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HBO's Game of Thrones


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#2426
Brockololly

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My thoughts:

Winterfell:
The taking of Winterfell was pretty well done. I loved Bran's reaction to Theon barging into his bedroom; he's so dismissive of "Prince" Theon in the perfect sort of WTF manner. Nobody takes Theon seriously. Alfie Allen is killing it as Theon. Really fantastic. Sure, Rodrick getting killed by Theon isn't like the book, but it was worth it for their interaction at the end and Theon's botched execution. Although I do like the events and deception surrounding Rodrick's death in the books far more. Its just way more of a "OH ****! " moment in the books with everything else going on when it happens.

But Theon finally gets to kick a head! Just about 15 episodes too late!

My only problem is why Rodrick was all alone? Presumably he left Winterfell with men to take Torrhen's Square, so did he just come back to Winterfell by himself? Or are we supposed to think his men were killed?

Littlefinger and Arya:

Another scene thats not in the books, but I didn't mind it. Kind of forced tension though. I'm trying to think if Littlefinger ever saw Arya in King's Landing in season 1 or if they had any face to face interactions? Then again, even if Littlefinger did see Arya and knew it was her, I'd hope he'd keep it to himself or at least have the show not make it clear whether he knows its her.

Part of my major problem with Littlefinger's characterization on the show and many other characters for that matter, is they just bluntly announce their intentions to the world. Littlefinger in the books is a schemer on par or beyond Tyrion or Varys, yet in the show he comes across as blundering too often this season. Not recognizing Arya kind of adds to him being seen as not necessarily the brightest bulb in the box.

And of course, he seemingly has magical travel powers, going from the Stormlands to Harrenhal in record time.

Stuff North of the Wall:
Ygritte was great as was Halfhand. Loved seeing Ghost too. And Iceland is really beautiful and looks amazing.

Of course, if I were to complain about one thing, its the lack of truly epic landscapes. Iceland is great. But if you read the Frostfangs part of the book again, its about 10X more awesome, with the men of the Nightswatch actually scaling mountain cliffs with a real sense of verticality. Same thing that was missing with the Eyrie last season. And they ambush Ygritte and her wildling friends at night in the book, with the Night's Watch men basically calling out their kills before hand, scaling a giant, steep mountain in the dead of night and then striking. Its just a bit more mundane and matter of fact on the show, doing it on a slope at dusk.

My issue here is, again, forced tension and drama though. Its like they need some TV action quotient or something. But its obvious to me when they're doing it. Something like Jon not killing Ygritte and then her running away just makes Jon look like an indecisive, gullible idiot. Yes, he spares her in the book, but its a decisive act by Jon to do so. He tells her to go, he doesn't botch the execution and let her run and then go after her.

Nevermind that this whole thing makes Halfhand and his ranger seem like...not very good rangers? Shouldn't they be able to track Jon down pretty easily? Granted, next episode they could start it off with both Jon and Ygritte waking up and Jon hearing the other rangers coming, then tell Ygritte to run off. Or just have Qhorin be right there as Jon and Ygritte wake up and then have Jon let her go.

I loved Ygritte's little wiggle with her and Jon spooning. Haha. Superb casting.

Although, having been in some very cold environments in my time, why the hell is Halfhand the only person with a damn hat on?! Are the resty of the Night's Watch stupid? Come on!

Of note, just looking back through the books' Jon chapters, they have yet to include some important facts, like what Jon found at the Fist of the First Men or Halfhand telling Mormont what exactly Mance is planning. Wonder if they're just holding back on that for now?


And this:lol:
Posted Image


The Riot:
Another good scene for the most part. Tyrion finally actually getting truly, visibly angry with Joffrey was great.

Posted Image

A bit different from the book but it retains the feel of it plenty.  Its good to see the Hound getting something to do finally. And of course

-Spice King totally owned Dany. And thank goodness for that, putting he entitled ass in her place.Seriously, Dany sounds more and more deranged and entitled like her Beggar King brother Viserys every time she opens her mouth. Sure she is a noob when it comes to politics, but she comes across as an idiot. Yes, people are going to grovel at your feet because you have some dragons...but no army...and no allies...and you've never set foot on the land you claim is your's by right...and

- HEY GUYS! XARO XARO DUCKSAUCE IS THE RICHEST MAN IN QARTH! DID YOU HEAR? HE IS A SELF MADE MAN! DID YOU HEAR HE IS THE RICHEST MAN IN ALL OF QARTH? BECUASE XARO XARO DUCKSAUCE IS THE RICHEST MAN IN QARTH!

-Jaime is dyslexic? Did I forget that from the books?
Posted Image
Tywin is awesome.

- Arya and Amory's forced drama- seriously, Arya is running into a about a dozen Lannister men. Why does Amory Lorch say "Get out of the way!" instead of, oh, I don't know "Grab that girl!" Seriously. I'm just not getting the feel of terror and oppression from Harrenhal that I got from the books. Sure, the intro to Harrenhal was brutal but since then its been pretty easy sailing for Arya, which is not the case in the books as she has to toil in the kitchens under Wease and work her way up to cupbearer. Nevermind, we don't have Vargo Hoat and the Bloody Mummers or Rorge and Biter around it would seem.

And killing off Amory Lorch that way means no bear pit! But I guess having him die like that in front of Tywin will cause Tywin to leave next episode I'd guess, making it so Arya can't call Tywin's name to Jaqen.

-Robb's stupidity. In the books his youthful stupidity and thinking with his **** and not his head makes more sense. He's a young guy who is off at war by himself and falls in love. But his scenes with "Talisa" are so average and generic its painful. But he did completely get ****blocked by Cat:

Posted Image
Daaaawwww.

Problem is, in the books, he falls in love when he's on his own. So are we supposed to believe he's going to fall for "Talisa" while Cat is right around? When she's already reminded him of his promise to Walder Frey?  It works in the book because we're seeing things from Cat's POV and she goes back to RIverrun, not to Robb's camp. SO when Robb comes back, his romantic status comes as a surprise. Again, it kind of makes the TV characters look really stupid.


THE BASTARD OF BOLTON:
My reaction when Roose name dropped the Bastard at the Dreadfort?
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:o:O:O:O
RAMSAY!

- Hello Osha! :o

- Dany's Dragon Kidnapping:
Probably one of the bigger divergences from the books, but I can bet its Pyat Pree that stole them, thus giving Dany reason to go to the House of the Undying. But it seems like forced TV drama again. Problem is though now, why can't anybody in the future just pull the "Steal the dragons" card? Its something GRRM hasn't resorted to in the books as of yet. Let alone killing all of Dany's Dothraki buddies. Are any of her Khaalasar still alive? Just killing off some of these more minor characters left and right kind of desensitizes you to character deaths on the show it seems- characters dying isn't the exception, you're almost expecting it every episode. Which I think might hurt some of the more meaningful BIG deaths later on in the series.

But where the hell was Jorah during this whole thing?

-Oh and I guess Shae was in this episode. Maybe Arya will say her name. Pretty please?

Modifié par Brockololly, 07 mai 2012 - 11:15 .


#2427
twincast

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Oh, I'd be fine with spreading her story out to give the others' more time to breathe, making it unrecognizable however I am not okay with.

#2428
twincast

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Brockololly wrote...
- Dany's Dragon Kidnapping:
Probably one of the bigger divergences from the books, but I can bet its Pyat Pree that stole them, thus giving Dany reason to go to the House of the Undying. But it seems like forced TV drama again. Problem is though now, why can't anybody in the future just pull the "Steal the dragons" card? Its something GRRM hasn't resorted to in the books as of yet. Let alone killing all of Dany's Dothraki buddies. Are any of her Khaalasar still alive? Just killing off some of these more minor characters left and right kind of desensitizes you to character deaths on the show it seems- characters dying isn't the exception, you're almost expecting it every episode. Which I think might hurt some of the more meaningful BIG deaths later on in the series.

But where the hell was Jorah during this whole thing?

-Oh and I guess Shae was in this episode. Maybe Arya will say her name. Pretty please?

Yeah, I'm thinking this is how they'll get her into the House of the Undying (which is apparently a huge tower now) on the show. Meh I say.
And yeah, a couple came into the courtyard right after her.

Good question, probably somewhere in a hole with Doreah.

夢中

#2429
TJPags

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Brock, very nice recap/summary/critique.

Let me just say, on that line, that most of my complaints about changes are in the line of "forced tension", as Brock noted. Rodrick shows up alone? Dumb, what's the point of showing up alone? And so damn quickly - it's 40 leagues to Torren Square, remember (120 miles). Yet he's there the morning of the raid?

Amory Lorch - exactly!!! "Someone grab her!!!" He can't be that dumb . . nobody can be that stupid and know how to breathe.

Sure, the Spice King setting Dany down was fine, but they don't need to create a reason for her to go to the House of the Undying - she has one. Nobody else will help her, so she tries that. It's what happened in the books, without the "dragon-napping".

Littlefinger's expanded role is starting to annoy me. Shouldn't he be on his way to the Vale and Lyssa by now?

The books have plenty of tension. Perhaps it's too subtle for TV viewers in the opinion of the powers that be?

#2430
HoonDing

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I still don't get why Jeyne Westerling was replaced with Talisa. What is a 'nobleborn' from Volantis even playing nurse for in Westeros? Unless it'll turn out she really is a spy.

Modifié par HoonDing, 07 mai 2012 - 11:56 .


#2431
Aeowyn

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Yeah I don't know what the hell they've planned to do with this season.

#2432
Mass effect 2 forever

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I don't think the Targarian (sp) is a very good actress. She was kinda okay as the innocent pawn played by her brother. But that sort of a character has to develop charisma and become a stronger manipulator in order to work. Reading the Song of Ice and Fire wiki seems to confirm that view esp if the series pans out like that. Although both are meant to happen she just, as somebody else said, sounds pretty silly whenever she opens her mouth and appears to act more out of manic desperation than determination. She lacks the sheer presence that such a character should have and its not even that shes a bit short. Its a bit disappointing because the premise of  a royal female exile trying to raise an army and trying to reclaim the throne is a really interesting premise especially since I studied the Jacobites at university.

Yes and as somebody said. Not a lot happens. You could have easily begun the first episode outside the gates of Qarth(age) without any trouble but they dragged it for ages.

Modifié par Mass effect 2 forever, 08 mai 2012 - 12:33 .


#2433
TJPags

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To defend Dany (yea, yea, I know . . . but anyway):

She's about 18 (14 or 15 in the books). She's been a begger living on other people's charity all her life. She's been dominated by her brother all her life. She's been on the run all her life.

When exactly was she supposed to develop charisma, presence, an ability to manipulate people, etc? She's had no power whatsoever over anyone. Anyone she annoys could have easily sold her out, meaning her death. Who is she supposed to have manipulated? By way of background, Targaryan's generally marry family members - as the last two left, Viserys intended to marry Dany . . .she he kept her even more isolated, innocent, and powerless.

She got a taste of power, of leadership, when she was married to Drogo - and then lost it all with his death. The entire khalasar took off and left her, his bloodriders would have killed her, any of the new Khals would have killed her, or "just" dragged her back to the Dosh Khaleen.

Yes, she's shrill, she's naive, she doesn't know how to manipulate people. Give her some time to grow, people.

#2434
Inquisitor Recon

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TJPags wrote...

To defend Dany (yea, yea, I know . . . but anyway):

She's about 18 (14 or 15 in the books). She's been a begger living on other people's charity all her life. She's been dominated by her brother all her life. She's been on the run all her life.

When exactly was she supposed to develop charisma, presence, an ability to manipulate people, etc? She's had no power whatsoever over anyone. Anyone she annoys could have easily sold her out, meaning her death. Who is she supposed to have manipulated? By way of background, Targaryan's generally marry family members - as the last two left, Viserys intended to marry Dany . . .she he kept her even more isolated, innocent, and powerless.

She got a taste of power, of leadership, when she was married to Drogo - and then lost it all with his death. The entire khalasar took off and left her, his bloodriders would have killed her, any of the new Khals would have killed her, or "just" dragged her back to the Dosh Khaleen.

Yes, she's shrill, she's naive, she doesn't know how to manipulate people. Give her some time to grow, people.


Still, you think she would have figured it out by now. I have this image of her going to a Burger King or something and starting with the whole "Don't you know who I am! Blood and fire! Blood of ancient... blah blah blah..." when she doesn't get a free burger (or horse heart) to eat.

#2435
Costin_Razvan

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Dany was much better in the books.

#2436
TJPags

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Dany was much better in the books.



She was -and is - much better in the books.  Could be the fact she's not constantly onscreen, so she has time to develop when we're not watching.

@Recon - yes, I understand.  But she's a kid.  She's never had anything.  She had a taste of power with Drogo, which was brutally taken from her.  She led her people into a wasteland where she almost died.  She's a begger again.  She's trying to use power, but has none.  She needs to find power, then she can use it to manipulate, etc.  Then she won't need to be shrill, she can be commanding.

Again - give her some time.

#2437
Costin_Razvan

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Seriously I am starting to curse at the mention of GoT, and hearing from people who know jack **** of the books about how awesome it is.

Oh yeah, it's better then most stuff we see on TV, but the books are MUCH better and for crying out loud HBO did do Season 1 well! So they can do it but chose not to! That is without counting some issues here and there but nowhere near the monstrosities that they are pulling off in Season 2.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 mai 2012 - 01:03 .


#2438
Mass effect 2 forever

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TJPags wrote...

To defend Dany (yea, yea, I know . . . but anyway):

She's about 18 (14 or 15 in the books). She's been a begger living on other people's charity all her life. She's been dominated by her brother all her life. She's been on the run all her life.

When exactly was she supposed to develop charisma, presence, an ability to manipulate people, etc? She's had no power whatsoever over anyone. Anyone she annoys could have easily sold her out, meaning her death. Who is she supposed to have manipulated? By way of background, Targaryan's generally marry family members - as the last two left, Viserys intended to marry Dany . . .she he kept her even more isolated, innocent, and powerless.

She got a taste of power, of leadership, when she was married to Drogo - and then lost it all with his death. The entire khalasar took off and left her, his bloodriders would have killed her, any of the new Khals would have killed her, or "just" dragged her back to the Dosh Khaleen.

Yes, she's shrill, she's naive, she doesn't know how to manipulate people. Give her some time to grow, people.


Oh no, I'am not saying the beginning when she is like that. But when you started getting her handmaidens telling her to be this temptress n spinning Kal Drogo into offering to invade the Seven Kingdoms, pushing herself thorugh that ritual. All of those things are out of touch with the characters stage presence and if they follow the books then it'll become even less beleivable. I could get her finding manipulating or convincing a Qarth merchant king more difficult than a Dothraki horse lord but the character is supposed to a strong, young nieve and inexperienced person. Such a characters meant to have suggestions of greatness but she just doens't convey that. Shes more like a spoilt little princess whos living in her own mind half the time. I really think thye just went with a pretty face over somebody that could act.

Writing such a character is a lot easier. Especailly since you can write their internal thoughts down and what not. I think I might see if I can lend or buy the Ice n Fire books the TV series has really encouraged me.

#2439
chunkyman

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Seriously I am starting to curse at the mention of GoT, and hearing from people who know jack **** of the books about how awesome it is.

Oh yeah, it's better then most stuff we see on TV, but the books are MUCH better and for crying out loud HBO did do Season 1 well! So they can do it but chose not to! That is without counting some issues here and there but nowhere near the monstrosities that they are pulling off in Season 2.



Err... Well, I think season 2 is awesome. :unsure:

#2440
Mass effect 2 forever

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TJPags wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Dany was much better in the books.



She was -and is - much better in the books.  Could be the fact she's not constantly onscreen, so she has time to develop when we're not watching.

@Recon - yes, I understand.  But she's a kid.  She's never had anything.  She had a taste of power with Drogo, which was brutally taken from her.  She led her people into a wasteland where she almost died.  She's a begger again.  She's trying to use power, but has none.  She needs to find power, then she can use it to manipulate, etc.  Then she won't need to be shrill, she can be commanding.

Again - give her some time.


No. I mean the actress doesn't convince me. Its not that shes from a position of weakness so can't get stuff done. Thats understandable its that the actress just isn't to my tastes and doesn't get the balance right between youth and potential.

#2441
TJPags

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Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Dany was much better in the books.



She was -and is - much better in the books.  Could be the fact she's not constantly onscreen, so she has time to develop when we're not watching.

@Recon - yes, I understand.  But she's a kid.  She's never had anything.  She had a taste of power with Drogo, which was brutally taken from her.  She led her people into a wasteland where she almost died.  She's a begger again.  She's trying to use power, but has none.  She needs to find power, then she can use it to manipulate, etc.  Then she won't need to be shrill, she can be commanding.

Again - give her some time.


No. I mean the actress doesn't convince me. Its not that shes from a position of weakness so can't get stuff done. Thats understandable its that the actress just isn't to my tastes and doesn't get the balance right between youth and potential.



Ahh, well, I can't do anything about the actress.  Posted Image

I get your point on the actress, though - she's got the looks perfect, IMO, but yea, she's not yet living up to my expectations.  That could be part of the problem.

On another note, I do highly recommend the books.    Posted Image

#2442
Brockololly

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TJPags wrote...
The books have plenty of tension. Perhaps it's too subtle for TV viewers in the opinion of the powers that be?

Yeah, the book chapters almost always end on little cliffhangers that would translate well to TV. I remember many of the chapters in A Game of Thrones being like this and most of the other books too.

I think it comes down to many of the purely invented for TV storylines and scenes more loosely adapated not holding up to much scrutiny- like Amory Lorch chasing Arya and not yelling for help or Jorah mysteriously absent when the dragons are stolen or Rodrick seemingly coming to Winterfell alone?

And just because:
Posted Image

Would have been nice to see Joffrey's lame attempt at charity precipitate the riot, flinging the gold at the mother with the dead baby like the book. Or how the crowd was shouting brother****** at Cersei. Maybe they were and I didn't hear it. Little things like that.

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
Writing
such a character is a lot easier. Especailly since you can write their
internal thoughts down and what not. I think I might see if I can lend
or buy the Ice n Fire books the TV series has really encouraged me.


I think thats the biggest problem with the show- so much of the internal thoughts you get from point of view characters in the books are lost or stated outright and very simply on the show, making characters seem kind of dense. Or non POV characters in the books like Littlefinger who remain somewhat mysterious in the books, have their motivations made pretty obvious on the show.

Modifié par Brockololly, 08 mai 2012 - 01:30 .


#2443
Guest_FemaleMageFan_*

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Modifié par FemaleMageFan, 08 mai 2012 - 02:03 .


#2444
Addai

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We're doing a lot of complaining.  There were some great moments in the episode.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#2445
Inquisitor Recon

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Plus 5 scumbaggery points for Theon Greyjoy for the totally botched execution. Not one but three slices plus a few kicks.

No coming back from this.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 08 mai 2012 - 04:06 .


#2446
LPPrince

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You KNOW Rodrik felt those hacks at his neck. At least the first one. That was a horribly executed execution(pun intended).

#2447
TheBlackBaron

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Addai67 wrote...

I just don't know. These are the times when I wish I hadn't read the books. I would be enjoying the series so much more, not knowing.


I'm doing it backwards, essentially. Watching the series, then catching up on the books in the intervals. 

Looking at this thread, sometimes I think I'm happier for it. :?

#2448
Sable Rhapsody

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TheBlackBaron wrote...
Looking at this thread, sometimes I think I'm happier for it. :?


I usually judge book adaptations (whether TV or movie) completely separate from their source material, and I think it saves me a lot of nerdraging.  I find the portrayals of a lot of characters very different in the TV show from how I imagined them when reading the books, but it's not a BAD thing.  I'd rather GoT be a good show that plays a little fast and loose with the plot than an average show that just translates the books shot for shot to the screen. 

#2449
Aeowyn

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Looking at this thread, sometimes I think I'm happier for it. :?


I usually judge book adaptations (whether TV or movie) completely separate from their source material, and I think it saves me a lot of nerdraging.  I find the portrayals of a lot of characters very different in the TV show from how I imagined them when reading the books, but it's not a BAD thing.  I'd rather GoT be a good show that plays a little fast and loose with the plot than an average show that just translates the books shot for shot to the screen. 


I disagree. They had good source material, and a good script, why should they change things for the sake of changing things? They know that a lot of their viewers are people who have read the books.

It's little things for me really, like Myrcella. In the book she's the strong one who doesn't cry when she's sent off to Dorne. Yet on the show she's crying? Why? I think that scene really gave us something to learn about Myrcella since we don't get any POV chapters with her.

#2450
Sable Rhapsody

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Aeowyn wrote... 
I disagree. They had good source material, and a good script, why should they change things for the sake of changing things? They know that a lot of their viewers are people who have read the books.

It's little things for me really, like Myrcella. In the book she's the strong one who doesn't cry when she's sent off to Dorne. Yet on the show she's crying? Why? I think that scene really gave us something to learn about Myrcella since we don't get any POV chapters with her.


They have to balance between viewers who have read the books and viewers who haven't.  And one of the first things that happens in adapting a book to any other medium is a lot of compression.  I imagine that's why Dany's plot changes happened, to push her toward the House of the Undying faster.  Same thing with Theon taking Winterfell halfway through the season when it doesn't fall until the end of the second book.

The same compression, unfortunately, happens with the characters.  There simply isn't the time to show every facet of every character like you get in the book, especially with the POV characters.  And I do have to admit, the little things like Myrcella don't bother me as much.  Probably since I haven't reread the books for a while.