11084 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

All evidence we have as of that moment indicates that Melisandre could have been (and was right). The snows do in fact melt (though I was hoping for another shadow baby). 

 

And it's important to keep in mind this rips apart the "There's no way Stannis could do that in the books" theory. Maybe he doesn't do it, but it's no longer improbable, because he's demonstrated the intent already. 

 

No it doesn't. He has no means to get it done in the books. He has no time to do it, and he has no need to do it. If someone does it it is Mel and Selyse (which would have made sense on the show too).

[God]

The Others serve, as long as a deal is struck. Craster was able to keep any of his children who weren't boys.

The Lord of Light doesn't seem nearly as kind.

 

That's service? How long do you think the Others would maintain that deal? What is the cost compared to what the Lord of Light offers? You're condemning your children to be turned, and will eventually in turn be slaughtered once the Others have what they want. When they turn the world to night? 

 

The Lord of Light may not be as kind, but he is more noble with he is more beneficent with his intentions. He's not trying to eradicate all life in the world.

[Il Divo]

No it doesn't. He has no means to get it done in the books. He has no time to do it, and he has no need to do it. If someone does it it is Mel and Selyse (which would have made sense on the show too).

 

Alan brought this up already: why are you assuming the context has to be Ramsay Snow? Or that some other development won't happen that requires him to kill Shireen? 

 

That entire conversation with D&D frames the story as Stannis' personal development as per GRRm. It certainly throws out all the arguments about how "out of character" it is for him, given that he essentially just admits the lengths he's willing to go. 

[frankf43]

Depends on how gods work, then. In a medieval society like that, I am sure it was convincingly real. Mel is broken up about it when she returns to the Wall, as well. So she clearly believed she was doing the right thing.

 

That cavalry showed up in thin air. They didn't have any cavalry in ep 1-9. Tons of scenes were showed from Winterfell and it showed no Cavalry at all. That was summoning magic brought on by poor writing. The same goes for the snow Theon and Sansa jumped into. We saw it wasn't there 5 mins earlier.

 

Stannis makes it perfectly clear in earlier episodes that Shireen is not to be harmed in any way (dinner table scene).

 

I took it that the Cavalry was the ones that deserted from Stanins.  

 

I must admit that I thought the whole Stannis plot over the last few weeks has been idiotic. I was talking to a friend at work last week and I said That if I saw my commander burn his daughter who he loved at the stake I would be out of there at my first opportunity. If a man is crazy enough to murder his own daughter then what chance would I have. Remember that his men were all mercs as his army was wiped out at the Black Water.

 

He is supposed to be one of the greatest generals in the world and he doesn't know how to hold on to any army. Yes fear can be a great motivator if you see a reason to why he is killing people. The minute you think there is no rhyme or reason behind his killing then you begin to believe you could be next. 

[Rawgrim]

Alan brought this up already: why are you assuming the context has to be Ramsay Snow? Or that some other development won't happen that requires him to kill Shireen? 

 

That entire conversation with D&D frames the story as Stannis' personal development. It certainly throws out all the arguments about how "out of character" it is for him, given that he essentially just admits the lengths he's willing to go. 

 

If it doesn't involve Ramsay BOLTON, it will involve the White Walkers. And it will be because he desperately needs it. And I am certain it will be a lot better written than the fanfiction D+D came up with.

 

Might be. But I am saying it was crap writing, and could\should have been done a lot better.

[Ozzy]

I'm fairly sure his status as a great general and tactician was completely lost in the adaptation. 

 

A lot of things suffered this season from their weird insistence on getting from Point A to B at breakneck speed. To adapt two books in the way they did in one season was too much and things suffered for it. 

 

The devil is in the details and the details were missing this time around much more than they have in the past. 

[Rawgrim]

I took it that the Cavalry was the ones that deserted from Stanins.  

 

I must admit that I thought the whole Stannis plot over the last few weeks has been idiotic. I was talking to a friend at work last week and I said That if I saw my commander burn his daughter who he loved at the stake I would be out of there at my first opportunity. If a man is crazy enough to murder his own daughter then what chance would I have. Remember that his men were all mercs as his army was wiped out at the Black Water.

 

He is supposed to be one of the greatest generals in the world and he doesn't know how to hold on to any army. Yes fear can be a great motivator if you see a reason to why he is killing people. The minute you think there is no rhyme or reason behind his killing then you begin to believe you could be next. 

 

The cavalry had Bolton banners and they didn't have the uniforms Stannis men had.

 

They weren't all mercs. Just most of them. He still had men of his own. 6000 I think he had left during season 3? They had only seen him burn Mance and Shireen, though. I suspect mercs have seen worse things than that before.

[Il Divo]

If it doesn't involve Ramsay BOLTON, it will involve the White Walkers. And it will be because he desperately needs it. And I am certain it will be a lot better written than the fanfiction D+D came up with.

 

Might be. But I am saying it was crap writing, and could\should have been done a lot better.

 

Yeah, I can't imagine the show having created a scenario where he desperately needed it....like having your entire army stuck in a blizzard with no hope of release. 

 

It sounds more like you're defending GRRM's writing at every turn, regardless of how questionable many of his plot decisions have been, while having also mistakenly remembered several key events to both the book and the show.

[Rawgrim]

Yeah, I can't imagine the show having created a scenario where he desperately needed it....like having your entire army stuck in a blizzard with no hope of release. 

 

It sounds more like you're defending GRRM's writing at every turn, regardless of how questionable many of his plot decisions have been, while having also mistakenly remembered several key events to both the book and the show.

 

Stay true to the source material, you know. Many of his plot desicions have not been resolved yet, so the "dumb stuff" might be there for a very good reason later.

[Ozzy]

Any bets on how big Bran's nose is gonna be next season? 

[Il Divo]

Stay true to the source material, you know. Many of his plot desicions have not been resolved yet, so the "dumb stuff" might be there for a very good reason later.

 

It's definitely possible. But after 10 years with many filler/new/uninteresting characters, faith in how the plot will turn out is pretty thin for me at the moment. 

[Rawgrim]

It's definitely possible. But after 10 years with many filler/new/uninteresting characters, faith in how the plot will turn out is pretty thin for me at the moment. 

 

He is arguably one of the slowest writers I have seen. Book 1 came out in 1991 was it? Robert Jordan and Steven Erikson both write equally complex books, and they dished out one each year.  Martin is probably way more into adding mysteries, foreshadowings and hints, though.

[Ozzy]

Game of Thrones came out in '96, Clash came out in '98 and Storm came out in '00. 

 

Then he hid his massive road block. 

 

Wrote a bunch of the 4th book then completely scrapped it and started again. Was 2005 before he finished it. Soon after release, he was super excited because the 5th book would come out really soon because it was like the second half of Feast!

 

It wasn't released until 2011.

[Addai]

Someone please explain to me what the whole hand slapping game was about, in Dorne. I'm wracking my brain, and even sinking down to D & D fanfiction level I don't get why they devoted any screen time to this.

[Ozzy]

The less said about ShowDorne, the better. Just pretend it was fever dream you had. 

[Rawgrim]

Someone please explain to me what the whole hand slapping game was about, in Dorne. I'm wracking my brain, and even sinking down to D & D fanfiction level I don't get why they devoted any screen time to this.

 

It was to show how quick and deadly the Sand Snakes are. Completely opposite of what we saw when they fought Bron and Jamie, of course. But still. I think that was the intent.

[Rawgrim]

The less said about ShowDorne, the better. Just pretend it was fever dream you had. 

 

Fevre Dream. Also written by GRRM.

[AlanC9]

No it doesn't. He has no means to get it done in the books. He has no time to do it, and he has no need to do it. If someone does it it is Mel and Selyse (which would have made sense on the show too).

But, again, this argument only works for the burning not taking place at that particular moment.

[AlanC9]

If it doesn't involve Ramsay BOLTON, it will involve the White Walkers. And it will be because he desperately needs it. And I am certain it will be a lot better written than the fanfiction D+D came up with.

Might be. But I am saying it was crap writing, and could\should have been done a lot better.

I don't see the actual difference here. Either way Shireen gets torched.

Edit: unless this whole argument boils down to something like " I don't think the showrunners adequately portrayed the severity of Stannis' predicament."

[Il Divo]

Someone please explain to me what the whole hand slapping game was about, in Dorne. I'm wracking my brain, and even sinking down to D & D fanfiction level I don't get why they devoted any screen time to this.

 

Humanize the characters in some strange, pointless way I suspect.

 

Granted, the Sand snakes are kinda meh in the books imo, but this was a good deal worse. I can't say I ever really felt their outrage at Oberyn's death. That scene with Bronn could have been used to actually go into their backstories or motivation instead of well, slapping games. 

[Fast Jimmy]

In reply to the comments about the Bolton calvary, Ramsay's 20GM stole most/all of Stannis' horses. It doesn't explain where the riders came from, but it could help explain the appearance in part.

[Fast Jimmy]

Humanize the characters in some strange, pointless way I suspect.

Granted, the Sand snakes are kinda meh in the books imo, but this was a good deal worse. I can't say I ever really felt their outrage at Oberyn's death. That scene with Bronn could have been used to actually go into their backstories or motivation instead of well, slapping games.

But then "you want that bad p***sy" wouldn't have felt quite as deep!

[Fast Jimmy]

Not really no.

I don't judge people on their actions, at least not objectively.

Not all beings are created equal. The Lord of Light is greater than any of the lives sacrificed to it. Hell, a noble is worth more than any peasant.

Yeah...

...no...

[Il Divo]

But then "you want that bad p***sy" wouldn't have felt quite as deep!

 

I've actually enjoyed S5 quite a bit, but that line....may be one of the worst lines I've ever heard on TV. I'm not even kidding. 

[AlanC9]

I'll go ahead and Godwin this thread by saying Hitler thought he was going good, too.
Burning people alive for praying to different invisible people than you do is evil, or else evil in humanity just doesn't exist.

I'll just drop in the standard noncognitivist response. "Evil" isn't actually a thing that can exist or not exist. More precisely, the sentence "this is evil" is not truth-apt.