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[frankf43]

But then "you want that bad p***sy" wouldn't have felt quite as deep!

But I wouldn't say she was bad, more mediocre. 

[frankf43]

I've actually enjoyed S5 quite a bit, but that line....may be one of the worst lines I've ever heard on TV. I'm not even kidding. 

I'm glad someone did. 

[frankf43]

I'll go ahead and Godwin this thread by saying Hitler thought he was going good, too.

Burning people alive for praying to different invisible people than you do is evil, or else evil in humanity just doesn't exist.

I thought about it but refrained. 

 

I think he is the proof that evil does exist but that's a topic that could totally derail the thread so I wont go into it more. 

[CrutchCricket]

Show Stannis has long been portrayed as a weak puppet of the Red Witch. This played out exactly to that end in the show - listening to Melisandre cost him his family, his army and his life.

No he hasn't. Stannis had one goal and used all the tools at his disposal to achieve it. That includes Melisandre. He was never weak.

 

Well, not until the last episode anyway.

 

I'm not saying I liked the move... but show Stannis WAS the bad guy, second only to maybe Joffrey and The Night King. If you are just now realizing that with how often it has been portrayed, then you may want to re-evaluate the series.

 As opposed to the "good guy"? There are no good guys, with the possible exception of Jon Snow. And whatever good guys there are get killed.

 

If you haven't realized this maybe you should re-evaluate the series.

[God]

Is he seriously saying that Ramsay is better than Stannis?

 

By the way, my last comment on summer child was meant as an indication to look at how the characterization for the characters in the books is in comparison to the show. Well, not compare them, but weigh them and look at where their minds are at the equivalent locations and use that as a light to see how the show characters are. I think you were off in your judgement, but I'll refrain from further comment.

[Fast Jimmy]

No he hasn't. Stannis had one goal and used all the tools at his disposal to achieve it. That includes Melisandre. He was never weak.

Well, not until the last episode anyway.

From the second he stopped using public burnings as means to garner support and instead started actually drinking the R'hloor Kool-aid, he has been weak. That he has one goal only made him that much more easy for Melisandre to manipulate.

As opposed to the "good guy"? There are no good guys, with the possible exception of Jon Snow. And whatever good guys there are get killed.

If you haven't realized this maybe you should re-evaluate the series.

Tell me this... do you think most people were cheering for Stannis during the battle of Blackwater? Do you think that episode won an Emmy because people ALMOST thought Stannis was going to pull it out? Do you think HBO viewers said to themselves "man, Stannis was a pretty good gent burning his own people, but it was too much when he did it to his own daughter?"

There are PLENTY of bad guys in the show, even if there are no good guys. Or do you think Ser Trant is a morally ambiguous character who is molesting and beating little girls in his search for doing what's right?

[frankf43]

Is he seriously saying that Ramsay is better than Stannis?

 

Ramsay never killed his own daughter for personal gain. I not saying that he wouldn't kill his own daughter, just that it hasn't happened yet. 

[Br3admax]

That's not what makes someone better than another person. The fact that Ramsay would, if he actually had a daughter, and has done similar things to other people's daughters doesn't really help your case. 

[Rawgrim]

Ramsay never killed his own daughter for personal gain. I not saying that he wouldn't kill his own daughter, just that it hasn't happened yet. 

 

Stannis didn't do it for personal gain. He was doing it to keep his save the world quest going.

 

Ramsay kills for fun and sport.

[Rawgrim]

From the second he stopped using public burnings as means to garner support and instead started actually drinking the R'hloor Kool-aid, he has been weak. That he has one goal only made him that much more easy for Melisandre to manipulate.

Tell me this... do you think most people were cheering for Stannis during the battle of Blackwater? Do you think that episode won an Emmy because people ALMOST thought Stannis was going to pull it out? Do you think HBO viewers said to themselves "man, Stannis was a pretty good gent burning his own people, but it was too much when he did it to his own daughter?"

There are PLENTY of bad guys in the show, even if there are no good guys. Or do you think Ser Trant is a morally ambiguous character who is molesting and beating little girls in his search for doing what's right?

 

Stannis never burned anyone before the Blackwater battle. All he had done was to have Renly killed.

 

 

Trant got portrayed as pedo for added disgust and shock factor.

[Br3admax]

The last few pages of, "Stannis will definitely kill his daughter, and that'll show you stuck up people who think books make you better," is kind of funny, tbh. 

[Rawgrim]

I don't see the actual difference here. Either way Shireen gets torched.

Edit: unless this whole argument boils down to something like " I don't think the showrunners adequately portrayed the severity of Stannis' predicament."

 

The most likely scenario is that Melisandre burns her to save Jon Snow.

 

Yeah, kind of different than being burned alive by her own father purely for shock value.

[Fast Jimmy]

Stannis never burned anyone before the Blackwater battle. All he had done was to have Renly killed.


Trant got portrayed as pedo for added disgust and shock factor.

Season 2 begins with Stannis watching complicity while Melisandre burns his brother in law. And states that this is not the first of such burnings. Season 2 ends with Blackwater.

And you're comparing book characters with the show. Trant is a pedo bear on the show - the show has bad guys. And Stannis was portrayed as one of them for the vast majority of his run on it.

[Rawgrim]

Season 2 begins with Stannis watching complicity while Melisandre burns his brother in law. And states that this is not the first of such burnings. Season 2 ends with Blackwater.

And you're comparing book characters with the show. Trant is a pedo bear on the show - the show has bad guys. And Stannis was portrayed as one of them for the vast majority of his run on it.

 

No he does not. He burns statues of the Seven Gods. I think you need to watch it again.

 

Yes Trant is a pedo on the show. But he wasn't portrayed as one until ep 10 this season. Added shock\disgust value. Nothing more.

[Rawgrim]

[Rawgrim]

He burns his brother in-law and several others in season 3/4 for refusing to stop worshiping The Seven + several of them are also traitors.

[Fast Jimmy]

The most likely scenario is that Melisandre burns her to save Jon Snow.

Yeah, kind of different than being burned alive by her own father purely for shock value.

Think of it this way... GRR tells D&D Stannis loses the battle for Winterfell in spectacular fashion and Shireen is burned in an attempt to turn the tide of battle.

GRR actually writes that the battle is long and arduous and that, while Stannis originally has the upper hand at the end of Dance of Dragons, his army is weakened to a terrible blizzard and he falls in battle. Melisandre, upon hearing this at the Wall, burns Shireen as a sacrifice to bring Azor Ahai back to life... and brings Jon back to life instead of Stannis. Selyse hangs herself in depression at losing her daughter and her husband.

D&D, knowing they wouldn't be able to film a prolonged battle over multiple episodes, who know the show fans have no idea who Azor Ahai is or the prophecy in general, cuts out the prophecy, has Melisandre order Stannis to burn his daughter, loses his army because of it, fails miserably (and quickly) in the battle and then Melsandre flees to the wall, where she uses other magic to bring Jon Snow back to life. Same end result, different steps because of challenges in filming the show.

[Fast Jimmy]

He burns his brother in-law and several others in season 3/4 for refusing to stop worshiping The Seven + several of them are also traitors.

I apologize - you are correct.

Still, people watching the show are rooting for Tyrion, not Stannis. He's seen as the invader with the evil magic... people are cheering for Joffrey to remain on the throne over Stannis winning. What does that tell you about how the show portrays Stannis?

[God]

Ramsay never killed his own daughter for personal gain. I not saying that he wouldn't kill his own daughter, just that it hasn't happened yet. 

 

Well, he's looking like he's more than willing to off his own half-brother whenever he's born, as well as his father and his step-mother if they get in his way. 

 

He routinely rapes his wife violently, he flays people alive (even when they have done no wrong to him), he tortures and mutilates people and breaks them down, and casually hunts down former lovers with his hounds when he bored with them. All because it simply amuses him. 

 

Is that really better than a man who burns his own daughter for gain that is meant to be used for the benefit of the realm?

[Rawgrim]

Think of it this way... GRR tells D&D Stannis loses the battle for Winterfell in spectacular fashion and Shireen is burned in an attempt to turn the tide of battle.

GRR actually writes that the battle is long and arduous and that, while Stannis originally has the upper hand at the end of Dance of Dragons, his army is weakened to a terrible blizzard and he falls in battle. Melisandre, upon hearing this, burns Shireen as a sacrifice to bring Azor Ahai back to life... and brings Jon back to life instead of Stannis. Selyse hangs herself in depression at losing her daughter and her husband.

D&D, knowing they wouldn't be able to film a prolonged battle over multiple episodes, who know the show fans have no idea who Azor Ahai is or the prophecy in general, cuts out the prophecy, has Melisandre order Stannis to burn his daughter, loses his army because of it, fails miserably (and quickly) in the battle and then Melsandre flees to the wall, where she uses other magic to bring Jon Snow back to life. Same end result, different steps because of challenges in filming the show.

 

Can't happen. Stannis has no way of signalling for anyone to burn Shireen before the battle. And he has no need to do it. And he certainly can't do it during the battle.

 

And your theory just backs up my argument. Stannis won't be the one who makes the call about burning the girl.

 

The show has been spouting about The Chosen One, all the time. Mel talks about the Lord's Chosen in almost every episode.

 

They don't need to prolong the battle. hey could just do it justice by doing it the way Blackwater was done. Instead they go for a screaming-zombie battle that is utterly pointless. And they also added that huge dothraki army scene at the end too. That is where Stannis horses ended up, I guess.

[Rawgrim]

I apologize - you are correct.

Still, people watching the show are rooting for Tyrion, not Stannis. He's seen as the invader with the evil magic... people are cheering for Joffrey to remain on the throne over Stannis winning. What does that tell you about how the show portrays Stannis?

 

They rooted for Tyrion and Stannis actually. But they wanted Cersei and Joffrey dead.

 

And no, they are not cheering for Joffrey. The King's Landing citizens even attack him in the streets a few episodes earlier.

 

The fear they have for Stannis is about war coming to their doorsteps. It has noting to do with Stannis himself. They even talk about it on the show. How nasty a siege is etc.

[frankf43]

Stannis didn't do it for personal gain. He was doing it to keep his save the world quest going.

 

Ramsay kills for fun and sport.

 

I think Ramsey is a psychopath. he was given a chance to rule the North as Sansa's Husband but threw everything away to sate his sadistic appetite.  He's not an evil genius he's a little boy who likes to pull the wings of flies. 

 

Stannis on the other hand I think is evil. If the world was going to be ruled by his model it wasn't worth saving there would have been people burning up and down the length and breath of the country. There was no way that burning his daughter was going to help him save the world either. 

[Fast Jimmy]

They rooted for Tyrion and Stannis actually. But they wanted Cersei and Joffrey dead.

And no, they are not cheering for Joffrey. The King's Landing citizens even attack him in the streets a few episodes earlier.

The fear they have for Stannis is about war coming to their doorsteps. It has noting to do with Stannis himself. They even talk about it on the show. How nasty a siege is etc.

Sorry... talking about real life people, not "the people" of Kings Landing or wherever. If you want to evaluate how Stannis is and has always been portrayed by the show, just look to see how viewers of the show have seen him, especially those viewers without knowledge of the books.

[frankf43]

Well, he's looking like he's more than willing to off his own half-brother whenever he's born, as well as his father and his step-mother if they get in his way. 

 

He routinely rapes his wife violently, he flays people alive (even when they have done no wrong to him), he tortures and mutilates people and breaks them down, and casually hunts down former lovers with his hounds when he bored with them. All because it simply amuses him. 

 

Is that really better than a man who burns his own daughter for gain that is meant to be used for the benefit of the realm?

I think your own daughter thing does make it worse. 

[CrutchCricket]

From the second he stopped using public burnings as means to garner support and instead started actually drinking the R'hloor Kool-aid, he has been weak. That he has one goal only made him that much more easy for Melisandre to manipulate.

He has proof Melisandre's power works. She gets results. Results gain power, power gains throne. Nothing is more important.
 

Tell me this... do you think most people were cheering for Stannis during the battle of Blackwater? Do you think that episode won an Emmy because people ALMOST thought Stannis was going to pull it out? Do you think HBO viewers said to themselves "man, Stannis was a pretty good gent burning his own people, but it was too much when he did it to his own daughter?"

There are PLENTY of bad guys in the show, even if there are no good guys. Or do you think Ser Trant is a morally ambiguous character who is molesting and beating little girls in his search for doing what's right?

Honestly? Yeah. Emmys and unrelated **** notwithstanding, Stannis was the prime candidate to wipe the floor with then-most hated characters Joffrey and Cersei. The only thing people didn't want to see that might've gotten in the way of that is Tyrion sharing that fate. Even though he wasn't a nice guy, I think that made him A-ok in people's books at the time.

 

Trant was already a major ******* we wanted to see dead. Sadism and pedophilia didn't change anything except push it over the top so the writers could "Tarantino" him.