11084 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not quite get the strategy behind Greyjoy's rationale other than some misplaced sense of arrogance. It makes much more sense to me if you want to secede, to help fellow secessionists. Why in Westeros' name does he expect the Lannisters or the Baratheons to ever accept him as independent king should any of them win and why does he think that they can't kick his ass again like they already did? It's in his interest to prolong the fighting between the Starks and the rest. Meh stupid.

The Greyjoys are the dark side of the North.  All guts and bravado and no sense whatsoever.  I like Victarion, and in the books I like Asha, but not so much in the show.  I agree that the stupidity of Balon's move is more obvious to me than it was in the books.  For a really awesome northerner, you're going to have to wait for Manderley, who should've been introduced by now but all that Winterfell stuff got cut.  Shame.

Tyrion was good here, and Varys is awesome for figuring it out quickly. I think Littlefinger will too if he didn't already.

Littlefinger understood after the fact, that's why he was so angry.  He's used to being the one playing the games.

Shae's acting is annoying me to be honest. And I think it's obvious she will hold Tyrion back in one way or the other. And for some reason I don't think she is what she seems she is. But the show made me paranoid, so what do I know.

I really have no idea what they are doing with her.  In the books she seemed sweet and pliant and loving, not mysterious at all.  Early on in the TV series they decided she was international woman of mystery so they are making her out to be a noblewoman who's not very bright and not a very good prostitute or girlfriend.  Which makes it less understandable why Tyrion is taken with her.  I don't like the characterization at all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Littlefinger understood after the fact, that's why he was so angry.  He's used to being the one playing the games.

Indeed. But I have a feeling Baelish will shine later on. I hope.

Not sure who I like more now, Baelish or Varys. I am beginning to lean more towards Varys because I do think he genuinely cares about the greater good, however he defines it. Baelish is clearly out for himself almost exclusively. I see him as the kind of guy who would create civil wars just to advance himself. 

I really have no idea what they are doing with her.  In the books she seemed sweet and pliant and loving, not mysterious at all.  Early on in the TV series they decided she was international woman of mystery so they are making her out to be a noblewoman who's not very bright and not a very good prostitute or girlfriend.  Which makes it less understandable why Tyrion is taken with her.  I don't like the characterization at all.

I don't know, I think it's way too obvious that she is manipulating him that she can't possibly be manipulating him.

But the acting in and of itself is bad imo, she grates on my nerves.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 avril 2012 - 06:44 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai: If they **** up Tyrion from the books I will be very pissed off, and by **** up I mean Blackwater Episode and whatp happens to him. Then again GRRM is writing that so hopefully he will do it well

"Those are brave men....let's go kill them" Tyrion Lannister 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 avril 2012 - 07:03 .

[Ebannaw1]

Yoren was a bad ass. May he rest in peace.

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Littlefinger understood after the fact, that's why he was so angry.  He's used to being the one playing the games.

Indeed. But I have a feeling Baelish will shine later on. I hope.

Not sure who I like more now, Baelish or Varys. I am beginning to lean more towards Varys because I do think he genuinely cares about the greater good, however he defines it. Baelish is clearly out for himself almost exclusively. I see him as the kind of guy who would create civil wars just to advance himself. 

I've just seen the latest episode where Varys tells Tyrion about the riddle of the three men of power and a common swordsmen. I think it illustrates Varys'  mind set very well. "Power resides where me believe it resides" The spider may very well be maniulative, but he understands the politiking of the kingdoms and wears a masque for every occasion, to secure his own survival as well as the stability of the crown.

I liked the contrast between him and Eddard Stark, when Stark was imprisioned in the cells awaiting trial. The difference between a warrior and an actor.

[LPPrince]

"In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him to slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me - who lives and who dies?"

"It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword. And yet he is no one. He has neither crown nor gold nor favour of the gods, only a piece of pointed steel. That piece of steel is the power of life and death. Yet if it is the swordmen who rule us in truth, why do we pretend our kings hold the power? Why should a strong man with a sword ever obey a child king like Joffrey, or a wine-sodden oaf like his father? Because these child kings and drunken oafs can call other strong men, with other swords. [But] then these other swordsmen have the true power. Or do they? Whence came their swords? Why do they obey?

Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law . . . Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less. A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

[LTD]

Generally speaking I don't mind it if characters and their nature differs from what it is in books.
...As long as the new direction works. Pushover Renly and cultured, civilized courtisan super whöre Shae feel like archtypes from a dumber story. She ain't no camp follower, she ain't no camp follower at all; (

Confident, arrogant and cocky Renly I remember from books makes much more entertaining gamepiece than this poor SOB Tyrells manipulate as they please. For some reason HBO seems eager to underline this..this meekness of their Renly and how one dimensional it is; it was Margaret who acted regal and royal and ruler,  Renly just sat there. No way HBO's Renly is the  King most of the continent is eager to rally behind. He isn't young version of Robert invoking loyalty and love in all he meets.

I'm guessing ultimately this is just a case of " THIS ISNT WHAT I READ WAAAH" for me as well:wizard:


Brienne was utterly magnificient! If my imagination were a bit better this is how I would have pictured her!
Always felt like Theon's actor has great potential hiding there untapped, just waiting for things to get bleak enough.

Modifié par LTD, 16 avril 2012 - 08:34 .

[Brockololly]

My thoughts on the episode:

Probably the best of the season, in that scenes actually had some breathing room and it wasn't just cutting back and forth trying to cram everyone in.

• Seems like they got lazy with the opening credits- they show Dragonstone, yet we don't see it this episode?
• Sam is a lady's man
• Hodor?
• Maester Luwin is really great and his actor is doing a fantastic job
• Brienne is amazing. Perfect casting with Gwendoline Christie. I know she's only 6'3" but next to Cat she looked ginormous. Maybe its cause she has really long legs.
• "Yara"...yeah, not feeling it at all. She has a little snark in there but she's acting too broody and somber. Asha is snarky and cocky and in Theon's face about it, belittling him with a smile on her face. Yara just feels way too restrained and serious.
• Alfie Allen is doing amazing as Theon. The scene with the letter was great looking visually and did a nice job of getting at the conflict thats at the core of Theon. I can't wait to see more of Theon's story going forward...*cough*reek*cough*
• Shae is so completely worthless. I didn't really like her character in the book, but there she was fairly innocuous and was important for Tyrion. I have no clue what they're trying to do with her on the show. She is incredibly annoying and unlikeable and I have no clue why Tyrion would like that pig spawned trollop.
• Poor Sansa. Kind of a missed opportunity by not having the Hound chat with Sansa. Instead we get more of Shae the Funny ****. *sigh*
• Tyrion's plan was great, especially how they edited that together.
• RENLY IS NOT RIGHT
• Cersei is doing awesome this year alongside Tyrion.
• Theon's baptism was great
• Pycelle getting caught was great. I loved Tyrion giving the **** that second coin:lol:
• Yoren was a badass to the end. That whole scene felt way smaller than as it was in the book, but I guess thats the nature of TV. So when it was a whole small village on fire in the book, it made Arya rescuing Jaquen a bit more exicting than rescuing them from a small grass fire.

Addai67 wrote...
I really have no idea what they are doing with her.  In the books she seemed sweet and pliant and loving, not mysterious at all.  Early on in the TV series they decided she was international woman of mystery so they are making her out to be a noblewoman who's not very bright and not a very good prostitute or girlfriend.  Which makes it less understandable why Tyrion is taken with her.  I don't like the characterization at all.

Its nonsensical. Book Shae I always thought was meant as sort of harkening back to Tyrion's first wife really when he was a stupid kid. Book Shae was more or less somebody that was nice and pleasant, just kind of a normal, nice girl. Kind of simple really, there wasn't any ulterior motive with her. And I always thought thats sort of why Tyrion liked her- she wasn't some schemer but just a normal woman that he could relax around basically. Like you said, I have no idea what they're trying to do by making TV Shae all ****y and indignant all the time, making her some mysterious foreigner. Whats the point?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I do not quite get the strategy  behind Greyjoy's rationale other than some misplaced sense of arrogance. It makes much more sense to me if you want to secede, to help fellow  secessionists. Why in Westeros' name does he expect the Lannisters or  the Baratheons to ever accept him as independent king should any of them win and why does he think that they can't kick his ass again like they  already did? It's in his interest to prolong the fighting between the  Starks and the rest. Meh stupid. Robb was also quite foolish.

Thats basically it though- Balon is still entirely bitter over the Starks and Baratheons killing his sons and wiping the floor with him. Add to that the Ironborne ethos of "We do not sow" and they're just not going to ally with anybody. They'll make it on their own or they'll get destroyed and Balon is ok with that, especially when you add in the whole Drowned God religion and the Old Ways. They're not interested in politics, just taking what they see as theirs.

That said, the Ironborne fleet isn't insignificant in its power. At least as I recall in the books, they basically really messed up the Lannisters during their rebellion. And you've got badasses like Theon's uncles Victarion or Euron who we haven't seen on the show yet.

Modifié par Brockololly, 16 avril 2012 - 10:48 .

[twincast]

LTD wrote...

Generally speaking I don't mind it if characters and their nature differs from what it is in books.
...As long as the new direction works. Pushover Renly and cultured, civilized courtisan super whöre Shae feel like archtypes from a dumber story. She ain't no camp follower, she ain't no camp follower at all; (

Confident, arrogant and cocky Renly I remember from books makes much more entertaining gamepiece than this poor SOB Tyrells manipulate as they please For some reason HBO seems eager to underline this..this meekness of their Renly and how one dimensional it is; it was Margaret who acted regal and royal and ruler,  Renly just sat there. No way HBO's Renly is the King most of the continent is eager to rally behind. He isn't young version of Robert invoking loyalty and love in all he meets.

I agree re Renly on principle, but considering what little of a presence he is in the books I honestly can't say I care too much. Now, Shae on the other hand...

Brockololly wrote...
<snip>

Agreed on all accounts.

Brockololly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I really have no idea what they are doing with her.  In the books she seemed sweet and pliant and loving, not mysterious at all.  Early on in the TV series they decided she was international woman of mystery so they are making her out to be a noblewoman who's not very bright and not a very good prostitute or girlfriend.  Which makes it less understandable why Tyrion is taken with her.  I don't like the characterization at all.

Its nonsensical. Book Shae I always thought was meant as sort of harkening back to Tyrion's first wife really when he was a stupid kid. Book Shae was more or less somebody that was nice and pleasant, just kind of a normal, nice girl. Kind of simple really, there wasn't any ulterior motive with her. And I always thought thats sort of why Tyrion liked her- she wasn't some schemer but just a normal woman that he could relax around basically. Like you said, I have no idea what they're trying to do by making TV Shae all ****y and indignant all the time, making her some mysterious foreigner. Whats the point?

Well, not in the beginning at least. Anyway, I probably hate TV Shae more than any other character rewrite, even Cersei. Shae is a simple-minded **** that cares too much for pretty dresses and shiny accessories, not a stuck-up mysterious highborn wench from far-away lands who's whoring herself out for the thrill of adventure and digustedly looks down on (the non-sexual labor of) smallfolk and other servants. It makes zero sense that Tyrion would blindly trust a woman so obviously able of dishonesty.
On top of that it makes matters even worse that I'm extremely sensitive to the cacophony of thick German accents.

[Brockololly]

twincast wrote...
Well, not in the beginning at least.

True, true...

twincast wrote...
Anyway, I probably hate TV Shae more than any other character rewrite, even Cersei. Shae is a simple-minded **** that cares too much for pretty dresses and shiny accessories, not a stuck-up mysterious highborn wench from far-away lands who's whoring herself out for the thrill of adventure and digustedly looks down on (the non-sexual labor of) smallfolk and other servants. It makes zero sense that Tyrion would blindly trust a woman so obviously able of dishonesty.

True, it really makes me wonder where they're trying to go with her character, if anywhere at all.

Gif time!

http://puu.sh/pS1l
http://puu.sh/pRQf
http://puu.sh/pRZG
http://puu.sh/pRQa

My favorite
http://puu.sh/pRZO

Modifié par Brockololly, 17 avril 2012 - 01:11 .

[Addai]

Oh Tyrion...he defines awesome. D & D and GRRM were right when they decided, in their very first conversation about the series, that it had to be Peter Dinklage.

[Brockololly]

Theon's first draft:

[chunkyman]

I hate Theon soooo much after last night's episode. Mainly because he is a traitor to his second family.

[TJPags]

chunkyman wrote...

I hate Theon soooo much after last night's episode. Mainly because he is a traitor to his second family.

Oh, I don't have a problem with him betraying his "second family", per se.  That is, if he liked his actual family, and they cared for him.

But as he says, his impression is that Balon gave him away like a bad melon at a 2 for one sale.  And clearly, he is not impressed with the way he's being treated on his return. 

So my problem is that he's betraying a friend he likes, and who likes and respects him, for people who he believes treat him like crap.  That's BS, IMO.


Oh, and hate show-Shae.  HATE her.

[naughty99]

chunkyman wrote...

I hate Theon soooo much after last night's episode. Mainly because he is a traitor to his second family.

You really need to read the novels 

[TheBlackBaron]

I actually really liked Theon's parts last night. I think calling out Balon like that won him some sympathy points that he sorely needs, as it's hard to look favorably on him going along with the Ironborne plan to raid the coasts of the north. I get that they're bitter over their own failed civil war and only pay "The Iron Price" for everything, but it still seems an extraordinarily stupid move. Last time, after all, the Starks and the Baratheons let them stick around. I can't see whoever winds up winning things - whether its Renly, Robb, or especially Stannis or Joffery/whoever replaces Joffrey when he inevitably dies - doing that again.

Also - Varys. Goddamn Varys is awesome.

I commented on this last night in an SU, but Margaery saying that she'd be find bringing in Loras to get Renly started was...well, yeah, that was odd.

[Brockololly]

TJPags wrote...
Oh, I don't have a problem with him betraying his "second family", per se.  That is, if he liked his actual family, and they cared for him.

But as he says, his impression is that Balon gave him away like a bad melon at a 2 for one sale.  And clearly, he is not impressed with the way he's being treated on his return. 

So my problem is that he's betraying a friend he likes, and who likes and respects him, for people who he believes treat him like crap.  That's BS, IMO.

Thats part of what makes Theon a good character, IMO. I don't quite think there is a clear cut right or wrong in his situation.  He's just stuck in a truly crappy situation and is completely conflicted. Does he stay loyal to Robb and the Starks, but in the process likely forsake his flesh and blood family? Or does he betray Robb and the Starks and try to get in the good graces of his biological family? Because outside of Robb, I don't know how well loved Theon really was anyway amongst the Northmen.  And the books go into this aspect of Theon better than the show so far, but I think he really thinks he can become the heir to the Iron Islands, which if he stays in the North, he'd likely never become a lord or anything.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
I can't see whoever winds up winning things - whether its Renly, Robb, or especially Stannis or Joffery/whoever replaces  Joffrey when he inevitably dies - doing that again.
 

Who is to say the Ironborne don't end up winning?

Modifié par Brockololly, 17 avril 2012 - 02:20 .

[TJPags]

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Oh, I don't have a problem with him betraying his "second family", per se.  That is, if he liked his actual family, and they cared for him.

But as he says, his impression is that Balon gave him away like a bad melon at a 2 for one sale.  And clearly, he is not impressed with the way he's being treated on his return. 

So my problem is that he's betraying a friend he likes, and who likes and respects him, for people who he believes treat him like crap.  That's BS, IMO.

Thats part of what makes Theon a good character, IMO. I don't quite think there is a clear cut right or wrong in his situation.  He's just stuck in a truly crappy situation and is completely conflicted. Does he stay loyal to Robb and the Starks, but in the process likely forsake his flesh and blood family? Or does he betray Robb and the Starks and try to get in the good graces of his biological family? Because outside of Robb, I don't know how well loved Theon really was anyway amongst the Northmen.  And the books go into this aspect of Theon better than the show so far, but I think he really thinks he can become the heir to the Iron Islands, which if he stays in the North, he'd likely never become a lord or anything.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
I can't see whoever winds up winning things - whether its Renly, Robb, or especially Stannis or Joffery/whoever replaces  Joffrey when he inevitably dies - doing that again.
 

Who is to say the Ironborne don't end up winning?

I had a very long post addressing the second point (Greyjoy's plan) . . but it got eaten by that damn interwebs.  Long story short . . . it's not such a terrible plan, given that for Robb to attack it would leave him open to the Lannisters from the rear, or leave the Lannisters free to deal with Renly, and Stannis is no threat at the moment.  And the Greyjoys can always pull back to Pyke, and attack somewhere else by sea again.  They do have the largest naval force around, you know.  (the other post was more detailed . . .and better).

To the first point - the books do show Theon better.  We hardly know him in the show, and I don't think the concept that the Northmen despise him has been driven home so much in the show.  Show Theon . . .well, as I said - he's forsaking someone who likes and respects him in favor of people who he sees treating him like crap.  That's kinda dumb.

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai67 wrote...

Oh Tyrion...he defines awesome. D & D and GRRM were right when they decided, in their very first conversation about the series, that it had to be Peter Dinklage.

Is there any about that?

[Eski.Moe]

Theon is definitely much more sympathetic in the show. Couldn't stand the git in the books.
Also, my dislike for Shae mounts.

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

I had a very long post addressing the second point (Greyjoy's plan) . . but it got eaten by that damn interwebs.  Long story short . . . it's not such a terrible plan, given that for Robb to attack it would leave him open to the Lannisters from the rear, or leave the Lannisters free to deal with Renly, and Stannis is no threat at the moment.  And the Greyjoys can always pull back to Pyke, and attack somewhere else by sea again.  They do have the largest naval force around, you know.  (the other post was more detailed . . .and better).

It's dumb because they can never hold it- the North wouldn't stand for it- and at this point Robb is winning.  It's a very short term plan.

[Aeowyn]

I have to agree with all the points Brockololly made about this episode. I also wonder if Yoren's story took place in the books. I'm currently re-reading A Clash of Kings but don't recall that story, and he's already dead in the book.

[HoonDing]

Theon's the biggest loser in the entire series. He deserves everything that's coming to him.

[twincast]

No, he doesn't.

Which is part of why his story ends up being one of my favorites.

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I had a very long post addressing the second point (Greyjoy's plan) . . but it got eaten by that damn interwebs.  Long story short . . . it's not such a terrible plan, given that for Robb to attack it would leave him open to the Lannisters from the rear, or leave the Lannisters free to deal with Renly, and Stannis is no threat at the moment.  And the Greyjoys can always pull back to Pyke, and attack somewhere else by sea again.  They do have the largest naval force around, you know.  (the other post was more detailed . . .and better).

It's dumb because they can never hold it- the North wouldn't stand for it- and at this point Robb is winning.  It's a very short term plan.

Of course they can't hold it.  Why would they want to, really?  Especially in Winter.

But - they raid, pillage, plunder.  It builds up their wealth/goods, seriously weakens Robb.  Which means the North can't easily slap him down.  And a smart Lannister would let Robb run around after the Greyjoys while they deal with other things.  Or just hit Robb in the rear.  And eventually turn on Renly.

Which gives the Greyjoys another potential target to attack.

The Ironborn are raiders, not farmers and herders.  The North is empty right now, it's a great target.  Go in, steal, kill, etc . . . then leave when or if Robb turns around.