11084 réponses à ce sujet

[Ozzy]

Would it have taken them long to film his death? Or to have someone mention it in passing? 

 

I would have taken it over the goofy failed rescue scene where a bunch of Ironborn badasses ran away from a shirtless douche and a few dogs. 

[Giant ambush beetle]

I've always wondered if Stannis sent his right hand and only friend Davos to the wall  in order to spare him seeing him burning his own daughter and more importantly to save him from getting killed during the inevitable defeat by the Boltons.

When Stannis sent him away it already seemed to me like he did not expect a good outcome and did not believe Davos could get support from the nights watch or the wildlings. 

 

But then again, I have not read the books. 

[MisterJB]

Spoiler

In the books, Davos tells Stannis he helped Eric Storm (Gendry in the show) go free and, as punishment, he is sent to negotiate with the Manderlys of White Harbor. He discovers that the Manderlys still secretly support House Stark (they even cook some Freys and serve them as pies at Ramsay's wedding with an impostor posing as Arya) but will only support Stannis if Davos manages to infiltrate Skagos and retrieve Rickon.

[MisterJB]

So, GRRM is basically screwed, right?

 

The show has caught up with the books and has even gone further in some parts because they have a lot less plotlines to deal with.

"Dance with Dragons" was released in 2011. 2011!

Game of Thrones season 1 premiered in 2011. In the time it is taking for GRRM to write one book, there have been five seasons.

 

Even if he manages to release "Winds of Winter" before season 6, there is just no way he can release "A Dream of Spring" before season 7.

 

And I guess we are screwed too. We will have a choice between spoiling the final book or avoiding Internet spoilers for five years, minimum.

[Iakus]

So, GRRM is basically screwed, right?

 

The show has caught up with the books and has even gone further in some parts because they have a lot less plotlines to deal with.

"Dance with Dragons" was released in 2011. 2011!

Game of Thrones season 1 premiered in 2011. In the time it is taking for GRRM to write one book, there has been five seasons.

 

Even if he manages to release "Winds of Winter" before season 6, there is just no way he can release "A Dream of Spring" before season 7.

 

And I guess we are screwed too. We will have a choice between spoiling the final book or avoiding Internet spoilers for five years, minimum.

I think from this point on, the books and the series are going to have completely separate canons. (more so than they already had)

[MisterJB]

The show has caught up with the books and has even gone further in some parts because they have a lot less plotlines to deal with.

Fewer.

[Wulfram]

I suggest hiding in cave until 2025

[Fast Jimmy]

Boy, I sure do wonder what the King of the Iron Islands, Balon Greyjoy, is doing.
Tommen doesn't seem to be in an hurry to bring that part back into the realm.

[Fast Jimmy]

I suggest hiding in cave until 2025

That might be a decent idea.

Just in general, really.

[CrutchCricket]

What other criteria could you possibly try to justify murdering your child for the greater good than the greater good happening? It was never going to work. 

 

Isn't everyone who died in the show doomed by plot contrivance? Honestly, I thought it was a little contrived the way the Red Wedding happened since Robb Stark seemed savy enough to manage the northern lords and the war with the Lannisters up until that point and both he and Catelyn knew that Walder Frey wasn't trust worthy even in that same episode.

That it was your best, if not the only chance of ensuring the greater good happening. Victory would've validated it by itself, but it's not the only thing that can. And technically it was working as intended. It just had other, unintended consequences.

 

I don't think the Red Wedding is a plot contrivance. Robb's blind spot in this regard is the same as his father's- he's honorable, and expects and worse, trusts others to do the same. He didn't trust Frey. But he trusted that the principle of guest protection (there's a word or phrase for it isn't it?) would be upheld. Even by that world's brutal standards, what Walder Frey did is atrocious. The only people that don't condemn it are the ones who profited from it.

 

Tommen doesn't seem to be in an hurry to bring that part back into the realm.

Wouldn't hold my breath. Anyone that just lets Maegary Tyrell get taken by fanatics is not worth a log, let alone a throne.

 

I think the less seen of him the better. Let him be the empty seat we all know he is.

 

I've always wondered if Stannis sent his right hand and only friend Davos to the wall  in order to spare him seeing him burning his own daughter and more importantly to save him from getting killed during the inevitable defeat by the Boltons.

When Stannis sent him away it already seemed to me like he did not expect a good outcome and did not believe Davos could get support from the nights watch or the wildlings. 

 

But then again, I have not read the books. 

I don't think that's an admission of failure. Yes Davos would've tried to stop him and probably gotten himself killed. But Stannis expected to lay siege to Winterfell. That would've given Davos plenty of time to return with horses and supplies. And logically the Boltons should've holed up given "500 men can hold Winterfell against 5000". Unless you happen to have an Asspull Calvary of course.

[Iakus]

 

I don't think the Red Wedding is a plot contrivance. Robb's blind spot in this regard is the same as his father's- he's honorable, and expects and worse, trusts others to do the same. He didn't trust Frey. But he trusted that the principle of guest protection (there's a word or phrase for it isn't it?) would be upheld. Even by that world's brutal standards, what Walder Frey did is atrocious. The only people that don't condemn it are the ones who profited from it.

Yeah, the Red Wedding was an act of barbarity that shocked everyone.  Robb and Catelyn are justified in not seeing it coming, as violating guest right is one of Westeros' biggest taboos.  Even those who did profit from it aren't exactly approving of the act, just of the outcome.  The Frey's will be a long, long time living that down (assuming they aren't wiped out in retribution)

[God]

I suggest hiding in cave until 2025

 

Nah, I just have a feeling Martin will bite it right as he's about to finish Dream.

 

As per his wishes, the series will go unfinished, save for whatever outcome the GoT universe has.

[Addai]

 

And I guess we are screwed too. We will have a choice between spoiling the final book or avoiding Internet spoilers for five years, minimum.

I think this last season is proof positive that the show runners aren't adapting ASoIaF, they're doing a period sex drama lightly inspired by it. What they do in the show will be irrelevant to my enjoyment of the books. If anything, the show has made me appreciate the books more. And, it will sell more books, so I can't see GRRM complaining too much.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That it was your best, if not the only chance of ensuring the greater good happening. Victory would've validated it by itself, but it's not the only thing that can. And technically it was working as intended. It just had other, unintended consequences.

 

Committing unspeakable acts to do something that was never going to work means it was the wrong decision. Those unintended consequences were something that really seem like a direct and obvious result of his actions and something he probably should have seen coming. They directly lead to his downfall, so really it was always his fault if he was always going to make that choice to burn his daughter.

[Halfdan The Menace]

 

I would have taken it over the goofy failed rescue scene where a bunch of Ironborn badasses ran away from a shirtless douche and a few dogs.

I strongly dislike that scene. That rescue scene should have ended with Ramsay having a black eye or something. Let's hope they didn't screw up introducing Euron and Victarion. These two deserve better entrance.

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't think that's an admission of failure. Yes Davos would've tried to stop him and probably gotten himself killed. But Stannis expected to lay siege to Winterfell. That would've given Davos plenty of time to return with horses and supplies. And logically the Boltons should've holed up given "500 men can hold Winterfell against 5000". Unless you happen to have an Asspull Calvary of course.

I'm confused where this Asspull Calvary comment is coming from.

Did everyone not assume that Ramsay's abduction of half their horses plus the desertion of their MERCENARY calvary (meaning that if they were abandoning one army, they would happily join another that would pay them) would not result in every horse that Stannis had in his army winding up in the Bolton's?

I don't really see how that's an asspull (aside from Ramsay and his 2GM) - the calvary didn't just materialize out of nowhere. Pretty much every action that weakened Stannis made perfect sense to also further strengthen the Boltons.

[Addai]

I'm confused where this Asspull Calvary comment is coming from.

Did everyone not assume that Ramsay's abduction of half their horses plus the desertion of their MERCENARY calvary (meaning that if they were abandoning one army, they would happily join another that would pay them) would not result in every horse that Stannis had in his army winding up in the Bolton's?

I don't really see how that's an asspull (aside from Ramsay and his 2GM) - the calvary didn't just materialize out of nowhere. Pretty much every action that weakened Stannis made perfect sense to also further strengthen the Boltons.

Well for one thing, you don't move a cavalry of that size in heavy MELTING snow and without Stannis or Melisandre hearing a peep. That's just ridiculous.

 

Second of all, where did he think they went? Did he not bother to follow the tracks? Do a nip of scouting before he sent all his remaining men to their deaths?

 

This scene gets stupider every time I think about it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Speaking of contrived and Ramsey, he's always struck me as a guy who's very existence didn't really make any sense at all. Roose Bolton is a guy who's always been needed to subtle in his various evil antics. Having a guy like Ramsey around who's basically a raving unsubtle psychopath seems like a ridiculous liability. I honestly can't imagine someone as ruthless as Roose Bolton wouldn't have had him eliminated. Especially since my understanding is that in the books, Ramsey actually killed his only trueborn son. That seems like the exact type of behavior that he couldn't allow to be tolerated.

 

But yeah in the show, the scene between Yara and Ramsey made no sense either. Even if I assume Theon's behavior is explained by Stockholm's syndrome or something, it made no sense that Yara wouldn't have either tried to put him out his misery or avenge him by using a throwing axe or something on the completely unarmed unprotected target.

[Fast Jimmy]

Well for one thing, you don't move a cavalry of that size in heavy MELTING snow and without Stannis or Melisandre hearing a peep. That's just ridiculous.

Second of all, where did he think they went? Did he not bother to follow the tracks? Do a nip of scouting before he sent all his remaining men to their deaths?

This scene gets stupider every time I think about it.

That just makes Stannis more incompetent, not the calvary any less feasible.

Maybe instead of asspull calvary, it should be asshat Stannis?

[Fast Jimmy]

Nah, I just have a feeling Martin will bite it right as he's about to finish Dream.

As per his wishes, the series will go unfinished, save for whatever outcome the GoT universe has.

Yeah right. People will burn his house to the ground to find a way in to recover the unfinished transcript and post it online... or destroy everything trying.

[Iakus]

 

But yeah in the show, the scene between Yara and Ramsey made no sense either. Even if I assume Theon's behavior is explained by Stockholm's syndrome or something, it made no sense that Yara wouldn't have either tried to put him out his misery or avenge him by using a throwing axe or something on the completely unarmed unprotected target.

Theon was never that stable to begin with.  But spending an extended period of time playing Fifty Shades of Greyjoy with Ramsay has likely broken him completely.

[Sifr]

Boy, I sure do wonder what the King of the Iron Islands, Balon Greyjoy, is doing.

Tommen doesn't seem to be in an hurry to bring that part back into the realm.

 

Neither was Joffrey before him, Stannis only acknowledged them once while throwing that leech in the fire, while even Robb's reaction to Theon's betrayal and the seizure of Winterfell was issue a warrant for him, then immediately go back to waging war on the Lannisters. So far, the Boltons are the only ones actually dealing with the Ironborn, having retaken Winterfell and Moat Cailin from them.

 

It's kinda comical that since Balon last appeared in the show, Stannis has sailed to Braavos, returned home, marched his army to the Wall, fought the Wildlings and then marched back down to Winterfell...

[Dovahzeymahlkey]

im still rooting for Arya to marry dany and take over the iron throne.

[justafan]

My biggest problem with the shows portrayal of Stannis and Ramsey Sue is that they seem to have transferred all the internal strife that should logically be happening to Roose and Ramsay in the heart of the North which they claimed through a coup and violation of guest right against the universally loved Robb and shifted it all to Stannis, whom the even more beloved Eddard supported to his dying breath.

 

Seriously,

Spoiler

in the books, it's Stannis who is GAINING the defectors, not creating them

In the show, we have one old lady saying "the north remembers" and she promptly gets flayed when she tries to call for help.  And the person she is calling isn't even a Northerner! It's a bloody stormlander!

[CrutchCricket]

Committing unspeakable acts to do something that was never going to work means it was the wrong decision. Those unintended consequences were something that really seem like a direct and obvious result of his actions and something he probably should have seen coming. They directly lead to his downfall, so really it was always his fault if he was always going to make that choice to burn his daughter.

Except it was working. The snows were melting.

 

As for the defections, does half his army just turning tail, really not seem suspect to you? Sure I could see a few getting queasy and running, but half? Give me a break. How many men did Stannis have prior to burning Shireen? 5000? Let's say that for the sake of argument. Are you telling me 2,500 people individually decided to turn tail (again without anyone noticing, I don't recall Stannis leading the Army of the Blind) and run? Or if someone rose up and took charge and told them to run, who was it? Don't you think that would've been important to show?

 

This, if nothing else should prove how **** the writing of this arc really is. If they really wanted to make the point you want to make, that burning Shireen would clear the weather but lose his army, this is probably the worst way to do it. Instead of having two implausible events (20 Good Men™ and half his army going "lol **** it") go entirely unnoticed on separate occasions, merge them into one. Have the calvary and merc company explicitly stated to be leaving as a result of that sacrifice, while also taking most of the supplies. Introduce a merc captain like Daario to clash with Stannis over previous decisions like holing up in the harsh weather. This provides a central figure to represent the growing dissent. It also serves to force Stannis' hand even more and emphasizes the tragedy of the decision having the opposite effect that he wanted. Not to mention you get bonus parallels of Roose Bolton advising Robb Stark, growing frustrated and eventually betraying him. That way, not only are you emphasizing that it was the wrong choice, but you are providing plausible consequences for it in a way that makes it really tragic. It would also allow you to have what Fast Jimmy wants to pass off- people not just leaving but switching sides.

 

What we do have doesn't make any of those points in the least. It's just contrivance after contrivance to completely **** on a character the writers don't like and get him out of the way.

 

Speaking of contrived and Ramsey, he's always struck me as a guy who's very existence didn't really make any sense at all. Roose Bolton is a guy who's always been needed to subtle in his various evil antics. Having a guy like Ramsey around who's basically a raving unsubtle psychopath seems like a ridiculous liability. I honestly can't imagine someone as ruthless as Roose Bolton wouldn't have had him eliminated. Especially since my understanding is that in the books, Ramsey actually killed his only trueborn son. That seems like the exact type of behavior that he couldn't allow to be tolerated.

 

But yeah in the show, the scene between Yara and Ramsey made no sense either. Even if I assume Theon's behavior is explained by Stockholm's syndrome or something, it made no sense that Yara wouldn't have either tried to put him out his misery or avenge him by using a throwing axe or something on the completely unarmed unprotected target.

I think Roose was always in control so it wasn't a problem. And while Ramsay was a bastard Roose could've had plausible deniability if he did get out of hand (or when it was convenient for him to do so). When Ramsay gets legitimized, Roose is Warden of the North. So it doesn't really matter. Ramsay can go crazy across the North and no one down south is going to care, and no one in the North would complain to them anyway.

 

And Reek is not a product of Stockholm's. He's utterly broken. Just because the physical pain's stopped doesn't mean the torture's over. For him the torture will likely never be over.

 

That just makes Stannis more incompetent, not the calvary any less feasible.

Maybe instead of asspull calvary, it should be asshat Stannis?

Yes, yes, ridiculous plot contrivances make a character incompetent.

 

Gotta say, it's not Stannis that comes out an asshat from this exchange.