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[Rawgrim]

And could be simply Magic or demons, used to manipulate a man in power to lead a crusade or fulfill some ambition. Regardless, obviously Melisandre's visions and powers are not godlike, otherwise why no just shadow sex assassinate anyone who is left to stand in his way?

By the time Stannis knew it would be a pitched battle and knew the greater calvary numbers of his enemy, he had barely enough time to draw his sword. That doesn't make him tactically inept, it just means his information was (way) wrong.

Yes, he loves his daughter and would tell the entire Seven Kingdoms to die in a fire when he was told she would die of Stoneman's disease. And yet now, with Melisandre pulling his puppet strings, he burns her alive. How does that not take show Stannis down the last stretch of road of where his character has been heading? Listening to the Red Witch's spells and lies, fighting the battles she tells him to, using the tactics she demands.

 

Depends on how gods work, then. In a medieval society like that, I am sure it was convincingly real. Mel is broken up about it when she returns to the Wall, as well. So she clearly believed she was doing the right thing.

 

That cavalry showed up in thin air. They didn't have any cavalry in ep 1-9. Tons of scenes were showed from Winterfell and it showed no Cavalry at all. That was summoning magic brought on by poor writing. The same goes for the snow Theon and Sansa jumped into. We saw it wasn't there 5 mins earlier.

 

Stannis makes it perfectly clear in earlier episodes that Shireen is not to be harmed in any way (dinner table scene).

[Addai]

Now THAT post I can agree with.

Okay, then the show really is just that bad. I guess when you stack it up next to Meryn Trant's complex of perversities and the Dorne subplot culminating in Bad *****, it all starts to become clear.

My fault for trying to scan some sense into it.

[Rawgrim]

To the second bit: true, but that does raise a couple questions regarding why he's getting set to slit the throat of Gendry if the Irone Throne is inconsequential to the White Walkers. 

 

Here's basically what Stannis is saying in a nut shell: "I know the WW are more important but I'm going to sacrifice an innocent to hopefully murder 2 Kings who are absolutely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things". 

 

And regarding the first bit: his army is basically done by that point. Half the troops are deserted, his Queen his dead, and Melisandre ditched all while burning his daughter, what was he supposed to do on that field exactly? 

 

That is why he talks to Davos. Because he doesn't want to kill Gendry. This also happens BEFORE the Night's Watch calls for aid. He immediatly shifts focus away from the throne and to the wall.

 

His army left despite having just witnessed divine intervention. If anything a god-fearing medieval society would have flocked to him after that.

[Il Divo]

We don't know that her powers work, per se. She clearly sees visions and there's some truth within that (I think it would be interesting if these visions came from a particular talking tree but that's tinfoil) but everything else is up to interpretation. The blood magic and ritual sacrifice could have worked or the events were meant to happen anyway. 

 

Melisandre herself goes on in depth regarding glamours and various associated tricks. Everyone assumes them to be magic but she just utilises them for effect. 

 

Of course, stuff like bringing someone back to life (ie Thoros with Beric) and other certain things that I won't go into for fear of spoilers regarding another red priest is shown to have a direct and clear effect but whether that falls under the same banner as the sacrifices is iffy. 

 

Retroactively, certainly we can start questioning her powers. But the point is that up until the moment Stannis sacrifices Shireen, Melisandre has confidently (and accurately) outlined to Stannis at least what her abilities can and can't do.

 

She tells him how to murder Renly, which absolutely does work and is the most obvious bit of magic we have. She tells hime she needs to be at the Blackwater if I recall, and we certainly see how that turned. She tells him about the power of King's Blood and Gendry. And utilizing leeches, Gendry's blood leads to the death of 2/3 competing Kings, which Melisandre full on admits is less reliable than an actual sacrifice.

 

We certainly don't know the full extent of her powers (though S5's ending casts some doubt), but as Stannis is concerned, she did seem to be right on the money every time, at least until it really mattered. 

[Rawgrim]

A bad guy that was listening the words of an evil witch would.

 

She isn't evil. She believes she is doing god. Martin even said so on in the GoT commentaries. The "god" she is working for might be evil, of course, but she isn't.

[Il Divo]

That is why he talks to Davos. Because he doesn't want to kill Gendry. This also happens BEFORE the Night's Watch calls for aid. He immediatly shifts focus away from the throne and to the wall.

 

His army left despite having just witnessed divine intervention. If anything a god-fearing medieval society would have flocked to him after that.

 

But he was prepared to go through with it. As I recall, he does prepare to kill Davos for freeing Gendry, until Melisandre stops him b/c of his perceived importance to the Lord of Light. Seems pretty odd for someone who was hoping for any reason not to kill his nephew. 

 

In theory, yes. Though Tyrion has some interesting words regarding what happens to leaders who kill those devoted to them, as Shireen clearly was. Not to mention, most of the deserters were sell swords. 

[Rawgrim]

Did Dany meet him in her tent the night she sacrificed her unborn baby to save Drago?

The world has demons and magic and things that go bump in the night. And none of them seem beyond the ability to lie about what they are to sucker another human into their game.

 

Yup. She did. He was also what kept her from burning to death when he "resurrected" the dragon eggs. No other Targaryen is immune to fire. Nor have they been. And now we have a red priest (the one Tyrion saw) telling people to flock to Dany, because she is "chosen".

[Rawgrim]

But he was prepared to go through with it. As I recall, he does prepare to kill Davos for freeing Gendry, until Melisandre stops him b/c of his perceived importance to the Lord of Light. Seems pretty odd for someone who was hoping for any reason not to kill his nephew. 

 

In theory, yes. Though Tyrion has some interesting words regarding what happens to leaders who kill those devoted to them, as Shireen clearly was. Not to mention, most of the deserters were sell swords. 

 

Yes it was weird. Seemed a contradiction. The show is full of odd things like that whenever they deviate from the books.

[Fast Jimmy]

She isn't evil. She believes she is doing god. Martin even said so on in the GoT commentaries. The "god" she is working for might be evil, of course, but she isn't.

I'll go ahead and Godwin this thread by saying Hitler thought he was going good, too.

Burning people alive for praying to different invisible people than you do is evil, or else evil in humanity just doesn't exist.

[Fast Jimmy]

Yup. She did. He was also what kept her from burning to death when he "resurrected" the dragon eggs. No other Targaryen is immune to fire. Nor have they been. And now we have a red priest (the one Tyrion saw) telling people to flock to Dany, because she is "chosen".

Then R'hllor is a demon. Summoned by demonic rituals, fed by the sacrifice of humans.

Honestly, I'll take my chances with The Others if that's what Melisandre is offering.

[God]

I'll go ahead and Godwin this thread by saying Hitler thought he was going good, too.

Burning people alive for praying to different invisible people than you do is evil, or else in humanity just doesn't exist.

 

Inhumanity doesn't exist.

 

I'm a subjectivist, and a relativist, for how it matters.

 

There is no good or evil beyond what we as humans put value into.

[God]

Then R'hllor is a demon. Summoned by demonic rituals, fed by the sacrifice of humans.

Honestly, I'll take my chances with The Others if that's what Melisandre is offering.

 

Really? At least this demon is willing to be beneficent. The Others clearly aren't. A demon that serves is still better than a foe that only kills.

[Il Divo]

Yes it was weird. Seemed a contradiction. The show is full of odd things like that whenever they deviate from the books.

 

Granted I'm relying on the Ice and Fire wiki here, but if it's to be believed (too lazy to grab a Storm of Swords), it happens almost the exact same way:

 

http://awoiaf.wester...ords-Chapter_63

[Rawgrim]

Then R'hllor is a demon. Summoned by demonic rituals, fed by the sacrifice of humans.

Honestly, I'll take my chances with The Others if that's what Melisandre is offering.

 

Funny you should mention it....

 

I will send you a nice link to your inbox.

[Fast Jimmy]

Inhumanity doesn't exist.

I'm a subjectivist, and a relativist, for how it matters.

There is no good or evil beyond what we as humans put value into.

Fair enough.

But if you were going to put the title evil to someone, would it not be someone who makes (many) others suffer (horribly) for their own personal (and incredibly ideologically barbaric) reasons? Suffering for the purpose of selfishness is as close to evil as the definition gets.

[Rawgrim]

Then R'hllor is a demon. Summoned by demonic rituals, fed by the sacrifice of humans.

Honestly, I'll take my chances with The Others if that's what Melisandre is offering.

 

R'hllor = Brynden Rivers = Blood Raven = The Lord of Light.

[Fast Jimmy]

Really? At least this demon is willing to be beneficent. The Others clearly aren't. A demon that serves is still better than a foe that only kills.

The Others serve, as long as a deal is struck. Craster was able to keep any of his children who weren't boys.

The Lord of Light doesn't seem nearly as kind.

[Rawgrim]

Granted I'm relying on the Ice and Fire wiki here, but if it's to be believed (too lazy to grab a Storm of Swords), it happens almost the exact same way:

 

http://awoiaf.wester...ords-Chapter_63

 

Might be I was wrong about it then. This is a point where a Stannis POV would have been nice.

[Il Divo]

Actually having pulled out my copy of a Storm of Swords, I think this does cast doubt on the "Stannis would never sacrifice Shireen/ an innocent" theory. His line p. 712: "If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark....Sacrifice....is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice". 

[Rawgrim]

The Others serve, as long as a deal is struck. Craster was able to keep any of his children who weren't boys.

The Lord of Light doesn't seem nearly as kind.

 

The Others serve the lord of light. They have much of the same powers he has. Raising the dead.

[Rawgrim]

Actually having pulled out my copy of a Storm of Swords, I think this does cast doubt on the "Stannis would never sacrifice Shireen/ an innocent" theory. His line p. 712: "If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark....Sacrifice....is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice". 

 

He would. But on the show he didn't need to. It was written for shock value. Nothing more.

[Ozzy]

Yup. She did. He was also what kept her from burning to death when he "resurrected" the dragon eggs. No other Targaryen is immune to fire. Nor have they been. And now we have a red priest (the one Tyrion saw) telling people to flock to Dany, because she is "chosen".

 

Should probably avoid using absolute terms when you're referring to a theory (no matter how feasible said theory might be)

 

Retroactively, certainly we can start questioning her powers. But the point is that up until the moment Stannis sacrifices Shireen, Melisandre has confidently (and accurately) outlined to Stannis at least what her abilities can and can't do.

 

She tells him how to murder Renly, which absolutely does work and is the most obvious bit of magic we have. She tells hime she needs to be at the Blackwater if I recall, and we certainly see how that turned. She tells him about the power of King's Blood and Gendry. And utilizing leeches, Gendry's blood leads to the death of 2/3 competing Kings, which Melisandre full on admits is less reliable than an actual sacrifice.

 

We certainly don't know the full extent of her powers (though S5's ending casts some doubt), but as Stannis is concerned, she did seem to be right on the money every time, at least until it really mattered. 

 

That's a fair enough point. Can't believe I completely mindblanked on the shadowy vagina expulsions.

 

Also, the reason she sets him so resolutely against Renly anyway (to the extent that he agreed to have him killed) was that she saw Renly striking down Stannis in battle and this was a way to avert it. Turns out that it happened anyway. Only it was Loras (or Garlan in the books) dressed up in Renly's armour. I suppose this could do a lot to dent Stannis' faith in her. It certainly proves her fallibility. 

 

I'd be curious as to what she could have done on the Blackwater though, had she been there. It's all well and good for her to attribute the loss to her absence but could she have truly done anything while there? 

[Il Divo]

He would. But on the show he didn't need to. It was written for shock value. Nothing more.

 

All evidence we have as of that moment indicates that Melisandre could have been (and was right). The snows do in fact melt (though I was hoping for another shadow baby). 

 

And it's important to keep in mind this rips apart the "There's no way Stannis could do that in the books" theory. Maybe he doesn't do it, but it's no longer improbable, because he's demonstrated the intent already. 

[Il Divo]

Should probably avoid using absolute terms when you're referring to a theory (no matter how feasible said theory might be)

 

 

That's a fair enough point. Can't believe I completely mindblanked on the shadowy vagina expulsions.

 

Also, the reason she sets him so resolutely against Renly anyway (to the extent that he agreed to have him killed) was that she saw Renly striking down Stannis in battle and this was a way to avert it. Turns out that it happened anyway. Only it was Loras (or Garlan in the books) dressed up in Renly's armour. I suppose this could do a lot to dent Stannis' faith in her. It certainly proves her fallibility. 

 

I'd be curious as to what she could have done on the Blackwater though, had she been there. It's all well and good for her to attribute the loss to her absence but could she have truly done anything while there? 

 

Good point regarding Renly.

 

Personally, I think not regarding Melisandre, but given how close she plays her cards, there could have been any other number of motives involved. A lot of this can be regarded as confirmation bias and "correlation does not equal causation", but I think that's beyond the scope of anyone in Westeros' reasoning. 

[God]

Fair enough.

But if you were going to put the title evil to someone, would it not be someone who makes (many) others suffer (horribly) for their own personal (and incredibly ideologically barbaric) reasons? Suffering for the purpose of selfishness is as close to evil as the definition gets.

 

Not really no.

 

I don't judge people on their actions, at least not objectively. 

 

Not all beings are created equal. The Lord of Light is greater than any of the lives sacrificed to it. Hell, a noble is worth more than any peasant.