11084 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

I think Ramsey is a psychopath. he was given a chance to rule the North as Sansa's Husband but threw everything away to sate his sadistic appetite.  He's not an evil genius he's a little boy who likes to pull the wings of flies. 

 

Stannis on the other hand I think is evil. If the world was going to be ruled by his model it wasn't worth saving there would have been people burning up and down the length and breath of the country. There was no way that burning his daughter was going to help him save the world either. 

 

His motives were to unite the north to fight vs the White Walkers. He had seen in the flames that if he doesn't do this, all will be lost. That is what the show went for.

 

Evil he is not. Varys calls him a "truly just man" and that is the most terrifying thing he knows. The guy is utterly about justice and black and white. He even says he doesn't want the throne. But it is his because of the laws of the land, and the duty is his. The guy is a rules-lawyer to a fault.

[Iakus]

The most likely scenario is that Melisandre burns her to save Jon Snow.

 

This seems to be the speculation I've seen the most.

 

Assuming Shireen does die in a similar fashion in the book, it will be at the behest of someone other than Stannis (ie Melisandre) and perhaps against his express wishes.

 

In other words, Shireen may burn, it someone else will be responsible for it.  

 

Not that it does her any good 

[Rawgrim]

This seems to be the speculation I've seen the most.

 

Assuming Shireen does die in a similar fashion in the book, it will be at the behest of someone other than Stannis (ie Melisandre) and perhaps against his express wishes.

 

In other words, Shireen may burn, it someone else will be responsible for it.  

 

Not that it does her any good 

 

Might be slightly less of a shock if someone she doesn't trust does it to her.

[Malanek]

GRR actually writes that the battle is long and arduous and that, while Stannis originally has the upper hand at the end of Dance of Dragons, his army is weakened to a terrible blizzard and he falls in battle. Melisandre, upon hearing this at the Wall, burns Shireen as a sacrifice to bring Azor Ahai back to life... and brings Jon back to life instead of Stannis. Selyse hangs herself in depression at losing her daughter and her husband.

 

Are you hypothetically speculating here, or, is it as you say, GRRM actually wrote this somewhere?

[frankf43]

His motives were to unite the north to fight vs the White Walkers. He had seen in the flames that if he doesn't do this, all will be lost. That is what the show went for.

 

Evil he is not. Varys calls him a "truly just man" and that is the most terrifying thing he knows. The guy is utterly about justice and black and white. He even says he doesn't want the throne. But it is his because of the laws of the land, and the duty is his. The guy is a rules-lawyer to a fault.

His motives might be just but his methods are pure evil. Most zealots believe that what they are doing is right and that they are doing it for the betterment of the people and their god. this does not make their acts any less evil. I think this is what Varys is getting at, that Stannis would do anything to uphold his view of duty.No matter how wrong it was.

[Rawgrim]

His motives might be just but his methods are pure evil. Most zealots believe that what they are doing is right and that they are doing it for the betterment of the people and their god. this does not make their acts any less evil. I think this is what Varys is getting at, that Stannis would do anything to uphold his view of duty.No matter how wrong it was.

 

Exactly. And I think that is exactly the kind of man you would want to visit justice upon the Boltons and the Freys, no? And probably the one man that stands the best chance vs The White Walkers.

[CrutchCricket]

Stannis isn't a zealot. He doesn't so much believe, he knows.

 

He's seen the power first hand. He knows what he needs to do. And he stops at nothing to achieve his goals.

 

He's not evil, just ruthless and very determined.

 

You want to see what a zealot looks like, look at his wife.

[SlottsMachine]

I apologize - you are correct.

Still, people watching the show are rooting for Tyrion, not Stannis. He's seen as the invader with the evil magic... people are cheering for Joffrey to remain on the throne over Stannis winning. What does that tell you about how the show portrays Stannis?

 

I've mostly agreed with your posts in this thread but I don't see what relevance the opinions of the masses has on the subject. I'm sure the masses would dislike Paul von Oberstein when in my opinion he is one of the best morally grey characters ever crafted in fiction. 

[CrutchCricket]

Good point^

[Lulupab]

I've mostly agreed with your posts in this thread but I don't see what relevance the opinions of the masses has on the subject. I'm sure the masses would dislike Paul von Oberstein when in my opinion he is one of the best morally grey characters ever crafted in fiction. 

 

I'm not even concerned with people not reading books hating Stannis. But people may fail to see the "greyness".

 

I mean people on this very site think Anders and Loghain are morally black.

 

So... Actually I do see some resemblances between Anders and Stannis (although mildly, since one is a mage and the other military leader, but the justifications and traits remain the same. I also see the resemblance with Loghain. As he himself points his epic flaw, "Too much dedication".)

[Rawgrim]

Stannis is very alike Loghain in some ways, yes.

[Br3admax]

It is not possible to resemble both Anders and Loghain. 

[Lulupab]

It is not possible to resemble both Anders and Loghain. 

 

Why not? Sure the characters are different, but they have similar traits

 

As a military leader, yeah Loghain.

 

But on the Justice angle? Both did something extreme because nothing could persuade them its not the right thing to do. Consider Anders before the explosion and Stannis before the burning. Both guided by something inhuman.

 

You are a Stannis fan, but you also need to be an Anders fan to make the comparison. Anders is the perfect mage activist before the explosion. He cannot be bribed, he has no self interest, he is powerful and more importantly nothing and no one will stop him. Until he does something extreme and rather damages his plight. 

[Malanek]

Stannis isn't a zealot. He doesn't so much believe, he knows.

 

He's seen the power first hand. He knows what he needs to do. And he stops at nothing to achieve his goals.

 

He's not evil, just ruthless and very determined.

 

You want to see what a zealot looks like, look at his wife.

I agree that he isn't a Zealot, but you do realise that a lot of what Melisandre tells him is either trickery to deceive him and at times even Melisandre is wrong?

 

The show actually did this ok in the last episode when she abandons him. Stannis realises it but carries on anyway!!! I did appreciate Stannis's character in the last episode. Very annoyed with him burning Shireen though, very out of character and I'm convinced the books will do that very differently.

 

I actually still think Stannis will take Winterfell in the books, but then be a broken man once he learns Shireen is burned by Melisandre, and he realises then that she has been full of lies. We'll have to wait and see.

[Br3admax]

But on the Justice angle? Both did something extreme because nothing could persuade them its not the right thing to do. Consider Anders before the explosion and Stannis before the burning. Both guided by something inhuman.

 

That's some real general ****, Lulu, and you know it. In that case, everyone can be like Anders. Everyone has a breaking point where they are willing to do, "What must be done."

 

You are a Stannis fan, but you also need to be an Anders fan to make the comparison. Anders is the perfect mage activist before the explosion. He cannot be bribed, he has no self interest, he is powerful and more importantly nothing and no one will stop him. Until he does something extreme and rather damages his plight. 

That's also some really general ****. It's called conviction, and just about anyone with a name anywhere has it. Jon has conviction. Dany has conviction. Tyrion has conviction. Cersei has conviction. Jaime has conviction. Etc. They aren't all like Stannis, Loghain, or Anders. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Are you hypothetically speculating here, or, is it as you say, GRRM actually wrote this somewhere?

Speculating. Just to show how a potential plot line laid out by GRR would be impossible to put into TV format and would require the changes seen.

[Fast Jimmy]

I've mostly agreed with your posts in this thread but I don't see what relevance the opinions of the masses has on the subject. I'm sure the masses would dislike Paul von Oberstein when in my opinion he is one of the best morally grey characters ever crafted in fiction.

The masses reflect how a character is portrayed. I'm not saying that way was good, bad or indifferent, but many book fans have blinders up about how characters, especially Stannis, are portrayed in the show.

Popular opinion doesn't make something right, but it is a reflection of how the character is portrayed - all I'm angling for here. Because otherwise, I believe the premise of most complaints regarding Stannis in ep. 10 boil down to "this isn't how Stannis would act in the books." Which is fine... but the Stannis on the shows is painted with a much different (and less flattering) stroke of the brush.

[Fast Jimmy]

Exactly. And I think that is exactly the kind of man you would want to visit justice upon the Boltons and the Freys, no? And probably the one man that stands the best chance vs The White Walkers.

The man that has the best chance against the White Walkers is one who equips their army with dragon glass when going north of the wall instead of leaving it thousands of miles away on his island kingdom.

[DEUGH Man]

The debate with Stannis really depends on if you feel the ends justify the means, or if the means should represent the end.

 

I personally never liked the idea of him winning the game. The people of Westoros would hurt more for it than benefit from it.

[AlanC9]

The most likely scenario is that Melisandre burns her to save Jon Snow.
 
Yeah, kind of different than being burned alive by her own father purely for shock value.

Well, we'll see. I'll place my final bet here; Book-Stannis will end up every bit as awful as TV-Stannis, although the particular details will be somewhat different. And then he'll die.

(Good thing this thread looks likely to last forever.)

[Br3admax]

Did Stannis burn your father or mother or whatever to death, or something? You sure are going far out of your way to either **** on him, or cover for D&D's **** writing. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Did Stannis burn your father or mother or whatever to death, or something? You sure are going far out of your way to either **** on him, or cover for D&D's **** writing.

Let me pose you a question... if GRR has decreed that Stannis loses the battle for Winterfell and dies in the process, would you rather have it be by the genius of Roose and Ramsey, or Stannis blindly pursuing his goal, his duty, to the point of fault, which is more true to his character, in both the show and the book?

If Stannis is doomed to fail and die, how would you wish it to happen in the books?

[Br3admax]

While that has absolutely nothing to do with the statement I was responding to, Stannis will never lose to the "genius" of Ramsay, as that is how you spell the name, because Ramsay in the books isn't a genius. He's a mutant, psychopathic freak. And as Stannis doesn't blindly follow goals and has brain, losing to Roose while at an extreme tactical disadvantage is fine. Stannis is obviously not going to take the Iron Throne. That does not mean he needs to become retarded to make that happen, and that it's cool to kill him after the edgiest line of events mankind has ever seen. Only stupidity demands that.  

[daveliam]

@AlanC9

 

I agree with you on this.  It's pretty much what I'm expecting to see.  However, I admit that I might be wrong.  The people who thought that showStannis's burning of Shireen was going to lead to his successful siege of Winterfell were certain that they were correct and they were wrong.  There is a solid chance that I'll be the one who is wrong when the next book comes out.  We'll just have to wait to see.  In the meantime, I'm 100% in agreement with you.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Let me pose you a question... if GRR has decreed that Stannis loses the battle for Winterfell and dies in the process, would you rather have it be by the genius of Roose and Ramsey, or Stannis blindly pursuing his goal, his duty, to the point of fault, which is more true to his character, in both the show and the book?

If Stannis is doomed to fail and die, how would you wish it to happen in the books?

For starters it could be done in a manner where Shireen stays at Castle Black rather than being on the march with him just so she can be burned because of some wizardry where Ramsay Bolton and his 20 Good Men teleport into camp and napalm all of the food.

 

His victory or defeat should be handled as it will be in the books where it is shaping up to be a major battle between Stannis' forces (including the northern allies he has gathered) versus the Boltons and everybody who has pledged fealty to them. What we saw was Ramsay's 5,000 Good Cavalrymen charging and destroying an already broken force before dinner.

 

It was downright disappointing and more one-sided than the Boltons could have ever hoped for. Book Stannis appears a bit more competent at keeping his army intact than show Stannis was.