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[Rawgrim]

Everything is actually Littlefinger's fault. He han Jon Arryn killed.

[Fast Jimmy]

Everything is actually Littlefinger's fault. He han Jon Arryn killed.

True. Although if Cersei had even TRIED to bear Robert a true heir, it would have been irrelevant.

[Jester]

True. Although if Cersei had even TRIED to bear Robert a true heir, it would have been irrelevant.

If Cersei didn't arrange Robert's death, everything would be just fine. 

Ned would still be Hand of the King, and everyone would be happy . 

[Rawgrim]

Robert would have been a good king vs The White Walkers. He would have had the full support of Stannis, The Lannisters, the Tyrells + + +.

[Dark Helmet]

Robert would have been a good king vs The White Walkers. He would have had the full support of Stannis, The Lannisters, the Tyrells + + +.

 

Then one of their females catches his eye....

[Fast Jimmy]

If Cersei didn't arrange Robert's death, everything would be just fine.
Ned would still be Hand of the King, and everyone would be happy .

Well, the issue would have come up eventually. I don't know what lit a fire in Cersei's knickers to kill Robert anyway, he was in terrible health and was heading for an early grave soon enough.

[Fast Jimmy]

Robert would have been a good king vs The White Walkers. He would have had the full support of Stannis, The Lannisters, the Tyrells + + +.

A grand war to save the world... yeah, Robert would have gotten a hard on for that. Stupid Cersei, ruining the world for everyone.

[Cunning Villain]

Well, the issue would have come up eventually. I don't know what lit a fire in Cersei's knickers to kill Robert anyway, he was in terrible health and was heading for an early grave soon enough.

 

Cersei wanted to spare Ned, did she not? Joffrey was the one who ordered him killed.

[Addai]

I completely don't understand why Doran should be angry at Lannisters for Oberyn's death. 
Oberyn volunteered for trial by combat and lost. 
 
It's not Cersei's fault.

It's an extension of the outrage of Elia's rape and murder. Oberyn was trying to extract a confession out of the Mountain that Tywin Lannister gave the order.
 

Well, the issue would have come up eventually. I don't know what lit a fire in Cersei's knickers to kill Robert anyway, he was in terrible health and was heading for an early grave soon enough.

Ned was about to expose that her children were bastards and the product of incest.

Cersei wanted to spare Ned, did she not? Joffrey was the one who ordered him killed.

Only to try to prevent war with the North.

[Fast Jimmy]

Cersei wanted to spare Ned, did she not? Joffrey was the one who ordered him killed.

True. But Joffrey being an insane jerk is for her to blame as well, honestly. Upbringing and incest are both laid at Cersei's feet.

[Fast Jimmy]

Ned was about to expose that her children were bastards and the product of incest.

Why not kill Ned then? It would raise suspicion, surely, and could lead to war... but Robert's death did both of those things as well.

[God]

Then one of their females catches his eye....

 

A ****** wight would have caught Robert's eye

[God]

Why not kill Ned then? It would raise suspicion, surely, and could lead to war... but Robert's death did both of those things as well.

 

Two hands dead in a matter of months, followed by the King? That's pretty... dubious.

[God]

Well, the issue would have come up eventually. I don't know what lit a fire in Cersei's knickers to kill Robert anyway, he was in terrible health and was heading for an early grave soon enough.

 

The issue that Ned knew her secret about her children, and was planning to immediately inform the King upon his return.

[Fast Jimmy]

Two hands dead in a matter of months, followed by the King? That's pretty... dubious.

The king dying the second information leaks that all of his heirs are not his? That's pretty... dubious.

[Fast Jimmy]

The issue that Ned knew her secret about her children, and was planning to immediately inform the King upon his return.

She could have easil denied it. I mean, the "evidence" essentially was that his kids were blonde. I mean... that's not how genetics works. You can't ALWAYS have blue eyed, dark haired kids, no matter who you breed with. It's circumstantial at best.

[God]

The king dying the second information leaks that all of his heirs are not his? That's pretty... dubious.

 

But towards the other side as well. It would make others (like Stannis) look opportunistic and power-mad. Which it did. 

 

Let's not use my own statement as a nuance towards me now.

[God]

She could have easil denied it. I mean, the "evidence" essentially was that his kids were blonde. I mean... that's not how genetics works. You can't ALWAYS have blue eyed, dark haired kids, no matter who you breed with. It's circumstantial at best.

 

Well, Mr. Martin disagrees with you about his own universe.

 

Simply put, you're wrong. That's exactly how the Martinverse works. 

 

The stronger traits always come out on top. In all prior Lannister/Baratheon unions, all offspring produced had dark hair and blue eyes. These are the first "Baratheon" and Lannister children in the records to not have those features. It's the same for other major houses, and while there are exceptions, they are few and far between. Look at the Stark children. Sans Arya (and not counting Jon, since Catelyn wasn't his mother), they all heavily favored the Tully appearance of auburn hair and blue eyes. This is when the traits are more balanced with each other. Targaryens for example, when breeding with others outside the line, tended to lose their Valyrian traits of silvery-blonde hair and violet eyes. Depending on the House (such as Baratheon), this occurred 100% of the time.

 

Baratheon traits are very dominant. You'd think that for Robert having 16 bastards, at least one of them wouldn't have strong Baratheon features (with the mothers having wildly different features themselves). As it is, all of Robert's bastards take very strongly to the Baratheon look. All the male bastards are described as looking exactly like Robert did at whatever age they are. The fact that 3 of his trueborn children don't look like him at all would be ringing alarms for the people who know what they're looking for... like Stannis and Jon Arryn, and (when informed) Eddard Stark.

 

In real life, I wouldn't be making this argument. In Martinverse, word of God states that it is indeed a compelling argument.

[Fast Jimmy]

But towards the other side as well. It would make others (like Stannis) look opportunistic and power-mad. Which it did.

Let's not use my own statement as a nuance towards me now.

Just saying... a LOT of blame can be laid at Cersei's feet. Littlefinger lit the fire to cause all the madness, but Cersei's selfishness laid the perfect kindling to set the whole world ablaze.

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, Mr. Martin disagrees with you about his own universe.

Simply put, you're wrong. That's exactly how the Martinverse works.

The stronger traits always come out on top. In all prior Lannister/Baratheon unions, all offspring produced had dark hair. These are the first "Baratheon" and Lannister children in the records to not have those features. It's the same for other major houses, and while there are exceptions, they are few and far between. Look at the Stark children. Sans Arya (and not counting Jon, since Catelyn wasn't his mother), they all heavily favored the Tully appearance of auburn hair and blue eyes. This is when the traits are more balanced with each other. Targaryens for example, when breeding with others outside the line, tended to lose their Valyrian traits of silvery-blonde hair and violet eyes. Depending on the House (such as Baratheon), this occurred 100% of the time.

In real life, I wouldn't be making this argument. In Martinverse, word of God states that it is indeed a compelling argument.

Fair enough... it just seems flimsy. The word of the Queen over the word of a dusty book.

[Joseph Warrick]

Well, I guess if the goal is to force Doran to go to war, no matter the cost, then it was a pretty logical move. Dead Myrcella and easily-ransomed/killed Prince would force Doran's hand, despite his own reservations. I don't know... It's not a terrible idea if your goal is terrible to begin with?

 

Yeah Ellaria pulled an Anders. She doesn't give a ****.

 

There's going to be a war against Dorne. Doran is going to join Daenerys' cause to save Dorne from Jaime's wrath. Facilitate her arrival to the continent. Meanwhile in the north Bran is seduced by the dark side of the force and somehow works with the white walkers, probably thinking he's helping the wildlings or the watch. During the Daenerys invasion of Westeros, Tyrion kills Cersei but doesn't have the heart to kill Tommen. Jaime kills Tyrion for it. But the white walkers can't be stopped. Jaime and Tommen escape to Essos. Daenerys dies in battle when her last remaining dragon flies away from her. Winter sets in the whole continent.

 

The whole point of the show at large is monsters and magic versus human beings. The relationship of Starks, Targaryens, and Martells with monsters (direwolves, dragons, snakes) dooms them. Monsters can't be allies of human beings. The old gods aren't human gods, they're monstrous gods. I thought the point was dragons versus white walkers but as it turns out both are in the same team. At the end of the series the monsters own Westeros and the humans own Essos as it was before the invasion of the first men.

[God]

Jaime lives. Works for me.

[God]

I really wish they would add Val.

 

In the books, she might even provide a logical reason to burn Shireen: her Greyscale. According to Val, greyscale isn't just cured or stopped. It might lead to her being burned to a plague of greyscale.

 

Plus, that tension between her and Jon. Easily a much better ship than anyone else for him, even Ygritte.

 

Val: "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

[Addai]

She could have easil denied it. I mean, the "evidence" essentially was that his kids were blonde. I mean... that's not how genetics works. You can't ALWAYS have blue eyed, dark haired kids, no matter who you breed with. It's circumstantial at best.

Robert would have believed Ned. If Robert dies, her tormented marriage ends and one of her children becomes ruler. Several birds gone with one stone.

I really wish they would add Val.
 
In the books, she might even provide a logical reason to burn Shireen: her Greyscale. According to Val, greyscale isn't just cured or stopped. It might lead to her being burned to a plague of greyscale.
 
Plus, that tension between her and Jon. Easily a much better ship than anyone else for him, even Ygritte.
 
Val: "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

I assumed after reading ADWD that Shireen would probably end up being burned during frenzy over a greyscale epidemic.

[CrutchCricket]

Everything is actually Littlefinger's fault. He han Jon Arryn killed.

PalpatineLittlefinger'sbehinditall!