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[Il Divo]

Yeah, the director for the episode (while still not outright admitting that Stannis was dead) said that Stannis knew it was hopeless and was essentially planning on going out in a blaze of glory. He had lost everything, and had nothing to live for.

 

That said, there still has been no 100% confirmation that he is dead. The director and Dan Weiss are saying things like 'he lost, he's ready to die, he is in the suicidal frame of mind, etc.' but they have not said at all that he is actually dead.

 

I can't say I'd mind more Stannis, even if I think it's extremely unlikely. I know Jeyne Poole and Theon make it to his camp as I recall. We could get some strange version of that with Brienne thrown into the mix. 

[CrutchCricket]

I agree that he isn't a Zealot, but you do realise that a lot of what Melisandre tells him is either trickery to deceive him and at times even Melisandre is wrong?

 

The show actually did this ok in the last episode when she abandons him. Stannis realises it but carries on anyway!!! I did appreciate Stannis's character in the last episode. Very annoyed with him burning Shireen though, very out of character and I'm convinced the books will do that very differently.

 

I actually still think Stannis will take Winterfell in the books, but then be a broken man once he learns Shireen is burned by Melisandre, and he realises then that she has been full of lies. We'll have to wait and see.

And therein lies the meat of my problem with the last two episodes. I was fine with Melisandre and her arrangement with Stannis because she more or less kept delivering and he more or less stuck to the plan. But Ep 9 came around and he crossed a line he said he wouldn't cross and it was at her behest, not his.

 

The burning of Shereen was awful. But I understand that awful things happen, especially in worlds where people benefit from them magically as well as practically. I said it before, if this was Star Wars, Stannis would be a full on Sith and Shereen would be the sacrifice that cements that. And I would be OK with that. Except Stannis wasn't strengthened by the sacrifice he was weakened by it. His resolve faltered. Watching him after the sacrifice I kept thinking of Coulson from the first Avengers- "You lack conviction". 

 

It wasn't his idea. He was talked into it. And in the end, despite the signs that it was working, he realized his mistake. And he faced his loss with dignity. So I guess it's not 100% complete ****.

 

The debate with Stannis really depends on if you feel the ends justify the means, or if the means should represent the end.

 

I personally never liked the idea of him winning the game. The people of Westoros would hurt more for it than benefit from it.

I disagree. Stannis would be a hard king but not a cruel one. And ultimately a fair one.

 

"A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good".

 

Plus he wouldn't tolerate schemers like Littlefinger or sycophants like Pycell. That's a plus.

 

I didn't think he'd win. But I'd hoped he'd be around to at least burn those Sparrow assholes.

 

Let me pose you a question... if GRR has decreed that Stannis loses the battle for Winterfell and dies in the process, would you rather have it be by the genius of Roose and Ramsey, or Stannis blindly pursuing his goal, his duty, to the point of fault, which is more true to his character, in both the show and the book?

If Stannis isdoomed to fail and die, how would you wish it to happen in the books?

Defeated in fair battle is a hell of a lot better than the alternative. If Roose can outthink and/or outfight him he deserves the victory. The strong takes out the weak. Though Ramsay could never hope to win against Stannis. At least not without writer-enabled cheat mode.

 

Making it a tragedy by having his flaw be his downside can also work if done right. Clearly the show did not do it right.

 

So, like, what's Margery up to? Is no one concerned that the real queen is still totally imprisoned?

I am very concerned. That made me start to miss Joffrey. Psycho that he was, he would've known better than to allow Margaery to be taken.

 

One does not simply allow fanatics to take Natalie Dormer away.

 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Exactly. The only ones he has any gripe with are the Lannisters and traitors. Which is actually pretty fair. He did toss in a Robb Stark leech though, but only after he had tried to get Robb to join him. The King in the North bit was what screwed up that alliance.

 

Did that happen in the show? I'm not sure I remember that part.

 

Regarding show Stannis, I always got the sense they had made a point of trying to keep him a "neutral" character in contrast to the more clearly good or evil ones. They seemed like had made a conscious effort to avoid making him go too far in either direction as a hero or a villain. The best example of visual shorthand I can think of was in the Season 3 finale when he decides to march north and the camera angle cleverly makes it look like Melisandre and Davos were the devil and angel on his shoulder. As I said, I got the sense that sacirficing Shiren would be out of character, but the show said he was going to sacrifice all his beliefs to be king already so, it was pretty obvious he was going to do it.

 

Funnily enough this actually makes him an even bigger failure than the Starks, because they died for sticking to their honorable principles and Stannis died as a direct result of abandoning them. I haven't read them but it sounds like it's not impossible this happens in the books. Maybe he wins the the Battle of Winterfell and then orders his daughter burned to deal with the Others. Back in Season 3 I actually suspected that was what was going to happen back when he first decided to go north, especially after Melisandre told his wife that sacrifices would be necessary. 

 

Oh and when it comes to the Battle of the Blackwater,although  I hadn't been spoiled to the outcome of that particular battle,  I was pretty sure he wasn't winning it. But I actually would have preferred him to. I had only ever been a slight fan of Tyrion so his life would have been an acceptable trade for me if Stannis had eliminated the Lannisters, and Tommen wasn't a big enough character.

[Lulupab]

That's some real general ****, Lulu, and you know it. In that case, everyone can be like Anders. Everyone has a breaking point where they are willing to do, "What must be done."
 
 
That's also some really general ****. It's called conviction, and just about anyone with a name anywhere has it. Jon has conviction. Dany has conviction. Tyrion has conviction. Cersei has conviction. Jaime has conviction. Etc. They aren't all like Stannis, Loghain, or Anders.

 
No. Its not the same. The only reason Dany is struggling is because she is not willing to do "what must be done" aka killing all the nobles. Stannis would have done it in a heartbeat. The fact that she makes a lot of pauses when it comes to decisions like this is why she is quite different than Stannis.
 
Anders, Stannis and Loghain do not care about any consequence as long as they reach their goal.

[Dovahzeymahlkey]

what if the prophecy is a red herring and theirs really no saving westeros?

[Rawgrim]

Did that happen in the show? I'm not sure I remember that part.

 

Regarding show Stannis, I always got the sense they had made a point of trying to keep him a "neutral" character in contrast to the more clearly good or evil ones. They seemed like had made a conscious effort to avoid making him go too far in either direction as a hero or a villain. The best example of visual shorthand I can think of was in the Season 3 finale when he decides to march north and the camera angle cleverly makes it look like Melisandre and Davos were the devil and angel on his shoulder. As I said, I got the sense that sacirficing Shiren would be out of character, but the show said he was going to sacrifice all his beliefs to be king already so, it was pretty obvious he was going to do it.

 

Funnily enough this actually makes him an even bigger failure than the Starks, because they died for sticking to their honorable principles and Stannis died as a direct result of abandoning them. I haven't read them but it sounds like it's not impossible this happens in the books. Maybe he wins the the Battle of Winterfell and then orders his daughter burned to deal with the Others. Back in Season 3 I actually suspected that was what was going to happen back when he first decided to go north, especially after Melisandre told his wife that sacrifices would be necessary. 

 

Oh and when it comes to the Battle of the Blackwater,although  I hadn't been spoiled to the outcome of that particular battle,  I was pretty sure he wasn't winning it. But I actually would have preferred him to. I had only ever been a slight fan of Tyrion so his life would have been an acceptable trade for me if Stannis had eliminated the Lannisters, and Tommen wasn't a big enough character.

 

Yes it happened on the show. Stannis had sent the northerners a letter with the offer. They decided to make Robb king of the north instead.

[Rawgrim]

 
No. Its not the same. The only reason Dany is struggling is because she is not willing to do "what must be done" aka killing all the nobles. Stannis would have done it in a heartbeat. The fact that she makes a lot of pauses when it comes to decisions like this is why she is quite different than Stannis.
 
Anders, Stannis and Loghain do not care about any consequence as long as they reach their goal.

 

She certainly crucified a ton of them last season. Quite a few of them were good people as well.

[Lulupab]

She certainly crucified a ton of them last season. Quite a few of them were good people as well.

 

That was mistake, she should have either killed all of them or none of them. It just made the nobles angry. The fact that she cared about slaves that much was also a mistake (strategically).

[Rawgrim]

That was mistake, she should have either killed all of them or none of them. It just made the nobles angry. The fact that she cared about slaves that much was also a mistake (strategically).

 

She also didn't know that the nobles are better warriors than Barristan and the Unsullied, I guess.

[Addai]

Stannis was too used to having his retinues son. Didn't adapt when the Northern Homeland attrition kicked in...
 
A shame too. He was only a few techpoints away from getting the next level of military organization.

He certainly understands attrition and lack of loyalty- from the experience with Renly, if nothing else.
 

Am I the only one who thinks Roose's actor would make a fantastic James Bond?

He's got a fantastic nose. It gives me feelings.
 

Yeah, the director for the episode (while still not outright admitting that Stannis was dead) said that Stannis knew it was hopeless and was essentially planning on going out in a blaze of glory. He had lost everything, and had nothing to live for.

Lame, lame, lame. They dig the hole deeper every time I hear them comment on this episode.
 

No. Its not the same. The only reason Dany is struggling is because she is not willing to do "what must be done" aka killing all the nobles. Stannis would have done it in a heartbeat. The fact that she makes a lot of pauses when it comes to decisions like this is why she is quite different than Stannis.
 
Anders, Stannis and Loghain do not care about any consequence as long as they reach their goal.

How'd that work out for the Stalinists and Maoists?

You've misread both Loghain and Stannis.

[Lulupab]

How'd that work out for the Stalinists and Maoists?

You've misread both Loghain and Stannis.

 
Not sure about Stannis, but I haven't misread Loghain since he pretty much confesses to what I just said when you meet him in that cave in Crestwood. He blames his own too much dedication and not caring for consequences. Granted he is changed, but the comparison was not aimed at redeeming Loghain, but the one who endorsed slavery, torture etc... for "good of the realm".

[Sully13]

No but id give you a sandwich. 

[Fast Jimmy]

I am very concerned. That made me start to miss Joffrey. Psycho that he was, he would've known better than to allow Margaery to be taken.

One does not simply allow fanatics to take Natalie Dormer away.

Well, unless I was one of those fanatics. Taking her away for reasons unknown...

[Rawgrim]

That "trial" where Loras got taken was just dumb. The evidence was that a fellow who has been his squire for a year had seen him naked. It is his job to dress the guy in armour, clean wounds and whatever. Odds are he had seen the fellow naked 100 times just by doing his job.

[Fast Jimmy]

That "trial" where Loras got taken was just dumb. The evidence was that a fellow who has been his squire for a year had seen him naked. It is his job to dress the guy in armour, clean wounds and whatever. Odds are he had seen the fellow naked 100 times just by doing his job.

Religious nut jobs aren't usually big into logic or due process.

[Addai]

Not sure about Stannis, but I haven't misread Loghain since he pretty much confesses to what I just said when you meet him in that cave in Crestwood. He blames his own too much dedication and not caring for consequences. Granted he is changed, but the comparison was not aimed at redeeming Loghain, but the one who endorsed slavery, torture etc... for "good of the realm".

He's not great on self assessment. He also says "it can all rightly be called my fault," which isn't right at all. Anyway he had a soft spot for Anora, so was not single minded. Neither was Stannis, who had a soft spot for his family- even Renly- as well as Davos.

[Rawgrim]

Religious nut jobs aren't usually big into logic or due process.

 

Nope but someone else might have pointed it out. Loras mom, for instance. Who is being portrayed as sharp as a razor.

[Il Divo]

That "trial" where Loras got taken was just dumb. The evidence was that a fellow who has been his squire for a year had seen him naked. It is his job to dress the guy in armour, clean wounds and whatever. Odds are he had seen the fellow naked 100 times just by doing his job.

 

Still does "dress the guy in armor" necessarily mean take him from butt naked to full on plate? Wikipedia is also obviously fallible, but I'm not getting too much on squires cleaning wounds as a main duty. 

 

• Carrying the knight’s armour, shield and sword
• Guarding prisoners
• Freeing the knight when taken captive
• Ensuring an honorable burial for a deceased knight
• Replacing lost or damaged equipment
• Replacing an injured or killed horse
• Dressing the knight in armor
• Carrying the knight’s flag
• Protecting the knight
• Taking care of the horses
• Accompanying the knight to tournaments and the battlefield
• Maintaining the knight's equipment

[Fast Jimmy]

<p>

Still does "dress the guy in armor" necessarily mean take him from butt naked to full on plate? Wikipedia is also obviously fallible, but I'm not getting too much on squires cleaning wounds as a main duty.

• Carrying the knight’s armour, shield and sword
• Guarding prisoners
• Freeing the knight when taken captive
• Ensuring an honorable burial for a deceased knight
• Replacing lost or damaged equipment
• Replacing an injured or killed horse
• Dressing the knight in armor
• Carrying the knight’s flag
• Protecting the knight
• Taking care of the horses
• Accompanying the knight to tournaments and the battlefield
• Maintaining the knight's equipment

Has Pod seen Brienne naked?

[daveliam]

Nope but someone else might have pointed it out. Loras mom, for instance. Who is being portrayed as sharp as a razor.

 

Yeah, that scene was dumb for that reason.  It made me question if the Queen of Thorns (his grandmother, actually) is really as sharp as she seems.  That argument was a no-brainer and she just stood there and completely let it slide. 

 

 

Still does "dress the guy in armor" necessarily mean take him from butt naked to full on plate? Wikipedia is also obviously fallible, but I'm not getting too much on squires cleaning wounds as a main duty. 

 

• Carrying the knight’s armour, shield and sword
• Guarding prisoners
• Freeing the knight when taken captive
• Ensuring an honorable burial for a deceased knight
• Replacing lost or damaged equipment
• Replacing an injured or killed horse
• Dressing the knight in armor
• Carrying the knight’s flag
• Protecting the knight
• Taking care of the horses
• Accompanying the knight to tournaments and the battlefield
• Maintaining the knight's equipment

 

I don't think it would be unusual for a squire to see the knight naked.  It might not happen all the time, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possible.  Plus, there's the whole 'comrades-in-arms' military thing where nudity just happens.  It's not sexual.  People bath (shower) in front of each other and it's not a big deal.  I think it's definitely possible for him to know about Loras' birthmark without having had sex with him.  That's more the point.

 

Has Pod seen Brienne naked?

 

That might work differently given that Brienne is a fairly conservative woman and her squire is a young man.  If she were a man?  Then, maybe?  If Pod were a woman?  Maybe as well? 

[Il Divo]

Has Pod seen Brienne naked?

 

Jim, we best not give the showrunners ideas, especially horrifying ones.

 

Jokes aside, I always thought armor had a basic shirt underneath, which the knight really shouldn't be needing help putting on/taking off, though I could be completely off. 

[Il Divo]

 

I don't think it would be unusual for a squire to see the knight naked.  It might not happen all the time, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possible.  Plus, there's the whole 'comrades-in-arms' military thing where nudity just happens.  It's not sexual.  People bath (shower) in front of each other and it's not a big deal.  I think it's definitely possible for him to know about Loras' birthmark without having had sex with him.  That's more the point.

 

That's true, but I guess that's where the whole "trial thing" comes in. I suppose we could have had Cersei bring in a whole bunch of people to back up Oliver's testimony though. Only other alternative I can think of is that everyone pretty much knows of Loras' tastes anyway, so the High Sparrow really just needs the one witness as a technicality. 

[daveliam]

Jim, we best not give the showrunners ideas, especially horrifying ones.

 

Jokes aside, I always thought armor had a basic shirt underneath, which the knight really shouldn't be needing help putting on/taking off, though I could be completely off. 

 

No, you are correct.  To 'dress' a knight doesn't require them to go from fully naked to fully armored.  I think it's more about a 'reasonable doubt' thing here.  It's not that he would have been required to see him naked.  It's just that it very possibly could have happened since it's not out of the realm for the job description.  There are definitely situations in which a squire could have seen their knight naked, so to accept the whole "Well, he knows about Loras' birthmark, so he must have fucked him' argument is kind of lame.  Especially, as Rawgrim pointed out, when there are two characters that, up until that point, have been shown to be exceptionally bright (Olenna and Maergery), it seems kind of lazy to let that one slide.  It felt like there needed to be something more than just that.  Especially when it was also used to not only bring Loras down, but the Queen as well. 

[daveliam]

That's true, but I guess that's where the whole "trial thing" comes in. I suppose we could have had Cersei bring in a whole bunch of people to back up Oliver's testimony though. Only other alternative I can think of is that everyone pretty much knows of Loras' tastes anyway, so the High Sparrow really just needs the one witness as a technicality. 

 

I actually wouldn't have minded that, to be honest.  Although, outside of Renly (who's not really in the position to testify), who else has Loras slept with? 

 

I like how it went down for Maergery in the books, with a slew of men being brought forward to testify against her (falsely).  Reminds me very much of how Anne Boleyn was taken down.  I've always kind of viewed Maergery as the GoT version of her anyway. 

[Il Divo]

I actually wouldn't have minded that, to be honest.  Although, outside of Renly (who's not really in the position to testify), who else has Loras slept with? 

 

I like how it went down for Maergery in the books, with a slew of men being brought forward to testify against her (falsely).  Reminds me very much of how Anne Boleyn was taken down.  I've always kind of viewed Maergery as the GoT version of her anyway. 

 

I think this is one of those moments where the smaller cast does have its detriments, although who is ultimately to say how many people Loras has had a chance to hook up with since Renly's passing? We're shown Oliver explicitly but I suspect that's just due to his role in the story.  

 

Rewatching S5 now: it's also somewhat puzzling they didn't arrest Littlefinger on his return to the capital since his retinue is basically.....2 knights (as far as we see). I liked his conversation with Lancel, but if the High Sparrow is ballsy enough to arrest the Queen Regent, shouldn't the brothel owner be pretty high on their hit list, beyond just a "tread lightly" message?