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[Il Divo]

So what if she counseled it? She's been a good advisor, and Stannis sees the wisdom in saving the kingdom to earn the throne. In the books Davos also urges him to go north, but the point is that he does it, and realizes the right of it. Furthermore, he did not dance to Mel's tune all the time- e.g. Blackwater. The upshot is that the portrayal of him in this finale is moronic. If that's how you saw the character up to this point, well okay. That just puts the whole series in a worse light because they got him entirely wrong.

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." -Stannis Baratheon

 

True regarding Stannis being somewhat independent. But if anything that demonstrates the opposite: the one time he doesn't listen to Melisandre up until that point, he actually loses. At which point Gendry's blood is used to kill (or appear to kill) Robb and Joffrey. Stannis believing that her methods work isn't entirely surprising, if horrific.  

 

Edit: It is funny that in that scenario, by listening to Melisandre and ignoring Davos, he gets completely boned. 

[Fast Jimmy]

It's possible. But until GRRM gives us the final verdict on what's going on, it's all just speculation. And given the amount of fan support for Jon Snow being alive to unite Westeros, I'm curious why the Lord of Light would want to resurrect him in opposition to his own forces. Part of me really is thinking this is going to go down the "There never was a hero, Westeros is really going to burn b/c no one saw the truth threat".

Well, it's actually more likely to freeze.

But yeah, I could definitely see that being the end game. "Happily ever after" doesn't really seem to match up with the story much.

[Rawgrim]

What? No... I'm saying the visions in the fire could have easily been illusions created by Melisandre. Is giving Stannis illusions about the White Walkers and him defeating them and claiming the Iron Throne ANY different than her saying "lapdog - go to the north and fight a war there, because I demand it."

Stannis seeing visions of R'hllor is not Stannis acting on his own free will. It is either the false promises of a fake god or an illusion created by Melisandre. Take your pick... neither one make Stannis less of a puppet (either of Melsiandre or R'hllor).


I don't see how his character was contradicted at all. He constantly showed that he was willing to do anything to get the throne. And that he believed that only he could rule to save the world. If someone can show me one instance where the show had him doing something outside of Melisandre's orders or suggestion besides the invasion of King's Landing, please remind me, because I can't think of one.

 

Uhm because if nobody stops the White Walkers there won't be anyone left in the kingdom. So yeah. Smart thing to start fighting them.

 

He lost the Blackwater battle when he didn't trust her the last time.

 

Varys also saw The Lord of Light, mind you. And Arya does so in the books. The visions are real, and not brainwashing. And the god is clearly not fake when it can actually do stuff, is it? Shadow Baby anyone? Looked pretty real.

 

"Nine times out of ten the army with the greater number wins. To attack would be suicide". Stannis in season 2. Exremely protective of his daughter too. Yet burns her for no good reason. Those are contradictions. The whole episode was full of things like that.

 

After he goes to the wall he ignores the throne. He is all about the White Walkers at that point. Important bit.

[Fast Jimmy]

If that's how you saw the character up to this point, well okay. That just puts the whole series in a worse light because they got him entirely wrong.

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." -Stannis Baratheon

A BOOK Stannis quote. If we are really discussing the merits of the show, not preconceived notions of what the book states, then this has no merit.

If you don't want to read a critique of the show, just don't read the thread.

[frankf43]

When Tyrion is defending King's Landing, do you think many viewers were hoping he would die? That Sansa would be butchered? That Cersei and Tommen would choke on poison as Stannis' troops just through the door of the Throne Room?

The show has portrayed Stannis as the monster, who uses black magic, human sacrifice and forced religion to succeed. You barely see any of the "because it's the best for the realm" side of him on the show.

Tyrion and Sansa no.

Tommen I have no feelings for one way or the other. 

Cersei I would happily see get her comeuppance.  

For someone who has only watched the shows I was happy to see Stannis have an ignominious end. I will admit though that is mainly because he sacrificed his own daughter for what was portrayed on the show as personal gain.  

[Rawgrim]

Right. If anything, the Starks were natural allies for Stannis. Hell, if things had worked out for Stannis he was gonna need a new wife, and Sansa would have been perfect. Even better if Stannis completely exterminated the Boltons and left Sansa as the heir to their position too -- assuming titles work that way in Westeros.

 

Exactly. The only ones he has any gripe with are the Lannisters and traitors. Which is actually pretty fair. He did toss in a Robb Stark leech though, but only after he had tried to get Robb to join him. The King in the North bit was what screwed up that alliance.

[Addai]

A BOOK Stannis quote. If we are really discussing the merits of the show, not preconceived notions of what the book states, then this has no merit.

If you don't want to read a critique of the show, just don't read the thread.

That's an illustration of the material they had to work with, relating to my statement that if you see that moronic turn in the finale as a reasonable development of his arc, then the whole arc was lame and stupid to begin with. You might be convincing me of that fact, do keep on.

[Il Divo]

Uhm because if nobody stops the White Walkers there won't be anyone left in the kingdom. So yeah. Smart thing to start fighting them.

 

He lost the Blackwater battle when he didn't trust her the last time.

 

Varys also saw The Lord of Light, mind you. And Arya does so in the books. The visions are real, and not brainwashing. And the god is clearly not fake when it can actually do stuff, is it? Shadow Baby anyone? Looked pretty real.

 

"Nine times out of ten the army with the greater number wins. To attack would be suicide". Stannis in season 2. Exremely protective of his daughter too. Yet burns her for no good reason. Those are contradictions. The whole episode was full of things like that.

 

After he goes to the wall he ignores the throne. He is all about the White Walkers at that point. Important bit.

 

Again, I'm trying to understand this. How are you (and others) reconciling "Melisandre has powers that obviously work" with "burns his daughter for no good reason"? The entire reason seems to be that, much like Melisandre herself, he believes it will work because of Renly's death and, to a lesser extent, Robb's and Joffrey's. 

[Ozzy]

Again, just because the blood magic has an effect (or appears to have an effect) doesn't mean that R'hllor is real. 

 

Still, it's clear that neither side are willing to concede on the matter regarding Stannis. I tend to sympathise more with the thoughts of those disappointed by the portrayal, even though I'm not a Stannis fan by any stretch of the imagination, because there was a wealth of material for D&D to draw from regarding the character. I feel they deliberately shortchanged him when it came to characterisation but as always, we'll see what happens next season. Provided he's still alive.

 

In any case, this is an argument that has been going on for pages and pages and is mostly a retread of things already said. I think it's better to just accept each other's differing views, whether displeased by the changes or not, and move on to something else.

 

Like the bad pooooosayyyy. 

[AlanC9]

So far the show runners had handwaved criticism and just called it "Book-nerd rants". Their words, actually. Kind of an arrogant thing to do, really, since without the book fans there wouldn't even be a show to begin with.

Well, that's the thing. They're not saying that this time.

I freely admit that this might just be scenario confirmation on my part, since I figured that Stannis was going to go all-in with Melisandre's brand of crazy years ago. I always thought that his blend of moral inflexibility, ruthlessness, and hubris would turn toxic before the end.

What arc do you think book-Stannis is on, if not that one?

[Rawgrim]

A BOOK Stannis quote. If we are really discussing the merits of the show, not preconceived notions of what the book states, then this has no merit.

If you don't want to read a critique of the show, just don't read the thread.

 

2:40 and onward.

[Il Divo]

Again, just because the blood magic has an effect doesn't mean that R'hllor is real. 

 

And we could call it whatever we want: R'hllor, the Force, Blood Magic. The point is Melisandre's abilities seem to work by anyone's admission. And the one time Stannis ignored Melisandre saw his entire army butchered. 

 

That's Davos' entire point: he knows Melisandre's powers work and says as much in Season 3, but points out that blood magic is not the way to take the Iron Throne. He's not operating from a consequential stand point, he's operating from a moral stand point. 

[AlanC9]

Again, just because the blood magic has an effect (or appears to have an effect) doesn't mean that R'hllor is real.

True, but that still leaves us with the magic working.

[Fast Jimmy]

That's an illustration of the material they had to work with, relating to my statement that if you see that moronic turn in the finale as a reasonable development of his arc, then the whole arc was lame and stupid to begin with. You might be convincing me of that fact, do keep on.

I'm not saying I liked the move... but show Stannis WAS the bad guy, second only to maybe Joffrey and The Night King. If you are just now realizing that with how often it has been portrayed, then you may want to re-evaluate the series.

If this backlash is REALLY more than just "it's not like the books," then we need to evaluate show Stannis as completely separate from book Stannis.

[Rawgrim]

Again, I'm trying to understand this. How are you (and others) reconciling "Melisandre has powers that obviously work" with "burns his daughter for no good reason"? The entire reason seems to be that, much like Melisandre herself, he believes it will work because of Renly's death and, to a lesser extent, Robb's and Joffrey's. 

 

Because Stannis wouldn't burn his only heir. He wouldn't walk into a field like that just to get slaughtered. Its dumb.

 

His motivation for switching from the Throne to the White Walkers, however is completely understandable.Given what he has seen.

[Ozzy]

And we could call it whatever we want: R'hllor, the Force, Blood Magic. The point is Melisandre's abilities seem to work by anyone's admission. And the one time Stannis ignored Melisandre saw his entire army butchered. 

 

That's Davos' entire point: he knows Melisandre's powers work and says as much in Season 3, but points out that blood magic is not the way to take the Iron Throne. He's not operating from a consequential stand point, he's operating from a moral stand point. 

 

We don't know that her powers work, per se. She clearly sees visions and there's some truth within that (I think it would be interesting if these visions came from a particular talking tree but that's tinfoil) but everything else is up to interpretation. The blood magic and ritual sacrifice could have worked or the events were meant to happen anyway. 

 

Melisandre herself goes on in depth regarding glamours and various associated tricks. Everyone assumes them to be magic but she just utilises them for effect. 

 

Of course, stuff like bringing someone back to life (ie Thoros with Beric) and other certain things that I won't go into for fear of spoilers regarding another red priest is shown to have a direct and clear effect but whether that falls under the same banner as the sacrifices is iffy. 

[Rawgrim]

Again, just because the blood magic has an effect (or appears to have an effect) doesn't mean that R'hllor is real. 

 

Still, it's clear that neither side are willing to concede on the matter regarding Stannis. I tend to sympathise more with the thoughts of those disappointed by the portrayal, even though I'm not a Stannis fan by any stretch of the imagination, because there was a wealth of material for D&D to draw from regarding the character. I feel they deliberately shortchanged him when it came to characterisation but as always, we'll see what happens next season. Provided he's still alive.

 

In any case, this is an argument that has been going on for pages and pages and is mostly a retread of things already said. I think it's better to just accept each other's differing views, whether displeased by the changes or not, and move on to something else.

 

Like the bad pooooosayyyy. 

 

The Lord of Light is real. You saw him in season 4. Bran met him in a cave.

[Fast Jimmy]

Uhm because if nobody stops the White Walkers there won't be anyone left in the kingdom. So yeah. Smart thing to start fighting them.

He lost the Blackwater battle when he didn't trust her the last time.

Varys also saw The Lord of Light, mind you. And Arya does so in the books. The visions are real, and not brainwashing. And the god is clearly not fake when it can actually do stuff, is it? Shadow Baby anyone? Looked pretty real.

And could be simply Magic or demons, used to manipulate a man in power to lead a crusade or fulfill some ambition. Regardless, obviously Melisandre's visions and powers are not godlike, otherwise why no just shadow sex assassinate anyone who is left to stand in his way?

"Nine times out of ten the army with the greater number wins. To attack would be suicide". Stannis in season 2.

By the time Stannis knew it would be a pitched battle and knew the greater calvary numbers of his enemy, he had barely enough time to draw his sword. That doesn't make him tactically inept, it just means his information was (way) wrong.

Extremely protective of his daughter too. Yet burns her for no good reason. Those are contradictions. The whole episode was full of things like that.

After he goes to the wall he ignores the throne. He is all about the White Walkers at that point. Important bit.

Yes, he loves his daughter and would tell the entire Seven Kingdoms to die in a fire when he was told she would die of Stoneman's disease. And yet now, with Melisandre pulling his puppet strings, he burns her alive. How does that not take show Stannis down the last stretch of road of where his character has been heading? Listening to the Red Witch's spells and lies, fighting the battles she tells him to, using the tactics she demands.

[Addai]

I'm not saying I liked the move... but show Stannis WAS the bad guy, second only to maybe Joffrey and The Night King. If you are just now realizing that with how often it has been portrayed, then you may want to re-evaluate the series.

If this backlash is REALLY more than just "it's not like the books," then we need to evaluate show Stannis as completely separate from book Stannis.

Well then, I'm left with nothing. Can't divorce my view from the absolute idiocy of his final charge with no apparent attempt to even scout his enemy. He burned his daughter for no good reason, since apparently he doesn't care about the white walker threat at all and is just whipped. What a waste of Stephen Dillane.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Lord of Light is real. You saw him in season 4. Bran met him in a cave.

Did Dany meet him in her tent the night she sacrificed her unborn baby to save Drago?

The world has demons and magic and things that go bump in the night. And none of them seem beyond the ability to lie about what they are to sucker another human into their game.

[frankf43]

I'm not saying I liked the move... but show Stannis WAS the bad guy, second only to maybe Joffrey and The Night King. If you are just now realizing that with how often it has been portrayed, then you may want to re-evaluate the series.

If this backlash is REALLY more than just "it's not like the books," then we need to evaluate show Stannis as completely separate from book Stannis.

I think up until he killed his daughter he was redeemable but once that had happened there was no coming back., The are some actions that are beyond redemption. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Well then, I'm left with nothing. Can't divorce my view from the absolute idiocy of his final charge with no apparent attempt to even scout his enemy. He burned his daughter for no good reason, since apparently he doesn't care about the white walker threat at all and is just whipped. What a waste of Stephen Dillane.

Now THAT post I can agree with.

[Rawgrim]

I'm not saying I liked the move... but show Stannis WAS the bad guy, second only to maybe Joffrey and The Night King. If you are just now realizing that with how often it has been portrayed, then you may want to re-evaluate the series.

If this backlash is REALLY more than just "it's not like the books," then we need to evaluate show Stannis as completely separate from book Stannis.

 

I don't think a badguy would have taken up a huge loan in a bank to defend the north vs a wildling attack and The White Walkers after that. It was a selfless act since he could have used that army and taken KL easily with it.

[Il Divo]

Because Stannis wouldn't burn his only heir. He wouldn't walk into a field like that just to get slaughtered. Its dumb.

 

His motivation for switching from the Throne to the White Walkers, however is completely understandable.Given what he has seen.

 

To the second bit: true, but that does raise a couple questions regarding why he's getting set to slit the throat of Gendry if the Irone Throne is inconsequential to the White Walkers. 

 

Here's basically what Stannis is saying in a nut shell: "I know the WW are more important but I'm going to sacrifice an innocent to hopefully murder 2 Kings who are absolutely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things". 

 

And regarding the first bit: his army is basically done by that point. Half the troops are deserted, his Queen his dead, and Melisandre ditched all while burning his daughter, what was he supposed to do on that field exactly? 

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't think a badguy would have taken up a huge loan in a bank to defend the north vs a wildling attack and The White Walkers after that. It was a selfless act since he could have used that army and taken KL easily with it.

A bad guy that was listening the words of an evil witch would.