11084 réponses à ce sujet

[Snook]

I'm just wondering how a Tower of Joy flashback would even get worked in honestly. Who's remembering it? Only one person who was there is alive right now and he's hardly central enough for a flashback sequence.

Maybe Bran is our 'eyes' for that scene. His actor alluded to some 'interesting visions' in S6.

[Il Divo]

I'm just wondering how a Tower of Joy flashback would even get worked in honestly. Who's remembering it? Only one person who was there is alive right now and he's hardly central enough for a flashback sequence.

Maybe Bran is our 'eyes' for that scene. His actor alluded to some 'interesting visions' in S6.

 

In theory, it doesn't have to be somebody remembering the flashback. I'm thinking for example how Breaking Bad handled the pre-credits scene in Ozymandias. Or the flashback to how Walt and Skyler first obtained their house. 

[TobiTobsen]

Hopefully the Tower of Joy fight will be choreographed by the same brilliant mind that brought us the Jaime & Bronn vs. Sand Snakes fight. It shall be glorious!

 

Spoiler

[Steelcan]

the show thus far has been pretty hesitant to rely on flashbacks though

[Il Divo]

Are you talking "suspect" from and in or out of universe perspective? I don't really care about the show one way or another so I'm not here to defend it, but I think the idea was that an already demoralized army sees a child being burned alive for seemingly no reason (most of the soldiers presumably don't believe in the Lord of Light) and figure there's no point in being here and leave. Stannis was never a guy with a lot of charisma. He never really inspired a great deal loyalty among his legions because he doesn't seem to empathize with their perspective beyond expecting them to do their duty like he does. That was demonstrated back in the Battle of Blackwater when that soldier protested his attack plan on account of the casualties and he dismissed that concern as long as they could take the city. The fact that he failed to account for the men and expected them to do their duty like he felt he was is presumably supposed to be his fatal blind spot, like honor is the Stark's.

 

 

 

I think this was largely the point behind Tyrion's speech to Daenerys about executing those devoted to you, hence her sending Jorah away. Shireen, in every sense, adored her father and was rewarded with being burned at the stake. Sell swords don't have much loyalty to begin with, but bitter cold + watching something of that sort probably wouldn't give anyone much confidence in their leader. 

[Ozzy]

Bran's predicament gives them the perfect vehicle with which to start employing them more liberally. 

 

I saw Cersei's flashback at the start of this season as indication that they were becoming more amenable to including them in the show. I'm still bitter that we missed out on the Aerys/Brandon/Rickard flashback that was cut from the first season, lol. 

[Steelcan]

I think this was largely the point behind Tyrion's speech to Daenerys about executing those devoted to you, hence her sending Jorah away. Shireen, in every sense, adored her father and was rewarded with being burned at the stake. Sell swords don't have much loyalty to begin with, but bitter cold + watching something of that sort probably wouldn't give anyone much confidence in their leader. 

throw in a healthy dose of the writers hating him for no good reason and Ramsay's Sueness

[Il Divo]

 

 

He also only brought Ramsay to court because Ramsay was his only living heir at the time. With a new heir on the way it is likely that Roose will have plans of disposing of Ramsay in order to start over with a new heir.

 

I could be wrong here, but doesn't Roose at one point mention that Ramsay will likely kill any heirs Roose has, which doesn't bother him (Roose) one bit? 

[Il Divo]

throw in a healthy dose of the writers hating him for no good reason and Ramsay's Sueness

 

Or GRRM-ness plot-lines. Personally, I'm not convinced of the writers 100% hating Stannis so much as some fans really expected him to take the throne, which I never thought of as a possibility, regardless of my own feelings on the character. 

[Ozzy]

I could be wrong here, but doesn't Roose at one point mention that Ramsay will likely kill any heirs Roose has, which doesn't bother him (Roose) one bit? 

 

In the books. I don't think we really got any significant one on one Roose/Theon interactions in the show but my memory could just be failing. 

[Dermain]

I could be wrong here, but doesn't Roose at one point mention that Ramsay will likely kill any heirs Roose has, which doesn't bother him (Roose) one bit? 

 

He states that it would probably be best if Ramsay does because he feels that "child lord's" are the bane of any house (they certainly are in CK2). 

 

Show Roose probably has different motivations than book Roose though.

[Addai]

Or GRRM-ness plot-lines. Personally, I'm not convinced of the writers 100% hating Stannis so much as some fans really expected him to take the throne, which I never thought of as a possibility, regardless of my own feelings on the character. 

No, just an arc that made sense.

[Br3admax]

He states that it would probably be best if Ramsay does because he feels that "child lord's" are the bane of any house (they certainly are in CK2). 

My child conquered a kingdom with 10,000 good men, expanding my empire when I finally did him a favor and died. Your theory is invalid. 

[Fast Jimmy]

My child conquered a kingdom with 10,000 good men, expanding my empire when I finally did him a favor and died. Your theory is invalid.

Psssh. Child kings made by the command console don't count.

<shots fired>

[Br3admax]

The **** you just say about my son, Jimmy?

 

 

But even if I did use the console for that, it would still be legit. The Boltons use it all the time. 

[Sifr]

Or GRRM-ness plot-lines. Personally, I'm not convinced of the writers 100% hating Stannis so much as some fans really expected him to take the throne, which I never thought of as a possibility, regardless of my own feelings on the character. 

 

Part of me suspects that the sentiment that Stannis was "nerfed" by the writers who "hate him" is only because part of his fandom have built him up so much in their minds, it was impossible for him to lose.

 

I'm not saying that Stannis isn't a capable military commander, but how does barely surviving the siege of Storm's End, losing the Blackwater and using magic to defeat people really prove that he's a badass. His only military victory in open combat thus far in the series has been against a bunch of ill-trained, ill-equiped Wildlings who are half-knackered from fighting all night against the Night's Watch?

 

Personally, I have to wonder at the double-standard at play when it comes to him.

 

When Stannis proves he can win a battle or uses unconventional tactics to win he's Stannis the Mannis, the Memetic Badass. But when Ramsay proves he's also a capable of winning a battle and using uncoventional tactics such as guerrilla warfare to win, he's labelled an extreme Mary Sue?

 

I do enjoy Stannis' character, but it does confuse me where so much of this hero worship came from?

[Steelcan]

Part of me suspects that the sentiment that Stannis was "nerfed" by the writers who "hate him" is only because part of his fandom have built him up so much in their minds, it was impossible for him to lose.

 

I'm not saying that Stannis isn't a capable military commander, but how does barely surviving the siege of Dragonstone, losing the Blackwater and using magic to defeat people really prove that he's a badass. His only military victory in open combat thus far in the series has been against a bunch of ill-trained, ill-equiped Wildlings who are half-knackered from fighting all night against the Night's Watch?

 

Personally, I have to wonder at the double-standard at play when it comes to him.

 

When Stannis proves he can win a battle or uses unconventional tactics to win he's Stannis the Mannis, the Memetic Badass. But when Ramsay proves he's also a capable of winning a battle and using uncoventional tactics such as guerrilla warfare to win, he's labelled an extreme Mary Sue?

 

I do enjoy Stannis' character, but it does confuse me where so much of this hero worship came from?

well you're just flat out wrong on his military victories.  He also took Dragonstone from the Targaryens and smashed the Iron Fleet during Balon's uprising, as well as seizing castles they occupied in the North after saving the Night's Watch.

[Sifr]

well you're just flat out wrong on his military victories.  He also took Dragonstone from the Targaryens and smashed the Iron Fleet during Balon's uprising, as well as seizing castles they occupied in the North after saving the Night's Watch.

 

Oops, I mixed up Storm's End and Dragonstone.

 

But regardless doesn't that show that Stannis' real main strength lies in siege and naval warfare, not in the field? That's why his plan derailed at Winterfell because he clearly was preparing for a siege in his mind, but when that fell through, he was forced to instead meet them out in the open without having properly come up with a battleplan, let alone in an area which is not his forte?

[Br3admax]

He failed because half his army left and the other half was starving to death because 20 good men. And no, the fact that he wins sieges does not mean that he will lose in the field. Especially when he's neck deep in a war, one with battles he's had in the field mind you, with advisors on hand. 

[Malanek]

One reason the show may have killed of Stannis the way it did is because he is about to die shortly in the books in a way the show simply can't replicate because of lacking prior details. Is anyone familiar with the Grand Northern Conspiracy? If you don't feel like reading, in short it is a speculative theory about what happened to Robbs will which was witnessed and signed just before the Red Wedding. It names Jon Snow as Robb's heir and names him a Stark.

 

The theory then says that the Lords who witnessed the will are then moved to enact it and make Jon a Stark, by royal decree, and King in the North. Now of course since Stannis is not going to accept this, they have to not only get rid of the Boltons, but also Stannis himself. What better way to do that than by getting them to fight against one another? After that, if he survives, it is entirely possible the North will betray him. I would highly recommend reading it, although it does come across a little as wishful thinking. 

 

The show is lacking about 85% of the detail of the books. It is lacking far too many characters, I don't even think it had Robbs will in it? So they need to resolve the battle in another way. Brienne, who's own storyline has been completely changed since returning to Kings Landing, has her personal vendetta with Stannis that they can hook into, but they needed to make him vulnerable outside of Winterfell so that was how they did it. I don't believe his death has any chance of playing out the same way in the books, but he could still very easily die.

[DEUGH Man]

Iirc, doesn't Stannis unknowingly have the "support" of houses who are actually on the Bolton's side? That could explain him losing half his army and getting shredded

[Dermain]

Iirc, doesn't Stannis unknowingly have the "support" of houses who are actually on the Bolton's side? That could explain him losing half his army and getting shredded

 

I think he knows that they're not on his side.

[DEUGH Man]

I think he knows that they're not on his side.

Perhaps, its been a while since I read the last book, and I kind of rushed through it.

[Addai]

Oops, I mixed up Storm's End and Dragonstone.
 
But regardless doesn't that show that Stannis' real main strength lies in siege and naval warfare, not in the field? That's why his plan derailed at Winterfell because he clearly was preparing for a siege in his mind, but when that fell through, he was forced to instead meet them out in the open without having properly come up with a battleplan, let alone in an area which is not his forte?

Hodor could have made a better battle plan than they show Stannis doing in the finale. There wasn't a plan. It was "we need to kill off Stannis and his whole army, how we gonna do that... psychological crisis, cut to a CGI shot, done." And no explanation for how half his army and all his horses could have slunk off in the night with him none the wiser.

Extremely shoddy.

NONE of us are saying that Stannis was supposed to win. But if he was going to lose and die, do it in a way that befits the character and the entire build-up to the battle.

Also, to the topic of Stannis losing battles in the field- he crushed Mance.

[Malanek]

Iirc, doesn't Stannis unknowingly have the "support" of houses who are actually on the Bolton's side? That could explain him losing half his army and getting shredded

The reader "thinks" that Stannis unknowingly has the support of the Manderlys, which is the richest of the northern houses. At the end of book five, Roose had sent the Manderlys and the Freys out to attack Stannis outside Winterfell, just to release tension within.

 

Wyman Manderly sent Davos away to find Rickon. What we do know is that he hates the Freys and the Boltons, but it doesn't necessarily mean he supports Stannis, there may be more going on that the reader is not aware of.

 

Madnerly's north remembers speech...

 

My son Wendel came to the the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home