many viewers were hoping he would die? That Sansa would be butchered? That Cersei and Tommen would choke on poison as Stannis' troops just through the door of the Throne Room?

The show has portrayed Stannis as the monster, who uses black magic, human sacrifice and forced religion to succeed. You barely see any of the "because it's the best for the realm" side of him on the show.

[Rawgrim]

At who's insistence? Stannis did not know of the White Walker threat nor did he aspire to be a prophecied hero... not until Melissandre told him to do these things did he do them.

He was an effective puppet, but he's been dancing to her tune since his very first scene, right until the last, even after she abandons him.

 

Yes he did. Mel showed it to him in the flames. She showed him the Darkness that is coming for them all. He even tells Davos about it. He has a monologue about how it is his duty to stop it all. This goes all the way back to the last episode of season 2.

[Dark Helmet]

When Tyrion is defending King's Landing, do you think many viewers were hoping he would die? That Sansa would be butchered? That Cersei and Tommen would choke on poison as Stannis' troops just through the door of the Throne Room?

 

 

I know I was.

[Il Divo]

When Tyrion is defending King's Landing, do you think many viewers were hoping he would die? That Sansa would be butchered? That Cersei and Tommen would choke on poison as Stannis' troops just through the door of the Throne Room?

The show has portrayed Stannis as the monster, who uses black magic, human sacrifice and forced religion to succeed. You barely see any of the "because it's the best for the realm" side of him on the show.

 

Well, maybe Cersei. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Joffrey showed his incompetence anyway. You didn't need a character for that. But based on the show, was it incompetence, though? Barristan croaks as soon as he is in a fight anyway, and his role as King's Guard was to protect Joffrey. Given how the show portrayed Barristan, Joffrey was spot on when ditching the fellow.

Barristan did have that heroic intro to Dany, yes. Where some warlock tried to kill her only to never be heard from again. Pure cheese.

Barristan isn't the one who reveals Jorah as a traitor. That would be Tywin sending that letter. Anyone who read that letter would have revealed it.

It is not that he died. It is that he died without making any kind of contribution. The show writers felt they needed more shock-value, nothing else. His death doesn't even affect Dany at all.

I'm not praising the writing of the decision; but I just don't think it invalidates his character. Are you saying GRR doesn't kill characters for shock value either?

[Rawgrim]

When Tyrion is defending King's Landing, do you think many viewers were hoping he would die? That Sansa would be butchered? That Cersei and Tommen would choke on poison as Stannis' troops just through the door of the Throne Room?

The show has portrayed Stannis as the monster, who uses black magic, human sacrifice and forced religion to succeed. You barely see any of the "because it's the best for the realm" side of him on the show.

 

Stannis wouldn't have butchered Sansa. Cersei and Tommen, probably. Given how Joffrey was running things nobody saw Stannis as evil in that battle.

 

Dragons are magic too. Dany uses them. ergo she is a monster. She also crucified people as well. Tyrion burns people alive with wildfire. He is a monster too.

[Fast Jimmy]

Yes he did. Mel showed it to him in the flames. She showed him the Darkness that is coming for them all. He even tells Davos about it. He has a monologue about how it is his duty to stop it all. This goes all the way back to the last episode of season 2.

Oh, so someone who can summon shadow assassins through sex couldn't POSSIBLY be producing images in a fire to control someone? Again... he is portrayed as Melisandre's blood hound. And that's how he died.

[Il Divo]

I'm not praising the writing of the decision; but I just don't think it invalidates his character. Are you saying GRR doesn't kill characters for shock value either?

 

 

Personally, I thought his death (while awkward given the half-assed unsullied) gave us an interesting bit of insight into what "Mad Queen Daenerys" would be like. I'm largely tired of Dany, but her burning the noble man was pretty bad ass. I almost wish they kept that going for a bit longer before Tyrion brings her around.  

[Rawgrim]

I know I was.

 

You wanted Joffrey to stay in charge and torment Sansa? Gottcha. At that point Stannis had killed Renly. That's it. Joffrey on the other hand, had killed Ned and every Stark in KL except Sansa, who arguably got the worst of the deal. He also had that charming scene where he beat the whores. Not as bad as someone who killed his traitor brother, I know.

[Dark Helmet]

You wanted Joffrey to stay in charge and torment Sansa? Gottcha. At that point Stannis had killed Renly. That's it. Joffrey on the other hand, had killed Ned and every Stark in KL except Sansa, who arguably got the worst of the deal. He also had that charming scene where he beat the whores. Not as bad as someone who killed his traitor brother, I know.

 

What? No. I wanted Stannis to take King's Landing and kill all those sons of bitches...

[Fast Jimmy]

Stannis wouldn't have butchered Sansa. Cersei and Tommen, probably. Given how Joffrey was running things nobody saw Stannis as evil in that battle.

Dragons are magic too. Dany uses them. ergo she is a monster. She also crucified people as well. Tyrion burns people alive with wildfire. He is a monster too.

Dany IS a monster. I don't see how people can be rooting for her from the books OR the show.

Tyrion was defending an attack, not instigating one. And we have no idea what Stannis' troops would have done when they Attacked. I'm not saying Stannis would have taken out his sword and done the deed, but the viewer was made to fear for Sansa's life. Never once did the show make it appear like the invading army would save anyone, despite most viewers despising the Lannister rule.

[Rawgrim]

Oh, so someone who can summon shadow assassins through sex couldn't POSSIBLY be producing images in a fire to control someone? Again... he is portrayed as Melisandre's blood hound. And that's how he died.

 

How is this any different from using magic or poison? The shadow thingy was just a weapon. Nothing else.

 

No he died as a contradiction brought on by poor writing aimed at shock-value. That is how he died.

[Rawgrim]

What? No. I wanted Stannis to take King's Landing and kill all those sons of bitches...

 

Good chap.

[Il Divo]

How is this any different from using magic or poison? The shadow thingy was just a weapon. Nothing else.

 

No he died as a contradiction brought on by poor writing aimed at shock-value. That is how he died.

 

Pretty sure he died because he and Melisandre misunderstood all the signs regarding the Lord of Light. Even in that regard, she was right about the snow melting from what we could see. It's just a pity that what she regards as the Lord's magic couldn't keep his army loyal. 

[Rawgrim]

Dany IS a monster. I don't see how people can be rooting for her from the books OR the show.

Tyrion was defending an attack, not instigating one. And we have no idea what Stannis' troops would have done when they Attacked. I'm not saying Stannis would have taken out his sword and done the deed, but the viewer was made to fear for Sansa's life. Never once did the show make it appear like the invading army would save anyone, despite most viewers despising the Lannister rule.

 

Stannis wouldn't have harmed Sansa at all. Her father had just told him about Joffrey being a bastard and all that. And that the Lannister most likely got Robert killed. He has noting but good things to say about the Starks all through the show.

[Rawgrim]

Pretty sure he died because he and Melisandre misunderstood all the signs regarding the Lord of Light. Even in that regard, she was right about the snow melting from what we could see. It's just a pity that what she regards as the Lord's magic couldn't keep his army loyal. 

 

Or The Lord of Light got rid of his only real enemy...The guy who has all the dragonglass at Dragonstone, and knows what it can be used for.

 

Still. The way he died was poorly executed, and it ruined a character bigtime.

[Il Divo]

^Not entirely true. During his talk with Jon Snow he mentions how honorable he is, much like Eddard. Jon takes it as a compliment before Stannis corrects him. 

[AlanC9]

According to interviews, he told them that Shireen would end up being burned. I suspected/ feared that while reading ADWD myself, so I'm not surprised about that, but nothing says that it will be Stannis personally or that it will go down as the show portrayed it. GRRM also said "people will die in the show that don't die in the books," which could refer to Barristan Selmy or him and Stannis both.

I think that interpretaion requires a fairly tortured reading of the "Inside the Episode" clip. Not an impossible one since GRRM only told them about "this," but the context of that whole discussion is Stannis' character arc.

But as others have mentioned, this will be subject to objective proof when the next book hits. I expect the "I told you so"s to be flying thick and fast. We'll have to wait and see who will actually be saying them.

[Addai]

At who's insistence? Stannis did not know of the White Walker threat nor did he aspire to be a prophecied hero... not until Melissandre told him to do these things did he do them.

He was an effective puppet, but he's been dancing to her tune since his very first scene, right until the last, even after she abandons him.

So what if she counseled it? She's been a good advisor, and Stannis sees the wisdom in saving the kingdom to earn the throne. In the books Davos also urges him to go north, but the point is that he does it, and realizes the right of it. Furthermore, he did not dance to Mel's tune all the time- e.g. Blackwater. The upshot is that the portrayal of him in this finale is moronic. If that's how you saw the character up to this point, well okay. That just puts the whole series in a worse light because they got him entirely wrong.

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." -Stannis Baratheon

[Rawgrim]

^Not entirely true. During his talk with Jon Snow he mentions how honorable he is, much like Eddard. Jon takes it as a compliment before Stannis corrects him. 

 

He does. And he is right. Jon dies because he is honourable, the same way Ned died, really. He also takes Jon's advice about the wildlings. He spares them.

[Fast Jimmy]

How is this any different from using magic or poison? The shadow thingy was just a weapon. Nothing else.

What? No... I'm saying the visions in the fire could have easily been illusions created by Melisandre. Is giving Stannis illusions about the White Walkers and him defeating them and claiming the Iron Throne ANY different than her saying "lapdog - go to the north and fight a war there, because I demand it."

Stannis seeing visions of R'hllor is not Stannis acting on his own free will. It is either the false promises of a fake god or an illusion created by Melisandre. Take your pick... neither one make Stannis less of a puppet (either of Melsiandre or R'hllor).

No he died as a contradiction brought on by poor writing aimed at shock-value. That is how he died.

I don't see how his character was contradicted at all. He constantly showed that he was willing to do anything to get the throne. And that he believed that only he could rule to save the world. If someone can show me one instance where the show had him doing something outside of Melisandre's orders or suggestion besides the invasion of King's Landing, please remind me, because I can't think of one.

[Il Divo]

Or The Lord of Light got rid of his only real enemy...The guy who has all the dragonglass at Dragonstone, and knows what it can be used for.

 

Still. The way he died was poorly executed, and it ruined a character bigtime.

 

It's possible. But until GRRM gives us the final verdict on what's going on, it's all just speculation. And given the amount of fan support for Jon Snow being alive to unite Westeros, I'm curious why the Lord of Light would want to resurrect him in opposition to his own forces. Part of me really is thinking this is going to go down the "There never was a hero, Westeros is really going to burn b/c no one saw the truth threat".  

[Rawgrim]

I think that interpretaion requires a fairly tortured reading of the "Inside the Episode" clip. Not an impossible one since GRRM only told them about "this," but the context of that whole discussion is Stannis' character arc.

But as others have mentioned, this will be subject to objective proof when the next book hits. I expect the "I told you so"s to be flying thick and fast. We'll have to wait and see who will actually be saying them.

 

So far the show runners had handwaved criticism and just called it "Book-nerd rants". Their words, actually. Kind of an arrogant thing to do, really, since without the book fans there wouldn't even be a show to begin with.

[AlanC9]

Stannis wouldn't have harmed Sansa at all. Her father had just told him about Joffrey being a bastard and all that. And that the Lannister most likely got Robert killed. He has noting but good things to say about the Starks all through the show.

Right. If anything, the Starks were natural allies for Stannis. Hell, if things had worked out for Stannis he was gonna need a new wife, and Sansa would have been perfect. Even better if Stannis completely exterminated the Boltons and left Sansa as the heir to their position too -- assuming titles work that way in Westeros.